R+L=J v.28

[three-eyed monkey]

I do believe that R+L=J, and not because I personally want to, but it just does make the most sense.

I think because it makes the most sense, is what led people to this conclusion to begin with, and then people became enamored of the idea.

I think what may be at speculation is the nature of the R+L's relationship, and what happened, and given that the cast of GOT have apparently gotten the "restraining order" lifted, and they're openly talking about it in what appears to be the affirmative, probably signals that Martin wants to confirm it so he can get on with his life and the book.

However, to your point, I think it may come down to what may have happened between Brandon/Ashara, or Ned/Ashara, and there could still very well be a Stark/Dayne child to serve that purpose.

For a long time, I use to believe Darkstar was too old to be concieved at Harrenhal, but since we actually don't for sure what his age is, I can't discount it.

I know someone mentioned that Arianne, who is twenty-three, seems to think of DS as a man, but what was considered a man in those days?

How old was Robert when he became Lord of Storms End?

Robb is around sixteen as he's kicking the crap out of Tywin.

I, just speaking for myself, after reading DS story and Lady D's description of Brandon Stark see a lot of similarities between the Wild Wolf and Darkstar(k).

AFoC:

" I shall reamain Darkstar, I think. At least it is mine own."

He unsheathed his longsword, sat upon the lip of the dry well, and began to hone the blade with an oilstone.

He kept his face clean shaven, but his thick hair fell to his collar like a silver glacier, divided by a streak of midnight black.

He has a cruel mouth, though, and a crueler tongue.

In revisiting that statement, "At least it is mine own," that also seems a little cryptic as he refers to that name.

Is it ibecause he didn't get the name "Sword of the Morning," or could it be an reference to something else about his name?

He also says: " I am of the Night."

If you consider much of the Wolf Imagry, and myths, they have been referred to as "the children of the Night."

ADwD:

Lady D.: "Brandons sword is gone as well"

" He would hate that.

"Brandon loved his sword. He loved to hone it.

Brandon: " I want it sharp enough to shave the hair from a womans c^*t," he used to say, and how he loved to use it.

"A bloody sword is a beautiful thing," he told me once.

Brandon was never shy about taking what he wanted.......

Just my opinion. :)

But that streak of midnight black might hint more towards Baratheon blood, don't you think? And he tries to take out Princess M in an attempt to start a war against the iron throne, which might be motivated by a thirst for revenge if he has a Baratheon connection. That's just a quick thought, I'm not sure what Darkstar theories are out there.

I do like your Darkstar(k) though. :bowdown:

[King Jon Snow]

I don't think I had heard about any comments by Sean Bean on this subject - what exactly did he say?

:eek:

I dont think GRRM told any of the actors anything, i know they ask him questions but i think they say they cant get any thing out of him,but if he told anyone anything that revealing it would be benioff and weis(tv series writers)

[nothatso]

I dont think GRRM told any of the actors anything, i know they ask him questions but i think they say they cant get any thing out of him,but if he told anyone anything that revealing it would be benioff and weis(tv series writers)

Allegedly he told Alfie Allen, but I agree otherwise.

[Ribupr]

I am not partial to the theory R+L= Aegon, Jon, Meera as triplets. But its possible,

Aegon and Rhaenys ACTUALLY died as babies during the sack of Kings Landing. And the vision Dany had of Rhaegar was with Elia and the first Aegon. After Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna and got her pregnant, the second Aegon went with Ashara Dayne (septa Lemore) and Jon Connington to prepare to get his throne back since he was the eldest of the three. Jon went with Ned, and Meera went with Howland Reed, because he was the only one who knew of the children because he was there (Also the 3 kingsguard members protecting 3 children is kind of symbiotic).

Aegon got the looks of Rhaegar. Jon inherited the appearance of Lyanna. I cant say with Meera because I think all that time in the Neck has changed her looks to make her appear as a crannogmen. This gives Rhaegar his three living children, with the first two dead. The three heads of the dragon (the Targaryen sigil) coming from one dragon, with 3 children coming from one womb is another parallel.

On a side note, I think Meera knows what truly happened (if this theory is correct) along with Jojen.

[vleeter]

Hopefully this familial anecdote may provide some insight on Ned's thoughts on Jon. Most of you have probably never adopted a child into your family. My parents adopted a baby girl 11 years ago. Furthermore, this child also happened to be my cousin (so the niece of my parents). Seeing the parallels? I'm now 20 and can tell you that I don't see an adopted girl or a cousin when I see her. She is my sister, just as she is our parents' daughter. She looks just like my father and I: tall (for her age), blonde hair, blue eyes. Yes, in the very back of our heads we know the truth, but we don't even think about it because we're accustomed to the life.

