R+L=J v.28

[Braavosi Sealady]

It's been some time simce I read the books so could you please tell me where is it stated that Rhaegar went into hiding and Aerys was trying to find him?

In AFfC, when Jamie is talking with Ronnet Connington at Harrenhall, he remembers how Aerys remover Lord Merryweather from the "Hand of the King" post for his failure to sustain the rebellion and tried to find Rhaegar. Because Rhaegar couldn't be found, Aerys turned to his 2nd best option and appointed Jon Connington for the job...

[Shaggy Rickon]

I can't see Ned planting rumours about Ashara unless he had her permission. Going 'hey, let's ruin a random woman's reputation because her looks are convenient' just isn't Ned.

Besides, it was probably already obvious that Jon had the Stark look, and the only truly suspicious things would have been the hair and purple eyes. It's a common misconception that all babies are born with blue eyes, but that's not actually true. He may have been born with grey eyes, and even if he wasn't, Rhaegar himself had blue eyes, which aren't all too suspicious. And it was probably already obvious that he wouldn't be blond.

well ashara had "committed suicide" by the time ned started the rumour so...............

[Alia of the knife]

The one common denominator in everyones POV is that Rhaegar wanted Lyanna, and Selmy takes it bit further by confirming Rhaegars "Love for his Lady Lyanna," and then goes on to roundly condemn that love as a poison, hoping that Dany does the right thing and choose duty.

The one thing that is missing is Lyannas POV, and anyone who might have known her besides Ned, who is also not necessarily forthcoming in his thoughts about the subject. The thing that gives me pause is that no one says anything about Lyanna behaving inappropriately, and I would think if she was luring the hapless Prince from his poor family, more might have been said about it.

Instead, we just hear that if Rhaegar had only married anyone but poor, "dish rag" Elia, then Rhaegar wouldn't have run off after the "Stark" girl, so alot of people long on excuses on why Rhaegar did what he did.

What is also in place is a lot of extrapalation from the text about her that could just as well have other meanings:

- The symbolism of the blue rose could be the Authors use of this to imply "ice," "Winter," etc., so it's fitting that this flower be Lyannas symbol, but if it were used as a double entendre' that flower also symbolizes unattainability, unrequited love, something that is beyond your grasp, which she surely would have been for Rhaegar.

- The Wolfs blood: It could mean that she is just unconventional enough, and passionate enough about whats right and wrong, she defied the conventions of her day to rebel and fight for a man who was being bullied.

I think someone who feels that strongly, to don armour and fight for this boy has a care for honor.

I don't dislike Rhaegar, but I do feel in the build-up of his character as this Targaryen paragon, there will also be a deconstruction, and for those who are totally into Rhaegar, I think there is a tendancy for the need to make everyone around him more complicit than may be true in order to preserve his pristine character:

- Elia knew and approved of what he was doing and planning. That may be true, BUT, it may also not be true. However, if it wasn't true, then that doesn't bode well for Rhaegars character.

- Lyanna who was willing to cast aside one man for infidelity was willing to run off with a married man who had Heirs, shaming not only herself, her House, but her Fathers Bannermen and the entire North.

We make fun of the judgement of the Starks, yet we see that Rhaegar Knighted Gregor Clegane, the man who would ironically rape and murder Elia

.

If we can believe that Lyanna would eschew all vestages of honor when honor seems very important to her, then why is it impossible to believe that Rhaegar would do the same thing to be with her?

I think this is an example of literary extremes and Rhaegars arc:

He goes from being the worst kind of evil, (from Roberts POV), to this almost "cultish" admiration of Rhaegar.

What we start to see from Selmy as he gradually discusses Rhaegar with Dany, is that he will likely fall somewhere in between, as with all the characters in the book.

Bad people who do good things, good people who do bad things, and yes, that can be true of Lyanna as well.

I am a Lyanna fan, but understand she was not perfect, and on some levels complicit in what happened, but I do think Lyanna was a bit more honorable than she is being given credit for.

As I said, I don't dislike Rhaegar, or think he is a bad guy, and believe that what has been said of his great honor is true, but what is also true of his character are his dwellings on dark things, melancholia, and sadness.

