R+L=J v.28

[Black Wolf Smith]

"Aegon," he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in great wooden bed. "What better name for a king?"

"Will you make a song for him?" the woman asked. "He has a song," the man replied. "He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire."

He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany's, and it seemed as if he saw her standing their beyond the door.

"There must be one more," he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say.

"The dragon has three heads."

If this vision of Dany's from the House of the Undying is true, then it would seem that Rhaegar intended for Aegon to not only be king, but also the PWWP - he might not have ever changed his mind about that. We look back at thing now and see Lyanna as the Ice to his Fire, but Rhaegar may simply have seen a brave, fierce woman who could give him the 3rd child he believed he needed. That he loved her was a bonus.

If that was the case, then Elia never needed to worry about her place or her children, plus as a princess in her own right (not just by marriage) she had to know the value of a spare heir - neither the Great Spring Sickness or Summerhall had been that long ago after all - and they showed just how easily the royal line could be reduced. At the time that all of this was going down, the Targ's had been reduced to 6 members, 2 of which wouldn't be allowed to claim the throne, 1 who was batshit crazy, and 1 who was reportedly showing early signs of the family madness. An extra child (or more) would be a really good idea, and if Elia couldn't have them....

Plus, if this theory is correct, Elia is no longer the poor, passive, sickly wife - she's a smart, active player in the game.

• Ashara Dayne did give birth to a daughter, however that daughter was not stillborn, and had lived out in the identity of Alys Karstark. This explains her similarity to cousins (?)Arya and Jon. The Stark who impregnated Ashara could have been either Brandon or Ned. I find Brandon is more likely, as Lady Dustin describes him as quite willing to take what he wants (paraphrasing here from on of the Theon chapters in ADwD). Two questions remain open here- one being why Ned took this Dayne-Stark daughter from Ashara (something to do with the Rebellion? Or is it Benjen's daughter, and having had children might have prevented him from taking part in the Watch? Or did Ned want to avoid telling Catelyn that she had been betrayed by both Brandon (who was betrothed to her) and Ned himself (who lied about having a bastard to hide Jon's identity and keep him close, away from dangers such as the Lannisters, Varys and Robert)? The second question is why did the Karstarks take Alys as their own? I don't have a good answer for this one- anyone?
  

On the 2nd part-I agree that Elia knew, and that she was agreed with what happened with Lyanna. She couldn't have another, and there the old rule, "an heir, and a Spare" even though Dorne would support a female, the rest the 7 wouldn't.

On the 1st Karstarks have Stark blood. That would be really big plot. I don't see it. Everything eles we have seen said that Ned didn't tell anyone. It looks like he let people make the own minds which is why there are so many different stories out there.

I think Ned was w/ Ashara, Yes I know most of you don't see but...

Brandon had already fought LF for Cat's hand.

The wedding was not far off.

Cat seemed to think that Brandon loved her.

In Harrenhall, Brandon getting caught would have been just bad R naming L Queen of, and would put his mariage in jeopardy.

Brandon spoke to her for Ned, then he was supose turn around and take her for himself? that would be like Euron or Robert with their brothers, we didn't see or hear of Brandon being cruel to Ned.

Yes Ned's honor and all, but he wasn't heir, he was not betrothed, and as a 2nd son it would have been a good match for him, an old house, in the south, he father would have like it.

*edit note, *I messed up the quote somehow, sorry

[Black Wolf Smith]

but that woul mean Dawn is in winterfell

Yes, how eles is AAR suppose to get it? (or north of the wall if Meera, Jojen, Bran, or Hodor grabbed it)

[Dragonfish]

Yes, how eles is AAR suppose to get it? (or north of the wall if Meera, Jojen, Bran, or Hodor grabbed it)

Dawn is in Starfall, according to George.

[King Jon Snow]

The idea that Ned was able to travel from the TOJ to Starfall with a newborn baby without anybody noticing has always bothered me.