I personally believe R+L=J, but I can see my experience being valid for both sides of the debate. I would say that Catelyn doesn't consider Jon a son because she feels slighted (and this is apparent in the books) that Ned would have a child with another woman. Obviously, whatever the truth behind Jon's parentage, Ned knows it. He wouldn't list off Jon in his head as his son because he would know the truth (definitely probably RLJ).

[Alia of the knife]

But that streak of midnight black might hint more towards Baratheon blood, don't you think? And he tries to take out Princess M in an attempt to start a war against the iron throne, which might be motivated by a thirst for revenge if he has a Baratheon connection. That's just a quick thought, I'm not sure what Darkstar theories are out there.

I do like your Darkstar(k) though. :bowdown:

Well, the Starks that look like real Starks are noted for their dark hair, probably varying shades of dark brown to Black.

And no need to bow down, as Maxpey noted, it's nice to get "something right."

[starkfever]

alright so i am rereading the first book and I came across a line that seemed to support R+L=J and I'm sorry if it was stated already but it was in the chapter where ned and Robert are headed south to kings landing and they ride out by themselves.

Ned thinking...

"Troubled sleep was no stranger to him. He had lived his LIES for fourteen years, yet they still haunt him at night."

At this point Jon is only 14 so that could be assumed as one of the lies assuming R+L=J. But one thing I find interesting is that he doesn't say lie, but rather lies. Now what else had he lied about, for those who think lyanna had twins or tripletts maybe that is the reason lies is plural. what else had he been lying about this whole time??

[Dr. Pepper]

alright so i am rereading the first book and I came across a line that seemed to support R+L=J and I'm sorry if it was stated already but it was in the chapter where ned and Robert are headed south to kings landing and they ride out by themselves.

Ned thinking...

"Troubled sleep was no stranger to him. He had lived his LIES for fourteen years, yet they still haunt him at night."

At this point Jon is only 14 so that could be assumed as one of the lies assuming R+L=J. But one thing I find interesting is that he doesn't say lie, but rather lies. Now what else had he lied about, for those who think lyanna had twins or tripletts maybe that is the reason lies is plural. what else had he been lying about this whole time??

I'm unsure why the twin/triplet theory is so popular this week.

I think the lies were all related to Jon. He lied to his wife about fathering a bastard, he lied about breaking his vows, he lied to Jon about who his true father was, he lied to his king, he lied to nearly everyone in the realm. He lied about who the mother was when people thought it was Wylla. He lied about what happened at the TOJ. It's not one lie to one person. It's many lies to many people in order to pass off Jon as his bastard son.

[Snow_Shrike]

@ Alia of the Knife:

Lady D (Lady Dustin) is talking about the sword in the Crypt which is gone from Brandon's tomb because Osha took it. IIRC Starks bury their dead lords in a vast crypt in individual tombs. Each tomb has a stone effigy of the lord inside sitting with a sword across his knees on top of the tomb itself. Osha took the least rusty of these swords. (Brandon's). She had no other weapon after hiding in the crypt from Theon's Ironmen.

I do not think it has any connection to Darkstar at all.

[Snow_Shrike]

I'm unsure why the twin/triplet theory is so popular this week.

I think the lies were all related to Jon. He lied to his wife about fathering a bastard, he lied about breaking his vows, he lied to Jon about who his true father was, he lied to his king, he lied to nearly everyone in the realm. He lied about who the mother was when people thought it was Wylla. He lied about what happened at the TOJ. It's not one lie to one person. It's many lies to many people in order to pass off Jon as his bastard son.

I agree totally. It's the burden of countless lies, not countless bastards, that plagues Ned Stark's sleep.

[FrozenFire3]

alright so i am rereading the first book and I came across a line that seemed to support R+L=J and I'm sorry if it was stated already but it was in the chapter where ned and Robert are headed south to kings landing and they ride out by themselves.

Ned thinking...

"Troubled sleep was no stranger to him. He had lived his LIES for fourteen years, yet they still haunt him at night."

At this point Jon is only 14 so that could be assumed as one of the lies assuming R+L=J. But one thing I find interesting is that he doesn't say lie, but rather lies. Now what else had he lied about, for those who think lyanna had twins or tripletts maybe that is the reason lies is plural. what else had he been lying about this whole time??