Falling in love with someone you can't have is likely to exacerbate an already depressed person, perhaps making him desperate enough to believe via a prophesy he's doing the "right" thing, eschewing his own honor, and that of his own family.

Just approaching this with caution.

[Lady Octarina]

@Alia of the Knife

I, particularly, prefer to think Lyanna had a more active/complicit part in all that happened not because of my love for Rhaegar, for I love both characters equally, but because I refuse to believe someone like her were willingly choose to honor her father's arrangement and marry someone like Robert Baratheon when there was an alternative. We just don't know that she was that honorable; Howland is always brought up when trying to make that point, but as far as we know she might have (subconsciously or not) just used the "I'm defending my father's bannerman's honor" as an excuse to beat some stupid squires and take the only chance she had of ever jousting in a tourney.

But even if that wasn't the case, honor and duty are different qualities.

As things stand, if Rhaegar is the only one to blame, Lyanna becomes too much a victim of a man's obsession and possibly unexpected consequences from her impulsivity in the KotLT business, and, at least for me, the character ceases to be interesting. (I'd say the same about Elia - if she was aware of Rhaegar's plans and made some sort of deal with him to have an advantage when all the mess was concluded, she becomes a much more interesting character - a player - than the poor, sickly, wrong wife).

It's not that hard to understand why no character has ever pointed that she had a part in it. First, because the only two that "knew" Lyanna and had the chance of talking about all that were Robert and Ned, and neither has any interest in pointing her complicity - Robert won't even acknowledge that possibility, for it stains his pride. And also because she died at the end of all this; when a person dies in a tragic/mysterious way people close to her tend to excuse/forget her own part in her fate and simply blaming any available external factors for that. Which would be Rhaegar. And the absence of any thoughts from Ned blaming Rhaegar for all that does suggest that Lyanna's part was greater than acknowledged.

[JonTargaryenW/Viserion4WIN]

No I meant triplets. And who knows who came out first...this is completely crackpot...so mostly just for fun...but:

Ned brought the babies to Starfall and Ashara took that one due to Targ features...potentially he came out first which is how he got involved in this throne war plot, but this could also just be due to the fact that Varys got his hands on it first....both situations explain Ashara's "suicide" as she would have to disappear and become someone else in order to hide her identity for either finding Aegon with JC or smuggling him across the sea herself...

Ned took Jon (the rest is history) and Howland took Meera.

I came up with a triplet theory a while back, (not claiming to be the first to do so) but my three didn't include Meera Reed, though I like this as well. My triplets, the three heads of the dragon, are Aegon (named after his older bro who was actually slain by the Mountain), Jon, and Gerold a.k.a. Darkstar!!

Could be cool......

[Sasha Steelsong]

well ashara had "committed suicide" by the time ned started the rumour so...............

Still..I don't see him doing it. Not the kind of guy to dishonor a noble woman, particularly if she's dead.

[Budj]

I don't see how being pissed off squires were bullying a smaller individual and also bucking the marriage duties because she doesn't feel it's right are mutually exclusive...there is honor and then there is doing what the individual believes is the right thing. Lyanna could have had her own "wild wolf" sense of honor that did not conform to Westerosi culture. I think a big aspect of the novels is that people view honor as always to be the right thing....but I think that Lyanna (and Jon) buck that trend to do what's right in spite of what's honorable.

[dragontamer]

sorry if mentioned before....

I wonder why would Ned travel with a newborn baby and just one companion just after his sister's death to Starfall to rturn Dawn to Hause Dayne. It seems reckless to travel with the baby he promised to save into hostile terittory before even burying his sister just to retufn a sword. What was the haste? Reading the discription of Darkstar again I too beleive there was a baby, but it was not Jon. It is stated that Rhaegar's dearest friend was Arthur Dayne, so is only resonable to entrust Rhaegar's only surviving son with the Daynes

I don't currently have the english version of the book (someone might help me) but in GOT in Eddard's chapter when he meets Cat in LF's brothel sais something like "it won't be the first time I will ally with someone I dislike". Perhaps he did it in the past to save Lyanna's child, for I can't imagine shat would make the honorable Ned ally with someone he didn't like, just as he did while imprisoned in order to save his daughters.