I am thinking that perhaps Arthur Dayne sent for Ashara and Wylla around the time Lyanna gave birth to Jon. Lyanna, knowing the danger Jon was in, gave him to Ashara and asked that she take him back to Starfall. When Ned arrived at the TOJ, Lyanna told him everything that had happened and she made him promise to protect Jon. Ned then went to Starfall under the guise of returning Dawn to the Dayne family but he really went there to assume care of Jon.

Ashara showing up in Starfall with Jon would explain the rumor that Ashara had a child. It would also explain the rumor that Ned was the father of Ashara's child because he arrived at Starfall with just his escort but left with the newborn Jon. This rumor gained credence when Ashara allegedly committed suicide shortly thereafter. This would also explain the story that Ned Dayne told Arya about Ashara being Jon's mother and Wylla being his wetnurse.

The biggest problem that I see with this theory (other than the obvious reliance on speculation) is the presence of the KG at the TOJ, as they were there to protect Jon. One possible explanation is that Ashara and Wylla were able to smuggle Jon out without them knowing. Another possible explanation is that the KG were willingly acting as decoys. If anybody came looking for Jon at the TOJ, the presence of the KG would make them think Jon was there. In reality, he would have been safe with Ashara and Wylla at Starfall.

Again, just floating an idea out there.

this thoery kinda makes me believe in the sl=ashara

[Black Wolf Smith]

GRRM said so then I stand corrected.

I do still think there was somehing to them(Bran & Co) picking up the swords, I guess the random sword Hodor grabbed might not be randon.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

I was having this conversation in the, "Maybe R+L=J is not true?" thread. It was locked due to length, and I think it best if we continued it over here where it should have been originally.

neither house martell nor myself ignored the fact about what the kingsguard believed. there are two things at play here, which i will explain as clearly as i can.

1. the distinction between a subjective and objective fact -- the former being akin to hearsay -- it may not be used to prove the truth of matter asserted. it may be used to prove the subjective belief about the content, but not the content itself. this is double hearsay, but that's neither here nor there. the point, which i neither ignored nor missed, was that their belief that they carried out the their duty, is not proof that they carried out their duty. example: i believe grass is blue. i strongly believe grass is blue. my belief in the truth value of my statement does not make it anymore true.

if you want to use it like that, however, i understand. they are honorable men, and everything we have heard about them points to them being good honest men. so is your theory illogical? no. still, the distinction i am making is one based on facts versus beliefs. so using it as a fact is not something i will do without more. that's just the way i was trained.

2) i am not talking about their duty to king jon targaryen. and havent been for some time.

who is the duty to at the point they leave king aerys to go to the tower? not jon targaryen. he's not born, king aerys is still alive and so are 2 other people ahead of the unborn baby in the line of succession.

i am talking about their duty to king aerys while he was alive. and whether they fulfilled that duty by being in the tower, especially after rhaegar died, but before aerys died. they didn't get to the tower after jon was born -- or even right before he was born. so yes, i am talking about their duty to king aerys which is the duty they had to fulfill for an extended period of time during which they were at the tower. whose orders were they? probably rhaegars. why are they taking orders from rhaegar? possibly because aerys told them to. why are they still there after rhaegar is dead, but aerys is still alive? that's the point i am making. if they knew that rhaegar was dead while aerys lived, they did not carry out their duty to king aerys, since whatever orders they got from rhaegar, possibly through aerys telling them to be with rhaegar, are now over.

3. i didn't misunderstand you. nor did i ignore any facts -- i chose to give less weight to a subjective fact, and told you why. the other fact i used differed from yours based on the timing -- i was talking about while king aerys was alive, you were talking about when everyone else was dead and jon was next. that fact is not relevant to the discussion i was having...