I'm unsure why the twin/triplet theory is so popular this week.

I think the lies were all related to Jon. He lied to his wife about fathering a bastard, he lied about breaking his vows, he lied to Jon about who his true father was, he lied to his king, he lied to nearly everyone in the realm. He lied about who the mother was when people thought it was Wylla. He lied about what happened at the TOJ. It's not one lie to one person. It's many lies to many people in order to pass off Jon as his bastard son.

Book one is probably one of the most revealing of all the books actually. There are many interesting quotes and thoughts. This is one of the many... a life of lies. But I agree with Dr. Pepper on this. The lies are many but they are only related to Jon. The theories about twins/triplets are, in my humble opinion, a bit too stretched. It started out as R+L=J and I think that's just it... it's all the more tragic and fascinating I think. A boy who's the result of a passionate and sad love story, who grew up with his uncle never knowing the truth, hated by many, envied by even more. A boy who became a man of the night's watch, renouncing to whatever claim he might have had to the throne, without knowing it.

[Queen of Thornes]

The theory that Jon was Lyanna's son hit me like a ton of bricks somewhere in the last half of GoT. I remember because I had to flip back to re-read some stuff, including Ned's dream after he broke his leg. My reasoning:

• Tyrion noted that Jon was very much a Stark
  
• Cateln lamented that fact that Jon looked more like a Stark than any of her trueborn sons
  

(Supports the idea that Jon is definitely a Stark by blood. He could be Ned's son, but necessarily- Ned had siblings- Brandon, Benjen, Lyanna)

• Lyanna made Ned promise her something as she lay dying. There was blood in the room, the smell mingled with scent of roses. Scent and events being often linked in memories, this seems to have stayed with Ned.
  
• She was desparate, but relaxed when Ned promised what she wanted.
  

(Blood could equal clhldbirth. She could also have gotten in the way in the fight between Ned and his men and the white knights, but chlidbirth fits better. A dying woman is likely to rest more easily if she can believe that her newborn will be safe).

• Ned's reaction when Catelyn askes him about Jon parentage and Ashara Dayne. A reaction so estreme that years later Catelyn still remembers it with some trepidation.
  
• Ned's reaction to the Winterfell rumour mill and its speculation about Jon's parentage. One gathers from the book that the whispering stopped, forthwith.
  

(Ned has deep and strong emotions about Jon's mother. Could be an old flame, yes, but then I realised that it could also be his sister. "Sister" fit well with the type of man Ned seemed to be.)

• Ned acknowledged Jon and raised him. And loved the boy, which people (i.e. Catelyn) didn't seem to understand.
  

(In this society, its seems to be ok to acknowledge your bastards, but not to bring them home. There was clearly something unusual about how well Ned treated and obviously loved Jon. Recall the scene when they found the direwolf pups.)

But who was the father? I pinned it in Rhaegar later when I gleaned more of what at TOJ. The fact the three of the Kingsguard where there as well suggested to me that Rhaegar had no intention of letting Lyanna leave and more importantly wanted a little muscle around. Makes sense if there's a possibility that the men in her life were very likely to come for her and not likely to be in a good mood when they got there. Lyanna or maybe something that she had- like a baby?- was important enough that Rhaegar split up the Kingsguard at a time when their battle skills would be sorely needed. And it wasn't just any three, it was three badasses. A lot of muscle. Remember Ned's eqation- seven against three and only he and Reed survived?

Meera's version of the Harrenhal Tourney gives us a little understanding of Lyanna. She wasn't like Sansa, all gentle, sweet and swooning. If she didn't like Rhaegar, then he was going to have to kidnap her. But maybe he didn't have. Bt she was still a girl. She seemed capable of being headstrong and doing as she pleases and also falling for a beautiful noble Prince with a deep sensitive soul.

But I wonder if prehaps, she did go along with Rhaegar at first, all excited by this Dragon Prince. And then realised what he wanted and that, like most Targaryens, the man was a little crazy. Ends up raped, held hostage and gives brith to Rhaegar's "third dragon head". Jon.