[Dragonfish]

sorry if mentioned before....

I wonder why would Ned travel with a newborn baby and just one companion just after his sister's death to Starfall to rturn Dawn to Hause Dayne. It seems reckless to travel with the baby he promised to save into hostile terittory before even burying his sister just to retufn a sword. What was the haste? Reading the discription of Darkstar again I too beleive there was a baby, but it was not Jon. It is stated that Rhaegar's dearest friend was Arthur Dayne, so is only resonable to entrust Rhaegar's only surviving son with the Daynes

Wait, so you think the Daynes were both trustworthy and hostile? Seems like you're contradicting yourself.

Not to mention, your theory ignores several important R+L=J clues, including the blue rose vision from the House of the Undying, and Ned's statement that he has been "living lies" for fourteen years. It's fine if you want to propose interesting alternative theories, but at least make them consistent with the known evidence.

I don't currently have the english version of the book (someone might help me) but in GOT in Eddard's chapter when he meets Cat in LF's brothel sais something like "it won't be the first time I will ally with someone I dislike". Perhaps he did it in the past to save Lyanna's child, for I can't imagine shat would make the honorable Ned ally with someone he didn't like, just as he did while imprisoned in order to save his daughters.

The man he made common cause with was most likely Tywin.

[y ddraig]

Ned admired Arthur Dayne, at the very least, and possibly had a soft spot for Ashara. That they found themselves on different sides during the rebellion doesn't necessarily mean they disliked each other. The Lannisters seem a lot more likely.

Edit for spelling.

[peasant]

Quick question. DId Ned ever refer to Jon as "My son" or just as "My blood"?

in HBO series Ned said to Jon " you may not have my name but you have my blood ". Jon cannot have his name because he is a snow, but Jon has a blood of Stark from Lyanna.

[Ygrain]

sorry if mentioned before....

I wonder why would Ned travel with a newborn baby and just one companion just after his sister's death to Starfall to rturn Dawn to Hause Dayne. It seems reckless to travel with the baby he promised to save into hostile terittory before even burying his sister just to retufn a sword. What was the haste? Reading the discription of Darkstar again I too beleive there was a baby, but it was not Jon. It is stated that Rhaegar's dearest friend was Arthur Dayne, so is only resonable to entrust Rhaegar's only surviving son with the Daynes

I don't currently have the english version of the book (someone might help me) but in GOT in Eddard's chapter when he meets Cat in LF's brothel sais something like "it won't be the first time I will ally with someone I dislike". Perhaps he did it in the past to save Lyanna's child, for I can't imagine shat would make the honorable Ned ally with someone he didn't like, just as he did while imprisoned in order to save his daughters.

A favourite theory is that the main reason for the trip to Starfall was not the sword but finding a ship on which Ned sent Jon to the North, possibly with HR. IMHO, Ned couldn't allow to be seen with a baby in the south, since he would have a hard time explaining where and how he found him - he can hardly claim him for his own down there, since he hadn't been to the South before and his men would know that there was no pregnant campfollower around. In order to successfully pass Jon away as his bastard, and to avoid suspicion that Lyanna might have been impregnated by Rhaegar, he must obliterate any connection between Jon and the South.

As for Darkstar, we don't know how old he is but given the way Arianne thinks of him, he must be older. She thinks of him as a man, had an affair with him some time ago - now, Jon is sixteen, and still people think of him as a boy. I don't think Arianne would refer to a sixteen years old as a man.

[Alia of the knife]

@Alia of the Knife

I, particularly, prefer to think Lyanna had a more active/complicit part in all that happened not because of my love for Rhaegar, for I love both characters equally, but because I refuse to believe someone like her were willingly choose to honor her father's arrangement and marry someone like Robert Baratheon when there was an alternative. We just don't know that she was that honorable; Howland is always brought up when trying to make that point, but as far as we know she might have (subconsciously or not) just used the "I'm defending my father's bannerman's honor" as an excuse to beat some stupid squires and take the only chance she had of ever jousting in a tourney.

But even if that wasn't the case, honor and duty are different qualities.