1. I never disagreed with you. When you gave this explanation in your last post it was annoying, but now you are insulting my intelligence by attempting to 'break it down'. I am not saying this is proof that they carried out their duty, but it is proof that they strongly believed they were, so one can assume that there are factors in play that we are not fully aware of, especially concerning their role at the ToJ. This is the point I have been trying to make! As I told House Martell...you cannot provide a argument without supporting details from the text, and then respond to a logical argument against it with a circle of questions that always lead back to the same questions. If you don't agree with someone form a logical explanation that will combat their reasoning.

2. How were they not carrying out their duty to Aerys? He was protected!!! As far as they knew he was locked down in the Red Keep with both Kingsguard and City Watch protection. There was no way Tywin could have sacked the city if Aerys had not willingly let him and his army into King's Landing. Also, how were the other KG members suppose to know that Jaime would slay the king he had sworn to protect? He was one of them, an extension of their order, and they trusted him, which is why they were so outraged that Jaime had murdered their king. Once they felt their king was protected their next duty was to the prince/heir that was going into open battle against the rebels. The three that died at the Trident were preforming their duty, and the three at the ToJ were preforming their duty by following Rhaegar's orders, and by possibly protecting members of the royal family. Once Aerys and Aegon were killed their duty would have been to Viserys who had already been rushed to Dragonstone. I doubt they knew what happened to Aerys and Aegon before Jon was born.

3. I misunderstood you, because you have taken more time explaining the difference in facts (something I am fully aware of, because I am not a dumb) instead of fully explaining where you are coming from, as evidenced by other responses in this thread.

[corbon]

I was having this conversation in the, "Maybe R+L=J is not true?" thread. It was locked due to length, and I think it best if we continued it over here where it should have been originally.

Thats a better idea than restarting that thread, which is what I did when my reply couldn;t go through due to thread closure while writing it.

summer_stark, on 02 July 2012 - 12:35 PM, said:

i am talking about their duty to king aerys while he was alive. and whether they fulfilled that duty by being in the tower, especially after rhaegar died, but before aerys died. they didn't get to the tower after jon was born -- or even right before he was born. so yes, i am talking about their duty to king aerys which is the duty they had to fulfill for an extended period of time during which they were at the tower. whose orders were they? probably rhaegars. why are they taking orders from rhaegar? possibly because aerys told them to. why are they still there after rhaegar is dead, but aerys is still alive? that's the point i am making. if they knew that rhaegar was dead while aerys lived, they did not carry out their duty to king aerys, since whatever orders they got from rhaegar, possibly through aerys telling them to be with rhaegar, are now over.

1. Rhaegar (and probably Dayne) was absent from KL (almost certainly at ToJ with Lyanna, probably in isolation so neither family could interfere).

2. Hightower was still at KL when Brandon did his nut and therefore probably later too.

3. With the rebellion succeeding, Aerys gave in and commanded Rhaegar be found and made commander in chief, since all his other Hands were rubbish.

4. Its very likely near certain, that Hightower was at this point given a commission by Aerys to find Rhaegar. He probablty took 1-2 other KG with him, so there was 1 with Rhaegar, 2-3 looking for Rhaegar and 3 at KL guarding the King (possibly with 1-2 of those out gathering the scattered loyalist forces).

5. Hightower goes to ToJ, informs Rhaegar he is CiC, and therefore is under his command so long as the rimary vow of the KG (always at least one protecting the King) is fulfulled. It is. 1-3 KG are currently with the King.

6. Rhaegar as CiC has the 3 KG stay at ToJ to protect Lyanna and the coming baby, and returns to KL (probably with 1 KG, since I can't see them letting him travel alone).

At this point the KG are totally fulfilling their vows. Their primary responsibility is in hand (1-3 KG with the king), the others can be allocated other tasks by the King, or as he has delegated CiC to Rhaegar, by Rhaegar. The task they have is to protect Lyanna and her babe, and that does does not conflict with their primary vows snce the King still has 1-3 KG protecting them.