[Fire Eater]

The theory that Jon was Lyanna's son hit me like a ton of bricks somewhere in the last half of GoT. I remember because I had to flip back to re-read some stuff, including Ned's dream after he broke his leg. My reasoning:

• Tyrion noted that Jon was very much a Stark
  
• Cateln lamented that fact that Jon looked more like a Stark than any of her trueborn sons
  

(Supports the idea that Jon is definitely a Stark by blood. He could be Ned's son, but necessarily- Ned had siblings- Brandon, Benjen, Lyanna)

• Lyanna made Ned promise her something as she lay dying. There was blood in the room, the smell mingled with scent of roses. Scent and events being often linked in memories, this seems to have stayed with Ned.
  
• She was desparate, but relaxed when Ned promised what she wanted.
  

(Blood could equal clhldbirth. She could also have gotten in the way in the fight between Ned and his men and the white knights, but chlidbirth fits better. A dying woman is likely to rest more easily if she can believe that her newborn will be safe).

• Ned's reaction when Catelyn askes him about Jon parentage and Ashara Dayne. A reaction so estreme that years later Catelyn still remembers it with some trepidation.
  
• Ned's reaction to the Winterfell rumour mill and its speculation about Jon's parentage. One gathers from the book that the whispering stopped, forthwith.
  

(Ned has deep and strong emotions about Jon's mother. Could be an old flame, yes, but then I realised that it could also be his sister. "Sister" fit well with the type of man Ned seemed to be.)

• Ned acknowledged Jon and raised him. And loved the boy, which people (i.e. Catelyn) didn't seem to understand.
  

(In this society, its seems to be ok to acknowledge your bastards, but not to bring them home. There was clearly something unusual about how well Ned treated and obviously loved Jon. Recall the scene when they found the direwolf pups.)

But who was the father? I pinned it in Rhaegar later when I gleaned more of what at TOJ. The fact the three of the Kingsguard where there as well suggested to me that Rhaegar had no intention of letting Lyanna leave and more importantly wanted a little muscle around. Makes sense if there's a possibility that the men in her life were very likely to come for her and not likely to be in a good mood when they got there. Lyanna or maybe something that she had- like a baby?- was important enough that Rhaegar split up the Kingsguard at a time when their battle skills would be sorely needed. And it wasn't just any three, it was three badasses. A lot of muscle. Remember Ned's eqation- seven against three and only he and Reed survived?

Meera's version of the Harrenhal Tourney gives us a little understanding of Lyanna. She wasn't like Sansa, all gentle, sweet and swooning. If she didn't like Rhaegar, then he was going to have to kidnap her. But maybe he didn't have. Bt she was still a girl. She seemed capable of being headstrong and doing as she pleases and also falling for a beautiful noble Prince with a deep sensitive soul.

But I wonder if prehaps, she did go along with Rhaegar at first, all excited by this Dragon Prince. And then realised what he wanted and that, like most Targaryens, the man was a little crazy. Ends up raped, held hostage and gives brith to Rhaegar's "third dragon head". Jon.

Check out this

[Alia of the knife]

I agree with Daughter of the Morning. I mostly believe Darkstar is B+A, my only problem with it is that I'm not sure the Starks have it in their genes that kind of hair. But well, since in ASoIaF characters will occasionally have two-colored hairs that seem unrealistic in our world, maybe that's not really a problem after all.

As to the age thing, I really don't see it as much of a problem. If he's 17, 18 in AFFC, and it seems he and Arianne had sex, well... I just think that if that sex was satisfactory, Arianne will tend to see him as a man no matter how old he is.

But hey, Alia, great arguments in #172! See, we can agree on something other than The Walking Dead. :cool4:

It's hard to say with Westerosi genetics, because realistically, Darkstars hair sounds like he needs a root job.

With the Martels and Targs, it's seems that they produce one, or the other, and in the case of Jon, he takes after Lyanna, however, if they had had other children, she could still produce a blonde, but I don't think the Stark seed as prominent as the Royner in the Martels, so between Dayne and Stark, it could be a "wash."

Out of all Ned and Caitlyn's children, only "two" really look like the Starks.

But, I am in no way an expert on genetics.

And on Arianne and DS, I think it would be potentially the same as Tommen and Margery, so I don't think it would matter to her in terms of a casual affair.

We agree on a lot of things! We just had our first disagreement which I'll probably be wrong about anyway , :laugh: (but I will be a shut-in on the weekend of July 7th and 8th for the Walking Dead Marathon. It's going to be me, the cats, and a bottle of wine- as well as a nightlight since Hubby's out of town). :unsure:

[Alia of the knife]

@ Alia of the Knife:

Lady D (Lady Dustin) is talking about the sword in the Crypt which is gone from Brandon's tomb because Osha took it. IIRC Starks bury their dead lords in a vast crypt in individual tombs. Each tomb has a stone effigy of the lord inside sitting with a sword across his knees on top of the tomb itself. Osha took the least rusty of these swords. (Brandon's). She had no other weapon after hiding in the crypt from Theon's Ironmen.

