Twists that got you again on a re-read

[A wilding]

Welcome to the board Snark_Tamer.

The crannogman was Howland Reed (Meera and Jojen's father); the wild brother was Brandon Stark; the quiet brother was Ned; the girl the quiet brother was attracted to was Ashara Dayne (the Daynes have a similar look to the Targaryens), which may be partly why some people in Westeros think Ashara was Jon's mother.

As you say, what happened may have been why Howland was one of Ned's closest confidants during the rebellion. They both had a common interest in protecting Lyanna. And very likely Howland knows Jon's true parentage (and might even have told his children).

[Sailor's Wife]

This is how I understood the whole fostering of Robert Arryn.

Everyone can agree that Robert Arryn is a weenie and needs some toughening, the decision to foster him and get him away from his babying mother is brought up and discussed.

Cersei convinces King Robert to send him to Tywin, not an unforeseeable suggestion considering she recommends her family for planty of other honors, like squiring for the King ( also a clever move to keep the Vale/Jon Arryn in line when she finally rids herself of King Bob). Robert Baratheon and Cersei fully intend to send little robert to the rock to foster with tywin.

However due to his investigations with Stannis, Jon Arryn decided (probably without confiding in anyone but Stannis at this point) that it would be safer to have little sweet robin foster with Stannis on Dragonstone, i.e. as far from Lannister hostage taking as possible.

Jon Arryn would most likely NOT have been telling his arguably unstable wife all his investigations and theories. Nor would he want to draw any attention to his mistrust of Lannisters until he has solid proof, so he wouldn't tell King Robert he wasn't going to send him to his good-father either.

Therefore, everyone talking about where the snot-nosed little squirt is fostering truly believes what they've said. Only Stannis was in on Jon Arryn's true intent though.

Edit*-- ALSO, Lysa was definitely not intending to send little Robert to anyone. Not to say she wasn't scheming with Littlefinger to begin with but it is my belief that the issue of fostering the boy is what actually propels Lysa into murdering Jon Arryn.

on a side note here: Anyone else suspect that Robert Arryn is actually the bastard son of Lysa and Littlefinger? I mean he is described as small and sickly, which I believe is the way LF himself is described as a boy....

[Sailor's Wife]

I have also wondered about Robert being Littlefinger's true heir. And worried at what point LF might be ready to do him in--that would then make him the cursed kinslayer.

[Snark_Tamer]

Thanks, A Wildling! I've been reading various threads and loving all the theories, so I DID manage to catch that the woman was Ashara Dayne (and that everyone else seemed to already KNOW this was the Stark family of Ned's generation *rolls eyes* (just when I think I'm clever)) but I hadn't realized the Crannogman was literally Howland Reed!

It's nice to be able to believe the secret of Jon's parentage didn't necessarily die with Ned! (though there is also the theory about that cat!)

I also wondered about Littlefinger potentially being Robert Arryn's real father, though I think I thought that early and the timing only works if Lysa was cheating on Jon Arryn. (because she miscarriaged about the time she married and Robin is what, 6? and it was a double wedding, so she has been married at least long enough for Catelyn's first born to be 15)

Anything that will curse Littlefinger, though, is good... erm...

[JLE]

One twist that got me:

(1) How long was Theon Greyjoy in charge of Winterfell?

(2) How long would it take for men to march from the Dreadfort to Winterfell?

(3) How long would it have taken for Ramsay Bolton, whether in disguise as "Reek" or not, to actually get to the Dreadfort, organise and order a small army to march, and bring them back in fit condition to fight?

Because I think the Bolton troops that torched Winterfell, after destroying Ser Rodrik and his relief force (which otherwise would have retaken Winterfell), must have been on the way BEFORE Theon Greyjoy captured Winterfell - before Ramsay/Reek was free. And thus, they could only have been sent by Roose, with instructions to blag their way into Winterfell as friends and torch the place (possibly intending to rescue Ramsay/Reek from the dungeons en route.) When Ramsay turns up alive, having been freed by Theon, it just plays right into their hands, but they were already on the way there.

And if Ser Rodrik had had any of the same suspicions that I have, then the Bolton troops' surprise attack on his forces would *not* have been a surprise, and thus Rodrik's numbers would have won the day - Winterfell would have been retaken safely - and Ramsay would be either dead, or back in jail awaiting execution, his disguise blown, and the Boltons' treachery uncovered.

(And let's not forget that Ramsay orders the Freys to be kept safe even while murdering the rest of the city. And that Roose had just married Fat Walda.)

Yes, I really think the Bolton/Frey treachery goes back THAT far. To the extent that, if Robb had fulfilled his promise of marriage to a Frey daughter, the Red Wedding would still have happened... the only difference would have been that it would have been his own wedding rather than Edmure Tully's. He would still have been murdered at it.

The whole kingdom thinks Robb a fool for betraying his sworn promise and marrying Jeyne Westerling - but I think had he kept it, it would have led to his death anyway, and in fact the impulse to marry Jeyne may even have, completely unknowingly, come close to *saving* him rather than destroying him, if he hadn't bothered trying to bring the Freys back onside. But only if he could have brought his army back to the north without having to pass the Freys (so he would have had to pass the Bloody Gate - no difficulty with the Blackfish onside - go through the Vale of Arryn, and return by ship through White Harbor.)