7. Rhaegar returns to KL, takes charge, and allocates the protection of the King to Jaime, while taking the other 3 KG with him to battle. All 7 KG are following their vows, having been allocated tasks by the King or his direct heir and delegated representative, while their primary task is being fulfilled by Jaime.

You say that 1 is not enough. You claim that your opinion on this is valid. Well, Rhaegar disagrees, and so do the three KG that went with him. So I argue your opinion on this is not valid. Characters with a far greater and deeper understanding of what their responsibilities were than you decided that this was all right. End of Story.

Just because everyone has the right to have an opinion, does not make all opinions equal, or even valid. The facts of their dispositions clearly show that your opinion that 1 is not enough and so their duty was to get back to Aerys is not shared by Rhaegar, Aerys, or any of the 7 KG. Therefore any argument founded on this opinion is invalidated.

8. Rhaegar dies on the trident. Ned rushes to KL with Robert's vanguard. It would be near impossible for the 3 KG at the ToJ to have gotten word in between these events, and even if they did, everybody else who understands these matters considered Jaime + goldcloaks + red keep + thousands of soldiers to be sufficient protection for Aerys, so the 3 KG at ToJ still have duty at ToJ, not to return to Aerys. Their CiC gave them that duty and their vows are not in conflict with it.

9. Aerys and Aegon die at KL. King now should be Viserys, who was previously sent to Dragonstone. He has no KG, so the primary duty of the KG is no longer being fulfilled. At this point (or as soon as they know hereafter) at least one of the 3 KG at ToJ must be despatched to Dragonstone or they are failing their vows.

10. The KG at To get word of events (they seem to know before Ned arrives). But they don't despatch anyone. In fact when Ned gets there they seem quite certain that the fulfillment of their vows lies here, at ToJ, despite them clearly knowing (definitely now, if not before) that Viserys has no KG.

[Dr. Pepper]

• Ashara Dayne did give birth to a daughter, however that daughter was not stillborn, and had lived out in the identity of Alys Karstark. This explains her similarity to cousins (?)Arya and Jon. The Stark who impregnated Ashara could have been either Brandon or Ned. I find Brandon is more likely, as Lady Dustin describes him as quite willing to take what he wants (paraphrasing here from on of the Theon chapters in ADwD). Two questions remain open here- one being why Ned took this Dayne-Stark daughter from Ashara (something to do with the Rebellion? Or is it Benjen's daughter, and having had children might have prevented him from taking part in the Watch? Or did Ned want to avoid telling Catelyn that she had been betrayed by both Brandon (who was betrothed to her) and Ned himself (who lied about having a bastard to hide Jon's identity and keep him close, away from dangers such as the Lannisters, Varys and Robert)? The second question is why did the Karstarks take Alys as their own? I don't have a good answer for this one- anyone
  

This makes absolutely no sense. Alys is younger than Jon. Brandon was long dead by the time Alys was conceived. Harrenhal happened well before Brandon went to KL looking to duel with Rhaegar.

And, of course, Benjen was the Stark in Winterfell at the time of the war so he wasn't around Ashara. And he was pretty young.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

Thats a better idea than restarting that thread, which is what I did when my reply couldn;t go through due to thread closure while writing it.

A part of me wanted to abandon the conversation altogether, but I felt it may add to the R+L=J discussion. We shall see what happens. :unsure:

[summer_stark]

7. Rhaegar returns to KL, takes charge, and allocates the protection of the King to Jaime, while taking the other 3 KG with him to battle. All 7 KG are following their vows, having been allocated tasks by the King or his direct heir and delegated representative, while their primary task is being fulfilled by Jaime.

You say that 1 is not enough. You claim that your opinion on this is valid. Well, Rhaegar disagrees, and so do the three KG that went with him. So I argue your opinion on this is not valid. Characters with a far greater and deeper understanding of what their responsibilities were than you decided that this was all right. End of Story.

