saillias Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 why are they even still alive on the show. I mean does the tv show still need these guys, especially when they have Euron coming up next season. Good question, I think the show runners have misjudged the balance between hope/joy and the tragedy and misery. They've scrapped several story lines and scenes that gave readers hope/satisfaction in this part of the story, and focused on miserable ones. Their formula for the narrative is one with more gratuitous violence and mustache-twirling villains. And ugh at the bolded. I'm not looking forward to this character's arc, book or show. Why? He just seems to be another mad, omniscient psychopath. We clearly needed another. Oh and this one's magic too. :ack: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eltharion21 Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 Good question, I think the show runners have misjudged the balance between hope/joy and the tragedy and misery. They've scrapped several story lines and scenes that gave readers hope/satisfaction in this part of the story, and focused on miserable ones. Their formula for the narrative is one with more gratuitous violence and mustache-twirling villains. And ugh at the bolded. I'm not looking forward to this character's arc, book or show. Why? He just seems to be another mad, omniscient psychopath. We clearly needed another. Oh and this one's magic too. :ack: :agree: 100% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sifth Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 Good question, I think the show runners have misjudged the balance between hope/joy and the tragedy and misery. They've scrapped several story lines and scenes that gave readers hope/satisfaction in this part of the story, and focused on miserable ones. Their formula for the narrative is one with more gratuitous violence and mustache-twirling villains. And ugh at the bolded. I'm not looking forward to this character's arc, book or show. Why? He just seems to be another mad, omniscient psychopath. We clearly needed another. Oh and this one's magic too. :ack: I understand this universe is filled with Grey characters, but sadly there are some universally bad people in this universe, Euron, The Boltons and most of the Freys are among them. So the moral of the tv show will apparently be these guys win, lol They even made Stannis, one of the most complex characters into a complete monster this season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Attitude Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 Stannis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorpHDoc Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 They will lose the battle, Stannis will survive. The death of Stannis in the show was very ambiguous, we do not really know whether he is dead or not, and we will not find out until the next season. Plus, what I think is that GRRM told D&D to not show Stannis's death in the show and he lives in the books after the lost battle. But D&D decided to give us a little cliffhanger just for fun ;-) What I would like to see is this: Brianne takes Stannis to Castle Black to take the black. And at the end he becomes the Lord Commander (oh the irony). Will Brianne meet Sansa on the way? Perhaps. Maybe they will go to the CB together and then send Davos for rescue mission to find Rickon and Bran. Or maybe Sansa will be found by Northmen and will make her "Queen of the North" (please, please!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Attitude Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 They will lose the battle, Stannis will survive. The death of Stannis in the show was very ambiguous, we do not really know whether he is dead or not, and we will not find out until the next season. Plus, what I think is that GRRM told D&D to not show Stannis's death in the show and he lives in the books after the lost battle. But D&D decided to give us a little cliffhanger just for fun ;-) What I would like to see is this: Brianne takes Stannis to Castle Black to take the black. And at the end he becomes the Lord Commander (oh the irony). Will Brianne meet Sansa on the way? Perhaps. Maybe they will go to the CB together and then send Davos for rescue mission to find Rickon and Bran. Or maybe Sansa will be found by Northmen and will make her "Queen of the North" (please, please!) You're mixing up show and books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadows and dust Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 You're mixing up show and books. You don't think they'd go from Winterfell to the Wall by way of the Eyrie? No imagination at all :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorpHDoc Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 You're mixing up show and books. Oh yes, I did not make myself clear. The first line was about the book, that is Stannis will lose the battle of winterfell, but will survive and somehow end up on the Wall. AND in the show, he will get picked up by Brianne etc. I think at this point we need to use the show to make predictions for WoW. As we know, GRRM told D&D about Shireen, thus it is more than likely he told them about the results of Battle of Winterfell and Stannis's future (at least the immediate future). We know the show differs from the book quite considerably, but the results of this battle cannot be changed as it would lead to complete change of future events. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Ghost of Someone Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 I hate to say it, but Wyman Manderly took a slashing to his throat, yes, multiple chins but he is bleed purfusely and i fear he is a dead man. That sucks but his physical condition is a cliffhanger for sure. This will all but guaranty the Manderlys will attack the Freys once outside the gates. The eventual winner of the Battle of Winterfell, Rickon Stark, King of the North. ps - What could the Lannisters and or Tyrells do about it either? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ismaris Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 Good question, I think the show runners have misjudged the balance between hope/joy and the tragedy and misery. They've scrapped several story lines and scenes that gave readers hope/satisfaction in this part of the story, and focused on miserable ones. Their formula for the narrative is one with more gratuitous violence and mustache-twirling villains. I absolutely agree. The complexity and beauty of George's plots are that they don't align along traditional lines of good vs. evil, including those attendant tropes of mastermind, invincible mustache-twirlers always being a step ahead of the "good guys." Meaning, we are just as likely to see Ramsay suffer a meaningless, haphazard death as we are Ned Stark. In the arc of show Ramsay, however, the authors have essentially forsaken the original tilt of George's narrative, and devolved into yet another clichéd villain story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Second Foundation Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 Stannis will probably win against both Ramsay and Roose in the next book. Many good arguments in favor of Stannis's victory at the Battle of Ice in the books have been made on this thread. Stannis seems likely to survive long enough to encounter Daenerys, which is a part of the future revealed by the House of the Undying. Additional foreshadowing of such an encounter comes from a dream that Daenerys has in ASoS that seems to show glimpses of a second decisive showdown at the Trident between Baratheon and Targaryen, with the outcome reversed this time (this dovetails quite well with the idea that Daenerys slays the lie that Stannis is AAR). The show producers probably cut out Stannis's future book role and instead pulled a plot arc of Sansa and Baelish winning the northmen to their side earlier in the timeline to fill the gap left. The sample chapters from TWoW demonstrate that in the books Littlefinger's plans in the Vale are at a much earlier stage than the show "equivalent." The show basically skipped most of LF's Vale maneuvering and he is almost ready to bring an army into the north (which may or may not happen in the books). A lot of the future book material is probably going to be condensed very intensely in the remaining seasons of the show while playing out much more slowly, and with far more detail and nuance, in the books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ismaris Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 Stannis will probably win against both Ramsay and Roose in the next book. Many good arguments in favor of Stannis's victory at the Battle of Ice in the books have been made on this thread. Stannis seems likely to survive long enough to encounter Daenerys, which is a part of the future revealed by the House of the Undying. Additional foreshadowing of such an encounter comes from a dream that Daenerys has in ASoS that seems to show glimpses of a second decisive showdown at the Trident between Baratheon and Targaryen, with the outcome reversed this time (this dovetails quite well with the idea that Daenerys slays the lie that Stannis is AAR). The show producers probably cut out Stannis's future book role and instead pulled a plot arc of Sansa and Baelish winning the northmen to their side earlier in the timeline to fill the gap left. The sample chapters from TWoW demonstrate that in the books Littlefinger's plans in the Vale are at a much earlier stage than the show "equivalent." The show basically skipped most of LF's Vale maneuvering and he is almost ready to bring an army into the north (which may or may not happen in the books). A lot of the future book material is probably going to be condensed very intensely in the remaining seasons of the show while playing out much more slowly, and with far more detail and nuance, in the books. I really hope that you are right. I will be disappointed if the books follow the same plot as S6. Kind of an unceremonious end to the Stannis arc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Ghost of Someone Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 They will lose the battle, Stannis will survive. The death of Stannis in the show was very ambiguous, we do not really know whether he is dead or not, and we will not find out until the next season. Plus, what I think is that GRRM told D&D to not show Stannis's death in the show and he lives in the books after the lost battle. But D&D decided to give us a little cliffhanger just for fun ;-) What I would like to see is this: Brianne takes Stannis to Castle Black to take the black. And at the end he becomes the Lord Commander (oh the irony). Will Brianne meet Sansa on the way? Perhaps. Maybe they will go to the CB together and then send Davos for rescue mission to find Rickon and Bran. Or maybe Sansa will be found by Northmen and will make her "Queen of the North" (please, please!) No, Rickon is alive and right now, Rickon is the now and future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorpHDoc Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 No, Rickon is alive and right now, Rickon is the now and future. I know Rickon is alive, but it does not meen Sansa cannot be a Queen (Queen Regent, that is) before Rickon comes of age. I really hope that you are right. I will be disappointed if the books follow the same plot as S6. Kind of an unceremonious end to the Stannis arc.That would be very bold of D&D to completely change the book events. We had plenty of changes, but most of them followed the books narrative. If in the books Stannis wins, the show has deviated waaaay too much from the books. I cannot see this happening. In the books