As things stand, if Rhaegar is the only one to blame, Lyanna becomes too much a victim of a man's obsession and possibly unexpected consequences from her impulsivity in the KotLT business, and, at least for me, the character ceases to be interesting. (I'd say the same about Elia - if she was aware of Rhaegar's plans and made some sort of deal with him to have an advantage when all the mess was concluded, she becomes a much more interesting character - a player - than the poor, sickly, wrong wife).

It's not that hard to understand why no character has ever pointed that she had a part in it. First, because the only two that "knew" Lyanna and had the chance of talking about all that were Robert and Ned, and neither has any interest in pointing her complicity - Robert won't even acknowledge that possibility, for it stains his pride. And also because she died at the end of all this; when a person dies in a tragic/mysterious way people close to her tend to excuse/forget her own part in her fate and simply blaming any available external factors for that. Which would be Rhaegar. And the absence of any thoughts from Ned blaming Rhaegar for all that does suggest that Lyanna's part was greater than acknowledged.

I think Lyanna took the words of her House to heart, and would have been more likely to sacrifice her personal desires for the sake of the "pack"

Personal desires go against the desires of the pack, and puts it at risk.

She and Brandon having the "wolfs blood" as they did likely means they were the leaders of that pack- alpha male/alpha female.

In Sansas initial act of selfishness with Joffrey, she ultimately loses her wolf, her pack, and is the least Stark-like of the group.

With the use of this wolf imagry, it's one thing for Rhaegar to be part of her "pack," but I don't know that she would sacrifice them, for him.

Thus she may very well have intended to act according to her family's wishes, even though she didn't want to.

I think it's likely that Rhaegar had to figure a way out for her to "break her vows" the same way that Jon will have to be released from his.( think of how Jon personally wants things, but will still cling to the vows he took).

Whatever was going on behind the scenes, after their meeting if she is the KoTL, and the run-up to the crowning, I would bet Rhaegar was not subtle about his feelings as deception was probably not a natural part of his character.

He may have thought his attraction to her was going unnoticed, but just like in the real world, it was most likely painfully obvious. While people were shocked that he actually crowned her, the POV's make it seem as though something has been going on for awhile, and didn't just happen at the moment of the Tourney.

And again, if she was acting inappropriately towards him, I would think that Rhaegars people would be the first to happily mention it.

Even Dany refers to her almost neutrally as "the Stark girl."

But then later, she thinks, almost approvingly, of the idea that Rhaegar took "his Northern girl" at swordpoint, and thinks it's romantic- and anything Dany thinks is a positive , scares me. :eek:

It's always bothered me that Rhaegars faction never refer to her as "Lady Lyanna," (only Selmy), "Lady Stark," "Lyanna of House Stark," etc.

It's always "that Stark girl, his "Northern girl," or "the wolf girl."

Names that are impersonal.

They were either two very noble people, with a purity of spirit that fate intended for one another.

Or

They were two very flawed soul mates, and one could only understand the other, nor could one exist without the other.

Or

They fell somewhere in between, and this is not a story about love conquering all, but love ruining all- at least for the Kingdom as Selmy alludes.

[Black Wolf Smith]

sorry if mentioned before....

I wonder why would Ned travel with a newborn baby and just one companion just after his sister's death to Starfall to rturn Dawn to Hause Dayne. It seems reckless to travel with the baby he promised to save into hostile terittory before even burying his sister just to retufn a sword.

Well where else would he go? If he got R + L=Jon from the ToJ, He had no friends in Dorne, He couldn't trust Robert or his supporters with the babies life. He had no wet nurse(so he couldn't just put the kid on a boat w/ HR). Either Brandon or He had a thing with Ashara, she was close by (the reason most believe that Lyanna was there to begin with), mayhaps just had a baby, and he couldn't tell anybody about Jon.