Just because everyone has the right to have an opinion, does not make all opinions equal, or even valid. The facts of their dispositions clearly show that your opinion that 1 is not enough and so their duty was to get back to Aerys is not shared by Rhaegar, Aerys, or any of the 7 KG. Therefore any argument founded on this opinion is invalidated.

8. Rhaegar dies on the trident. Ned rushes to KL with Robert's vanguard. It would be near impossible for the 3 KG at the ToJ to have gotten word in between these events, and even if they did, everybody else who understands these matters considered Jaime + goldcloaks + red keep + thousands of soldiers to be sufficient protection for Aerys, so the 3 KG at ToJ still have duty at ToJ, not to return to Aerys. Their CiC gave them that duty and their vows are not in conflict with it.

.

you're right -- my opinion as to leaving 1 KG versus theirs is not valid. i concede that what the king and rhaegar thought about leaving 1 KG with them is valid while mine makes no sense in the context of the story. and i grant that whatever i think about the stupidity of 3 KG in ToJ and 1KG with the king, and my belief in the moral culpability of the 3KG, is irrelevant. point taken. i still think it was a bad call on their part, and it still strikes me is odd, but i do concede the point.

still, the point is not necessary to make my argument. i disagree with the point you made about them being at ToJ being fulfillment of duty after rhaegar dies while aerys is alive. rhaegar's command dies with rhaegar while their king still lives. and saying "while everybody else who understands these matters" isn't compelling evidence as its only support is that they didn't leave. the only compelling theories i have on the matter are not my own -- apple martini suggested that they find out about rhaegar and aerys at the same time--that makes sense to me.

otherwise, i think they should not have been with lyanna after rhaegar died while their king and the second in line were alive. and if they knew but didn't leave, then that points to a different motivation for staying -- either it was an order by aerys (unlikely) or they felt committed to rhaegar and less so to aerys (not super likely considering how pissed they were about jaime killing him). so at this point, the only rational explanation is that they didn't know. not that they couldn't get there in time or that others were watching aerys along with jaime.

the fact that other people were there to watch the king isn't great evidence imo b/c it raises the question of the point of the KG in the first place.

[Ygrain]

They were assigned to guard a member of the royal family (Lyanna by marriage plus the unborn babe), who had no other protection at all. If, say, Aerys was on the run with just a couple of knights, then the KG protection would have made a huge difference. However, he was in the seat of his power, in a near-impenetrable fortress with an army of goldcloaks, and with Tywin's army supposedly on the way to join their forces with the Targaryens, since Aerys was apparently playing the Jaime-as-a-hostage card. In the clash of armies, KG presence doesn't play such an important role as in a one-to-one fight - after all, they are men like everyone else and can be overpowered, as we have seen. In this situation, I don't think Dayne and co. would necessarily feel any moral obligation to run to Aerys ASAP, since in their best opinion, the king was as safe as he could be, with or without them.

- Hypothetically: should Aerys abandon Myrcella in Dorne because Stannis was launching an attack on KL and the other KG but one were missing, or should he stick to his duty and protect the king's potential heir?

[summer_stark]

devolution in full effect...so, nevermind.

[summer_stark]

They were assigned to guard a member of the royal family (Lyanna by marriage plus the unborn babe), who had no other protection at all. If, say, Aerys was on the run with just a couple of knights, then the KG protection would have made a huge difference. However, he was in the seat of his power, in a near-impenetrable fortress with an army of goldcloaks, and with Tywin's army supposedly on the way to join their forces with the Targaryens, since Aerys was apparently playing the Jaime-as-a-hostage card. In the clash of armies, KG presence doesn't play such an important role as in a one-to-one fight - after all, they are men like everyone else and can be overpowered, as we have seen. In this situation, I don't think Dayne and co. would necessarily feel any moral obligation to run to Aerys ASAP, since in their best opinion, the king was as safe as he could be, with or without them.