[Snark_Tamer]

Didn't Theon SEND Reek out to get the troops? (promised him a woman for it). And Theon had fairly given up when the troops came back, though of course they were fighting for themselves and not Theon...

I don't think that makes the likelihood of the Boltons always conspiring, less, and you may be onto something that the Red Wedding was always going to happen that way, it was just meant to be Robb's wedding (if Lannister sent a letter offering Frey a better deal)--Catelyn often says Frey will sell out if it's in his best interest. A man like Lannister will know that.

Okay... my notice for TODAY is from Melisandre--talking to Stannis with Davos there. She is trying to get Stannis to let her sacrifice Edric:

"Give me the boy, Your Grace. It is the surer way [than leeches to get his blood]. The better way. Give me the boy and I shall wake the stone dragon."

and then further down the page

"Your brother's blood," Melisandre said. "A king's blood. Only a king's blood can wake the stone dragon."

This is all in support of my theory Melisandre is 'seeing' right, but interpretting poorly. Because across the narrow sea... we have one, two, three dead kings (Viserys, Drogo, Raego) and three woken stone dragons. She thinks it's all about Dragonstone...

[Sailor's Wife]

This is all in support of my theory Melisandre is 'seeing' right, but interpretting poorly. Because across the narrow sea... we have one, two, three dead kings (Varys, Drogo, Raego) and three woken stone dragons. She thinks it's all about Dragonstone...

[Sailor's Wife]

I think you mean Viserys, right, since Varys the Spider is alive and well. I had never thought about these three kings death consistent with three live dragons--interesting.

[Snark_Tamer]

Of course I do. I get typing too fast sometimes.

[Rhaegarsjoy]

Originally, I didn't realise that Brown Ben Plumm was actually brown.

LOL

[Rhaegarsjoy]

Error

[Breadfort]

The Hound to Arya: "...maybe we'll even be in time for your uncle's BLOODY WEDDING." I don't believe Sandor was in on the RW. I do believe the wording was deliberate. More of an "I see what ya did there" moment than a twist, but still...

[Starkbringer]

In re-reading ASOS I realized that As Jamie, Cleos and Brienne are gloing down the red fork they see a girl watering her horse at the river and when the girl sees them she shrinks back into the woods. That girl was Arya I think. They were in the same vacinity for awhile and just kept missing each other.

[The Crow]

Foreshadowing is not supposed to be exactly specific. All that matters is that a king is slain at a feast, and the head of a wolf is attached to his body. He looks to Dany with 'mute appeal' -- she's the last hope.

wouldn't say last hope, there is still Stannis,

[PatrickStormborn]

wouldn't say last hope, there is still Stannis,

Stannis promised to kill Robb. I'd hardly call him the "last hope".

[Dragonmaster]

This is all in support of my theory Melisandre is 'seeing' right, but interpretting poorly. Because across the narrow sea... we have one, two, three dead kings (Viserys, Drogo, Raego) and three woken stone dragons. She thinks it's all about Dragonstone...

However, in the HotU Dany sees "From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire" this seems to fit the stone dragons on Dragonstone and one of them coming to life (which I sincerely hope doesn't happen).

Another thing which doesn't seem to be highlighted in a topic here is the ...drink from the cup of ice...drink from the cup of fire... I wonder what this could mean.

Most shocking though, and I don't where to put this, is a passage in the last Bran chapter in aCoK. Summer looks at the burning of Winterfell and "in the sky he saw a great winged snake whose roar was a river of flame". This is a perfect description of a dragon! How the hell can Summer see a dragon at Winterfell?! Could this mean Dany's dragons are not the only ones?

[LAJN]

Sorry, finally had a chance to look this up, for your interest. I'll get the thread reference too.

ETA: http://asoiaf.wester...ding-or-did-it/

That analysis is symptomatic of the ridiculous speculation which goes on a lot here. Might as well write fanfiction. That vision is the RW.

[LAJN]

Didn't Theon SEND Reek out to get the troops? (promised him a woman for it). And Theon had fairly given up when the troops came back, though of course they were fighting for themselves and not Theon...

I don't think that makes the likelihood of the Boltons always conspiring, less, and you may be onto something that the Red Wedding was always going to happen that way, it was just meant to be Robb's wedding (if Lannister sent a letter offering Frey a better deal)--Catelyn often says Frey will sell out if it's in his best interest. A man like Lannister will know that.

Okay... my notice for TODAY is from Melisandre--talking to Stannis with Davos there. She is trying to get Stannis to let her sacrifice Edric:

and then further down the page

This is all in support of my theory Melisandre is 'seeing' right, but interpretting poorly. Because across the narrow sea... we have one, two, three dead kings (Viserys, Drogo, Raego) and three woken stone dragons. She thinks it's all about Dragonstone...

Indeed, Dany woke the dragons from their stone eggs. That's why I believe she is the fulfilment of the prophecy.

[Julian Rayne]

Not a twist, but I didn't catch the irony of "I hope your princess dies" until my second read.

[BloodWhiteRose]

"The longer you hide, the sterner the penance. You'll be sewing all through winter. When the spring thaw comes, they will find your body with a needle still locked tight between your frozen fingers." - Jon Snow, to Arya in AGOT.

This worries me.

He didn't say "...they will find your dead body...", so I am staying optimistic.

Arya's Needle was the only possession she refused to throw away, maybe Needle is locked tight in her hand?