He goes there gets Wylla as a wet nurse(doesn't matter if only for a couple days or if she went to north w/ baby) He gets some help, tells her He is married w/ a child and the baby is his bastard, and leaves, she kills her self. IMO he did not return Dawn to her, I think its buried w/ Lyanna (like the sword that bran, meera, Jorjen, or Osha has with them)

[Hombre_Lobo]

@Alia of the Knife

I, particularly, prefer to think Lyanna had a more active/complicit part in all that happened not because of my love for Rhaegar, for I love both characters equally, but because I refuse to believe someone like her were willingly choose to honor her father's arrangement and marry someone like Robert Baratheon when there was an alternative. We just don't know that she was that honorable; Howland is always brought up when trying to make that point, but as far as we know she might have (subconsciously or not) just used the "I'm defending my father's bannerman's honor" as an excuse to beat some stupid squires and take the only chance she had of ever jousting in a tourney.

I tend to agree. I'm not sure I buy that she was simply kidnapped. I'm of the opinion that she went with Rhaegar willingly.

[The Snow King]

The one thing that is missing is Lyannas POV, and anyone who might have known her besides Ned, who is also not necessarily forthcoming in his thoughts about the subject. The thing that gives me pause is that no one says anything about Lyanna behaving inappropriately, and I would think if she was luring the hapless Prince from his poor family, more might have been said about it.

Provided that Rheagars family knew what really happened, which is probably not the case. The Starks seem to be confused about what was going on, and there is no reason why Targaryen would be better informed, with Rheagar being reserved (Barristan tells us that Rheager didn't have many trusted friends) and with Aerys becoming even more paranoid and unstable, he would have good reasons to keep things for himself.

- The symbolism of the blue rose could be the Authors use of this to imply "ice," "Winter," etc., so it's fitting that this flower be Lyannas symbol, but if it were used as a double entendre' that flower also symbolizes unattainability, unrequited love, something that is beyond your grasp, which she surely would have been for Rhaegar.

It's hard to speculate on that, symbols have tendency to be unclear so anyone can interpret them as wishes. Same thing with prophecies.

- The Wolfs blood: It could mean that she is just unconventional enough, and passionate enough about whats right and wrong, she defied the conventions of her day to rebel and fight for a man who was being bullied.

I think someone who feels that strongly, to don armour and fight for this boy has a care for honor.

- Lyanna who was willing to cast aside one man for infidelity was willing to run off with a married man who had Heirs, shaming not only herself, her House, but her Fathers Bannermen and the entire North.

Of course Lyanna has cared for honour. But not for the social conventions and rules. She was honourable enough to enter the tournament and win some justice for the bullied marshman, but by doing that she defied the rules that women have no place in such fights. She should be compliant, do as man tell her to and stitch or something, rather that ride horses and fight. I can imagine Lyanna having a strong sense of personal honour, but little love for being traded like an object in a marriage pact, to a guy that would sleep with every girl around. She was described as 'wild' and I have not trouble seeing how that could work - she would probably fit much better with the Wildlings north of the Wall, rather than with 'kneelers'.

I don't dislike Rhaegar, but I do feel in the build-up of his character as this Targaryen paragon, there will also be a deconstruction, and for those who are totally into Rhaegar, I think there is a tendancy for the need to make everyone around him more complicit than may be true in order to preserve his pristine character:

I do not say Rheager was pristine, the perfect white knight and all that. One of the main strong points of this series is that characters are only human. Depending on what happened, Rhaegar actions hurt at least Elia or Lyanna, perhaps both of them. Honestly, in my view, there is no such thing as a good noble in feudalism, it is an inherently unjust system, and everyone who believes he has any inborn right to rule is already in my bad books. Nevertheless, the only bad things about him we hear from Robert who is set in his hatred and unbelievable (not to mention, not the nicest guy around, anyway).

We make fun of the judgement of the Starks, yet we see that Rhaegar Knighted Gregor Clegane, the man who would ironically rape and murder Elia

Feudalism is a flawed system. One of the more prominent themes in ASoIaF is the deisparity between the ideal knight of songs or faith and the reality. Each side, be it Starks, Targaryens, Lannisters has monsters, rapers and murderers in their employ - to the point where it's hard to distinguish between armed forces and bandit bands, and characters like Randyll Tarly seem decent in comparison, because while being merciless bastards, they at least impose some order.

If we can believe that Lyanna would eschew all vestages of honor when honor seems very important to her, then why is it impossible to believe that Rhaegar would do the same thing to be with her?