- Hypothetically: should Aerys abandon Myrcella in Dorne because Stannis was launching an attack on KL and the other KG but one were missing, or should he stick to his duty and protect the king's potential heir?

fair points. the hypothetical isn't really analogous to our situation though -- especially since it's one versus three. and also because myrcella is an heir, but lyanna isn't -- true her child would be, but if only one person was protecting say, joffrey's pregnant wife in dorne instead of robert and everyone else was gone and joffrey was dead -- then yes, if it was joff who gave the order, i'd say it is their duty to protect the king first, heir second. since there is one already there and it would leave them with none w/joff's hypothetical pregnant wife, it is a tougher question. then again, there was another heir at KL who was not being protected while jaime was protecting aerys -- namely, aegon -- sure, jaime was there -- but unless aerys and aegon hung out all the time, one was left unprotected in favor of three w/his second wife...,

[corbon]

the only compelling theories i have on the matter are not my own -- apple martini suggested that they find out about rhaegar and aerys at the same time--that makes sense to me.

That is more or less certain, given the timelines and probable information dissemination. We are only arguing the small possibility that they found out one before the other in order to give your theory maximum possibility.

still, the point is not necessary to make my argument. i disagree with the point you made about them being at ToJ being fulfillment of duty after rhaegar dies while aerys is alive. rhaegar's command dies with rhaegar while their king still lives. and saying "while everybody else who understands these matters" isn't compelling evidence as its only support is that they didn't leave.

...

otherwise, i think they should not have been with lyanna after rhaegar died while their king and the second in line were alive. and if they knew but didn't leave, then that points to a different motivation for staying -- either it was an order by aerys (unlikely) or they felt committed to rhaegar and less so to aerys (not super likely considering how pissed they were about jaime killing him). so at this point, the only rational explanation is that they didn't know. not that they couldn't get there in time or that others were watching aerys along with jaime.

the fact that other people were there to watch the king isn't great evidence imo b/c it raises the question of the point of the KG in the first place.

Please explain what changes when Rhaegar dies. If 1 KG + GCs +1000s + RK is enough to cover the "one must always be with the king" portion of the KG vow before Rhaegar dies, then 1KG +GCs +1000s + RK is enough to cover the same portion of their vow after Rhaegar dies. Sure, the strategic situation has changed, but if their vow was being fulfilled before, then it is still being fulfilled after. The point really is that they didn't leave, they weren't in violation of their vows before, the technical situation regards their vow has not changed and their clearly intimate that they have not and will not abandon their vows.

Therefore, whatever you think might be the situation, it was not their duty, as they understand it (much better than you), to return to Aerys when Rhaegar died.

The fact that there are other people watching the King is definitively good enough since it was definitively good enough to Aerys, Rhaegar and the rest of the KG to cover the requirements their primary vow before, and the same people are watching the king now, so by definition it still must cover the requirements of their primary vow.

Remembering of course that this is the hypothetical and probably very unlikely event that they heard of Rhaegars death before Aerys and Aegon died. If they hear of both events together, then obviously they must send at least one member to Viserys unless Viserys is not their king.

Whether they didn't know, or they weren't required to return by their vows is ultimately irrelevent I guess, so I'm not sure why you are persisting on this point having already been proved wrong on the main point. Also not sure why I'm arguing it with you, but its written now. :cool4:

And remember that Aerys made Rhaegar CiC. That was the whole reason Hightower went to ToJ. So if Rhaegar, operating legally as both Heir and Commander-in-Chief, commanded them to undertake a task, that command lasts until countermanded by Aerys (who doesn't know where they are, or Rhaegar, who is dead, or A Nother, appointed by Aerys to have that authority) or superceded by their primary vows.

[dragontamer]

I am pondering a question for a while... maybe someone can help. What was the purpose of three KG men at the ToJ, to protect and guard or to imprison? No matter how valiant and brave three men are they are still just three men, how can they stand against an army or seven other soldiers as a matter of fact? But three men taking turns and guarding a woman would suffice. What do you think? Consider this if possible as a seperate fact not thinking R=L=J.