it's very ambiguous whether Stannis has an upper hand or not. In my opinion, he does not. Hence he will lose the battle, but will survive. Hence the show showed us he lost the battle, but did not show us if he lost his life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cybvep Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 In the books it's very ambiguous whether Stannis has an upper hand or not. He definitely doesn't when it comes to the siege part. He is running out of food and he doesn't have any siege equipment, while Roose hides behind strong walls and has enough supplies to feed the army. Stannis is certainly capable of winning in the field, though, and I think that even if he ultimately loses, he will take many Freys and Boltons with him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaggy_rick Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 What I would like to see is this: Brianne takes Stannis to Castle Black to take the black. And at the end he becomes the Lord Commander (oh the irony). And then Jon will warg into Stannis' body - BAM - Melisandres vision of Stannis as Azor Ahai Reborn wasn't completely wrong. :smoking: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyu-Chuck Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 He definitely doesn't when it comes to the siege part. He is running out of food and he doesn't have any siege equipment, while Roose hides behind strong walls and has enough supplies to feed the army. Stannis is certainly capable of winning in the field, though, and I think that even if he ultimately loses, he will take many Freys and Boltons with him. I agree with you.... he may win in the field, but when comes to the siege part it will be almost impossible..... but we must consider that he is with Theon, and using his intel about the castle...... and Theon already conquered Winterfell with a few man climbing the walls..... with the blizzard the soldiers are half-blind and this can be done..... and also we must remeber that almost all the forces of Roose Bolton have questionable loyalty...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cybvep Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 Well, if Boltons are betrayed by their own allies, then obviously that may change things, because they can potentially open the gate for Stannis, kill Roose Bolton or whatever. However, Roose was smart enough to send the Freys and the Manderlys outside, along with Ramsay. Frankly, even if he lost all of them, that could actually save him the trouble during the siege and during winter. Fewer men mean fewer mouths to feed and fewer loyalty problems, while most of the Bolton force would still be intact. IIRC it was Theon in the TWoW chapter who said that Roose sent against Stannis the soldiers he would be well rid of. I think that he was right. I know that another theory is that Stannis will fake his own death and his soldiers will enter the castle disguised as Freys. This is an interesting possibility, but if the Freys drown in the lake, it won't be feasible, since their surcoats will drown with them. Besides, Stannis doesn't even know that Wyman Manderly wants to defect to his side (ATM he considers the Manderlys to be enemies), Wyman is gravely injured (this can mean communication problems) and Ramsay is a wildcard, too. Many things can go wrong with this plan in general. Anyway, saying that Stannis has the upper-hand in the upcoming siege is an overstatement. His position is much weaker than Bolton's. In fact, Bolton doesn't have to do a thing in order to win, because time is on his side. Stannis doesn't have this luxury. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyu-Chuck Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 Indeed Stannis' case is more dire than Roose's, but when you analyse both cases you see that both of them are fucked: while Stannis has more lotal bannerman (the only exception was the Karstarks and he alredy dealt with them), he is out in the open with very low supplies...... and Roose is surrounded of untrustworthy allies (other than his own men he can only trust the Freys, Lady Dustin and the Ryswells).... the mere presence of the Freys, despite their loyalty, is causing tension among the northerners..... and that is why he send the Manderlys and Freys against Stannis, the more troublesome of his allies..... while the Boltons have more supplies, that doesn't mean he can afford much time locked inside Winterfell with the number of people that is inside the castle.... one more reason to send the vanguard outside, to best manage the supplies, but again, it will not last much longer at this rate.... and the increasing tension with the northerners and Freys are a real problem, for the risk of fighting inside the walls other thing to consider is the strategy..... leading the attack against Stannis we have Hosteen Frey, who is a reckless commander who thinks will surprise the enemy.... he doesn't know the north and the only ones he can rely are the Manderlys (whose lord the Freys just tried to kill.... just to add more tension to their relations) the defense is under Stannis himself, who already knows of the surprise attack, a seasoned commander with northerners loyal to him that knows the terrain.... he has time to prepare his forces before they reach him..... the facts for the first stage of the battle, the attack on the crofters' village, is basically on Stannis' side.... while the second part, that will consist in the capture/defense of Winterfell, is on Roose's side..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cybvep Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 Well, no matter what the final outcome will be, I think that there is a real chance that we will see some Freys drowning in the lake ^^. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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