Let's not go crazy about honour here. Lyanna can be quite honourable and still 'shame' her relatives by escaping with Rheagar, just because she does not care that much about the social convention. So can do Rheagar, to break some customs and taboos by escaping with Lyanna while not becoming completely honorless. World is not black and white, it is dangerous to consider only absolutes, and assume that everyone has the same ideas about how honour works.

I think Lyanna took the words of her House to heart, and would have been more likely to sacrifice her personal desires for the sake of the "pack"

Personal desires go against the desires of the pack, and puts it at risk.

She and Brandon having the "wolfs blood" as they did likely means they were the leaders of that pack- alpha male/alpha female.

In Sansas initial act of selfishness with Joffrey, she ultimately loses her wolf, her pack, and is the least Stark-like of the group.

With the use of this wolf imagry, it's one thing for Rhaegar to be part of her "pack," but I don't know that she would sacrifice them, for him.

Thus she may very well have intended to act according to her family's wishes, even though she didn't want to.

I do not think so. I believe their 'wolf blood' means they are wild, wilful and not caring too much about social conventions. It is remarked a few times, both about Lyanna and Brandon that they were 'wild' (and that id did not end well for them). And let's not assume that all Starks are honourable to a fault. Yes, Ned - the quite wolf - is, but we do not know much about other Starks, as they are mostly dead, and Benjen does not appear much in the books. We know that Lord Rickard had 'southron ambitions', so he may have been a schemer, not unlike Tywin or Littlefinger. Lyanna and Brandon were wild, and if we take a look at Brandons behaviour after the news of Lyanna kidnapping reach him, we can see what it means. He is impulsive, reckless, doesn't think much what his actions will mean for the whole house - and what he does is no less than treason. Ned, on the other hand, was shaped by the tragedy that happened after that, and that may have shaped him the way we see him in the books.

He may have thought his attraction to her was going unnoticed, but just like in the real world, it was most likely painfully obvious. While people were shocked that he actually crowned her, the POV's make it seem as though something has been going on for awhile, and didn't just happen at the moment of the Tourney.

Hmm, what POVs are that? All I got was thing that I think relate to Harrenhall and after, but maybe I have missed something.

And again, if she was acting inappropriately towards him, I would think that Rhaegars people would be the first to happily mention it.

Even Dany refers to her almost neutrally as "the Stark girl."

But then later, she thinks, almost approvingly, of the idea that Rhaegar took "his Northern girl" at swordpoint, and thinks it's romantic- and anything Dany thinks is a positive , scares me. :eek:

It's always bothered me that Rhaegars faction never refer to her as "Lady Lyanna," (only Selmy), "Lady Stark," "Lyanna of House Stark," etc.

It's always "that Stark girl, his "Northern girl," or "the wolf girl."

Names that are impersonal.

And what's strange about that? Rheagars family can in now way know for certain what happened between Rheagar in Lyanna, but they have absolutely no reason to like her. This girl has cost them everything, their crown, their land, most of the family. Oh, they may blame Rheagar also, but he was family, and Targaryen. She was just a northern girl, and most of the realms don't really like northerners and their strange gods. The fact that Starks were one of the main houses in the rebellion that ended the rule of Targaryens, can make the survivors quite bitter about them as well. I would really be surprised if they called her anything else, to be honest.

They were either two very noble people, with a purity of spirit that fate intended for one another.

Or

They were two very flawed soul mates, and one could only understand the other, nor could one exist without the other.

Or

They fell somewhere in between, and this is not a story about love conquering all, but love ruining all- at least for the Kingdom as Selmy alludes.

The last one, I think - but I feel that saying Lyanna was just a passive, willing or unwilling, victim of Rheagar cheapens her character considerably. Reducing the wild, strong girl to someone who becomes just a object of Rheagar whim, who can abduct her and she doesn't have a say in that seems wrong to me. And the whole plan is rash and reckless, more fitting the wolf-blooded Lyanna than the introverted Rheagar.

[Bushido]

I don't have the quote,but during the stretch plate episode just before Hand's tournament,when Robert is commenting on how Lyanna would have never embarrassed him like Cersei had,and Ned replies that Robert saw Lyanna's beauty but not the steel deep under,so supposing that Lyanna is a passive element in the story is wrong.