[summer_stark]

That is more or less certain, given the timelines and probable information dissemination. We are only arguing the small possibility that they found out one before the other in order to give your theory maximum possibility.

Please explain what changes when Rhaegar dies. If 1 KG + GCs +1000s + RK is enough to cover the "one must always be with the king" portion of the KG vow before Rhaegar dies, then 1KG +GCs +1000s + RK is enough to cover the same portion of their vow after Rhaegar dies. Sure, the strategic situation has changed, but if their vow was being fulfilled before, then it is still being fulfilled after. The point really is that they didn't leave, they weren't in violation of their vows before, the technical situation regards their vow has not changed and their clearly intimate that they have not and will not abandon their vows.

Therefore, whatever you think might be the situation, it was not their duty, as they understand it (much better than you), to return to Aerys when Rhaegar died.

The fact that there are other people watching the King is definitively good enough since it was definitively good enough to Aerys, Rhaegar and the rest of the KG to cover the requirements their primary vow before, and the same people are watching the king now, so by definition it still must cover the requirements of their primary vow.

Remembering of course that this is the hypothetical and probably very unlikely event that they heard of Rhaegars death before Aerys and Aegon died. If they hear of both events together, then obviously they must send at least one member to Viserys unless Viserys is not their king.

Whether they didn't know, or they weren't required to return by their vows is ultimately irrelevent I guess, so I'm not sure why you are persisting on this point having already been proved wrong on the main point. Also not sure why I'm arguing it with you, but its written now. :cool4:

And remember that Aerys made Rhaegar CiC. That was the whole reason Hightower went to ToJ. So if Rhaegar, operating legally as both Heir and Commander-in-Chief, commanded them to undertake a task, that command lasts until countermanded by Aerys (who doesn't know where they are, or Rhaegar, who is dead, or A Nother, appointed by Aerys to have that authority) or superceded by their primary vows.

this is my point. The fact that rhaegar is dead does change things--namely, it changes their orders. They were protecting Lyanna on rhaegars orders. As such, when he dies, they need to seek out their king to get new orders, since, as you point out, he doesn't know where they are.

Carrying out orders by the heir who is now dead to protect his secret wife and her unborn child over their king and second in line is not fulfilling their duty to their king or following the authority of the person charged with giving orders--rhaegar is dead. The duty to follow rhaegars orders dies with him. It is not the 1 kg w the king rule--it is the follow your living kings orders rule. This is not protecting their king aerys, nor is it on their kings orders. They have orders to protect their living king. That's their primary vow. Saying that since they stayed we know they were fulfilling their duty is speculative. More so than its ok to leave 1 kg in kl bc as you point out, the king is part of the decision to have but 1 kg thrre-- so it's on the explicit orders of the person of authority.

Here's a better way to illuminate the point: what would king aerys have wanted the 3 kg to do after rhaegar died? Stay w pregnant second wife or guard him? It's what he would have wanted that should matter at that point.

[summer_stark]

And why fight Ned at all? That's his sister. He's not going to hurt her or her child. They surely know that. Do they think he will take her against her will? Kill his nephew? If they think they are going to die anyway, why not talk first? Why not let Ned "treat" with them and then go see her alone? She also asks for him, and would probably tell them that she wants to see him, that he wouldn't hurt her, or the child. Those are Ned's bannermen with him, he can tell them to back off for a bit.

[Ygrain]

this is my point. The fact that rhaegar is dead does change things--namely, it changes their orders. They were protecting Lyanna on rhaegars orders. As such, when he dies, they need to seek out their king to get new orders, since, as you point out, he doesn't know where they are.