[Sapphire]

- The Wolfs blood: It could mean that she is just unconventional enough, and passionate enough about whats right and wrong, she defied the conventions of her day to rebel and fight for a man who was being bullied.

I think someone who feels that strongly, to don armour and fight for this boy has a care for honor.

I don't dislike Rhaegar, but I do feel in the build-up of his character as this Targaryen paragon, there will also be a deconstruction, and for those who are totally into Rhaegar, I think there is a tendancy for the need to make everyone around him more complicit than may be true in order to preserve his pristine character:

- Elia knew and approved of what he was doing and planning. That may be true, BUT, it may also not be true. However, if it wasn't true, then that doesn't bode well for Rhaegars character.

- Lyanna who was willing to cast aside one man for infidelity was willing to run off with a married man who had Heirs, shaming not only herself, her House, but her Fathers Bannermen and the entire North.

We make fun of the judgement of the Starks, yet we see that Rhaegar Knighted Gregor Clegane, the man who would ironically rape and murder Elia

.

If we can believe that Lyanna would eschew all vestages of honor when honor seems very important to her, then why is it impossible to believe that Rhaegar would do the same thing to be with her?

I think this is an example of literary extremes and Rhaegars arc:

He goes from being the worst kind of evil, (from Roberts POV), to this almost "cultish" admiration of Rhaegar.

What we start to see from Selmy as he gradually discusses Rhaegar with Dany, is that he will likely fall somewhere in between, as with all the characters in the book.

Bad people who do good things, good people who do bad things, and yes, that can be true of Lyanna as well.

I am a Lyanna fan, but understand she was not perfect, and on some levels complicit in what happened, but I do think Lyanna was a bit more honorable than she is being given credit for.

As I said, I don't dislike Rhaegar, or think he is a bad guy, and believe that what has been said of his great honor is true, but what is also true of his character are his dwellings on dark things, melancholia, and sadness.

Falling in love with someone you can't have is likely to exacerbate an already depressed person, perhaps making him desperate enough to believe via a prophesy he's doing the "right" thing, eschewing his own honor, and that of his own family.

Just approaching this with caution.

@Alia of the Knife

I, particularly, prefer to think Lyanna had a more active/complicit part in all that happened not because of my love for Rhaegar, for I love both characters equally, but because I refuse to believe someone like her were willingly choose to honor her father's arrangement and marry someone like Robert Baratheon when there was an alternative. We just don't know that she was that honorable; Howland is always brought up when trying to make that point, but as far as we know she might have (subconsciously or not) just used the "I'm defending my father's bannerman's honor" as an excuse to beat some stupid squires and take the only chance she had of ever jousting in a tourney.

But even if that wasn't the case, honor and duty are different qualities.

As things stand, if Rhaegar is the only one to blame, Lyanna becomes too much a victim of a man's obsession and possibly unexpected consequences from her impulsivity in the KotLT business, and, at least for me, the character ceases to be interesting. (I'd say the same about Elia - if she was aware of Rhaegar's plans and made some sort of deal with him to have an advantage when all the mess was concluded, she becomes a much more interesting character - a player - than the poor, sickly, wrong wife).

It's not that hard to understand why no character has ever pointed that she had a part in it. First, because the only two that "knew" Lyanna and had the chance of talking about all that were Robert and Ned, and neither has any interest in pointing her complicity - Robert won't even acknowledge that possibility, for it stains his pride. And also because she died at the end of all this; when a person dies in a tragic/mysterious way people close to her tend to excuse/forget her own part in her fate and simply blaming any available external factors for that. Which would be Rhaegar. And the absence of any thoughts from Ned blaming Rhaegar for all that does suggest that Lyanna's part was greater than acknowledged.

You both make excellent points and I agree that a complicit Lyanna and consenting Elia are far more interesting chacrters than a kidnap victim and a wronged wife. I myself used to go back and forth on whether Lyanna was as dutiful and honorable as we've come to expect Starks to be. My gut tells me Lyanna had a broader sense of honor than Ned's black and white one. I see no disconnect in a girl who not only comes to the aid of a man being beat senseless, but seeks further justice against his tormenters and the same girl later rejecting her father's marriage plans and eloping with a man of her choosing. Could be she thought her father's word could handle this one dent without sacrificing her happiness. And with Robert being such a shameless womanizer, she probably thought he'd get over it fast enough.

Whatever was going on behind the scenes, after their meeting if she is the KoTL, and the run-up to the crowning, I would bet Rhaegar was not subtle about his feelings as deception was probably not a natural part of his character.

He may have thought his attraction to her was going unnoticed, but just like in the real world, it was most likely painfully obvious. While people were shocked that he actually crowned her, the POV's make it seem as though something has been going on for awhile, and didn't just happen at the moment of the Tourney.

And again, if she was acting inappropriately towards him, I would think that Rhaegars people would be the first to happily mention it.

Somehow it's become my personal head canon that Rhaegar crowned Lyanna in a bid to have her be a tourney champion in the only way he could and only later realized he'd fallen for her. Now I'm seeing Rhaegar acting like a big goober with a dumb look on his face any time Lyanna was in vicinity and his companions rolling their eyes at him. We need a Jon Con Harrenhal flashback asap. He would have known what was up. :laugh:

[Lady Octarina]

Somehow it's become my personal head canon that Rhaegar crowned Lyanna in a bid to have her be a tourney champion in the only way he could and only later realized he'd fallen for her. Now I'm seeing Rhaegar acting like a big goober with a dumb look on his face any time Lyanna was in vicinity and his companions rolling their eyes at him. We need a Jon Con Harrenhal flashback asap. He would have known what was up. :laugh:

What an image! :rofl:

But the way JonCon acts I doubt he would acknowledge Rhaegar's interest for anyone but himself :dunno:

I think this particular mystery can only be solved by either Ashara, who was probably close to Elia, and to Rhaegar through Arthur, or the worldwide weirwood network.

[Maxpey]

sorry if mentioned before....

I wonder why would Ned travel with a newborn baby and just one companion just after his sister's death to Starfall to rturn Dawn to Hause Dayne. It seems reckless to travel with the baby he promised to save into hostile terittory before even burying his sister just to retufn a sword. What was the haste? Reading the discription of Darkstar again I too beleive there was a baby, but it was not Jon. It is stated that Rhaegar's dearest friend was Arthur Dayne, so is only resonable to entrust Rhaegar's only surviving son with the Daynes

I don't currently have the english version of the book (someone might help me) but in GOT in Eddard's chapter when he meets Cat in LF's brothel sais something like "it won't be the first time I will ally with someone I dislike". Perhaps he did it in the past to save Lyanna's child, for I can't imagine shat would make the honorable Ned ally with someone he didn't like, just as he did while imprisoned in order to save his daughters.

The idea that Ned was able to travel from the TOJ to Starfall with a newborn baby without anybody noticing has always bothered me.

I am thinking that perhaps Arthur Dayne sent for Ashara and Wylla around the time Lyanna gave birth to Jon. Lyanna, knowing the danger Jon was in, gave him to Ashara and asked that she take him back to Starfall. When Ned arrived at the TOJ, Lyanna told him everything that had happened and she made him promise to protect Jon. Ned then went to Starfall under the guise of returning Dawn to the Dayne family but he really went there to assume care of Jon.

Ashara showing up in Starfall with Jon would explain the rumor that Ashara had a child. It would also explain the rumor that Ned was the father of Ashara's child because he arrived at Starfall with just his escort but left with the newborn Jon. This rumor gained credence when Ashara allegedly committed suicide shortly thereafter. This would also explain the story that Ned Dayne told Arya about Ashara being Jon's mother and Wylla being his wetnurse.

The biggest problem that I see with this theory (other than the obvious reliance on speculation) is the presence of the KG at the TOJ, as they were there to protect Jon. One possible explanation is that Ashara and Wylla were able to smuggle Jon out without them knowing. Another possible explanation is that the KG were willingly acting as decoys. If anybody came looking for Jon at the TOJ, the presence of the KG would make them think Jon was there. In reality, he would have been safe with Ashara and Wylla at Starfall.

Again, just floating an idea out there.