Carrying out orders by the heir who is now dead to protect his secret wife and her unborn child over their king and second in line is not fulfilling their duty to their king or following the authority of the person charged with giving orders--rhaegar is dead. The duty to follow rhaegars orders dies with him. It is not the 1 kg w the king rule--it is the follow your living kings orders rule. This is not protecting their king aerys, nor is it on their kings orders. They have orders to protect their living king. That's their primary vow. Saying that since they stayed we know they were fulfilling their duty is speculative. More so than its ok to leave 1 kg in kl bc as you point out, the king is part of the decision to have but 1 kg thrre-- so it's on the explicit orders of the person of authority.

Here's a better way to illuminate the point: what would king aerys have wanted the 3 kg to do after rhaegar died? Stay w pregnant second wife or guard him? It's what he would have wanted that should matter at that point.

I guess that would very much depend on what exactly Rhaegar ordered them. Also, I'm not entirely sure that an order to protect a royal family member would be perceived as terminated with the death of the person who issued it; at least not to the degree that they should wave bye-bye to Lyanna immediately, without arranging some replacement to guard her, which would take some time and become a moot point once the news of the Sack reached them (is there a timeline how long it might take Ned's forces to march down to KL from Trident?)

And why fight Ned at all? That's his sister. He's not going to hurt her or her child. They surely know that. Do they think he will take her against her will? Kill his nephew? If they think they are going to die anyway, why not talk first? Why not let Ned "treat" with them and then go see her alone? She also asks for him, and would probably tell them that she wants to see him, that he wouldn't hurt her, or the child. Those are Ned's bannermen with him, he can tell them to back off for a bit.

Quite the contrary, they can't be sure at all. Ned is the commander and the best buddy of the guy who usurped the throne over the bodies of Rhaegar's children. Even if they knew Ned's reaction to that, which I doubt, they would necessarily come to the conclusion that once Robert learns about another child of Rhaegar, he will not hesitate to use the same ruthless measure. They could try to persuade Ned not to tell Robert, but if they fail to convince him, the secret is out, and Jon's life hangs by a thread. So far, his greatest protection was that no-one was even aware of his existence; to prolong this protection, no-one may enter ToJ to find out that Lyanna was pregnant. Hence, the fight. IMHO.

[Lady Octarina]

this is my point. The fact that rhaegar is dead does change things--namely, it changes their orders. They were protecting Lyanna on rhaegars orders. As such, when he dies, they need to seek out their king to get new orders, since, as you point out, he doesn't know where they are.

Carrying out orders by the heir who is now dead to protect his secret wife and her unborn child over their king and second in line is not fulfilling their duty to their king or following the authority of the person charged with giving orders--rhaegar is dead. The duty to follow rhaegars orders dies with him. It is not the 1 kg w the king rule--it is the follow your living kings orders rule. This is not protecting their king aerys, nor is it on their kings orders. They have orders to protect their living king. That's their primary vow. Saying that since they stayed we know they were fulfilling their duty is speculative. More so than its ok to leave 1 kg in kl bc as you point out, the king is part of the decision to have but 1 kg thrre-- so it's on the explicit orders of the person of authority.

Here's a better way to illuminate the point: what would king aerys have wanted the 3 kg to do after rhaegar died? Stay w pregnant second wife or guard him? It's what he would have wanted that should matter at that point.

I didn't follow the discussion in the other thread, so bear with me if I'm asking something you've already explained. But supposing you are correct and the 3KG at the ToJ were not fulfilling their vows, how exactly do you explain their presence there? What reason would they have to stay at that place when everything was falling apart?

[dragontamer]

Derived from the ToJ dialogue is stated through Ned's questions that the KG would normally be at the side of either the king, or the heir to the throne, or the royal family, or at least fighting with their bannermen. Ned was surprised he didn't find them with neither.

"We swore a vow," explained old Ser Gerold. The word "explained" intrigues me, as if Ser Gerold answers Ned's question as to why they were there instead of where they should be. Maybe the vow they swore was a different, sworn directly to Rhaegar and not the KG's vow.