I do not think it has any connection to Darkstar at all.

No, I realize the myth of the Stark Dead needing their swords, but I was referencing Lady D's personal account of Brandon.

After reading that Brandon had no issue taking what he wanted, and seemed to seduce highborn girls, (really kind of a dangerous as well as somewhat arrogant), as well as probably lowborn, Ariannes reference to Darkstars "breathtaking arrogance, " also came to mind, so their personalities and certain attributes just really seem similar.

[y ddraig]

I love the idea of a great conspiracy to dethrone Aerys, but if you think it's too far-fetched, I guess a Rhaegar/Rickard partnership would work as well on its own.

I mean, imagine this:

Rhaegar meets Lyanna at Harrenhal; they fall in love but can't do much about it. Rhaegar goes back to Elia but soon learns she can't have any more children. Maybe he's becoming convinced the Song of Ice and Fire must involve him and Lyanna in some way.

He rides to Winterfell and formally asks Rickard for Lyanna's hand, either planning to cast Elia aside or to revive polygamy and take Lyanna as his second wife. He knows about Rickard's ambitions to make good southron marriages for his children, unusual for a Stark - so, to think he'd be thrilled by Lyanna marrying the crown prince wouldn't be completely unfounded . And since Ned and Benjen were still unspoken for, Rhaegar could have offered to pull some strings there, too. Make Ned Lord of Somewhere Important, marry him to Cersei, find Benjen a Tyrell, anything.

Now Rickard ... he's very, very tempted, but his carefully forged alliances make it pretty much impossible to say yes. Not just the Baratheons; Jon 'high as honor' Arryn wouldn't have stood for it, and the Tullys probably wouldn't like the whole thing either. Then, someone has a cunning plan: Rhaegar 'abducts' Lyanna. Rickard will be furious, consider his daughter dishonoured and threaten to call the banners unless Rhaegar does right by Lyanna and takes her to wife. Rhaegar 'comes to his senses', does what Rickard demands, and once he's king makes amends by giving Lordships to Ned and Benjen, or whatever it is he and Rickard agreed upon beforehand.

How they plan to handle Robert would depend on whether or not they know how much he loves Lyanna ... but I don't think they'd see him as much of a threat. The Martells' reaction would depend on what's the plan regarding Elia. But even if Rhaegar was planning to cast her aside, her son would still be heir to the throne. I can imagine this looking like a good deal to Rickard. Definitely profitable, although not exactly honourable. I wish we knew more about Starks who aren't Ned or Ned's.

In short: Rhaegar makes Rickard an offer he cannot refuse. Someone has A Cunning Plan. No one tells Brandon and things go pear-shaped. Everyone dies.

[Alia of the knife]

I love the idea of a great conspiracy to dethrone Aerys, but if you think it's too far-fetched, I guess a Rhaegar/Rickard partnership would work as well on its own.

I mean, imagine this:

Rhaegar meets Lyanna at Harrenhal; they fall in love but can't do much about it. Rhaegar goes back to Elia but soon learns she can't have any more children. Maybe he's becoming convinced the Song of Ice and Fire must involve him and Lyanna in some way.

He rides to Winterfell and formally asks Rickard for Lyanna's hand, either planning to cast Elia aside or to revive polygamy and take Lyanna as his second wife. He knows about Rickard's ambitions to make good southron marriages for his children, unusual for a Stark - so, to think he'd be thrilled by Lyanna marrying the crown prince wouldn't be completely unfounded . And since Ned and Benjen were still unspoken for, Rhaegar could have offered to pull some strings there, too. Make Ned Lord of Somewhere Important, marry him to Cersei, find Benjen a Tyrell, anything.

Now Rickard ... he's very, very tempted, but his carefully forged alliances make it pretty much impossible to say yes. Not just the Baratheons; Jon 'high as honor' Arryn wouldn't have stood for it, and the Tullys probably wouldn't like the whole thing either. Then, someone has a cunning plan: Rhaegar 'abducts' Lyanna. Rickard will be furious, consider his daughter dishonoured and threaten to call the banners unless Rhaegar does right by Lyanna and takes her to wife. Rhaegar 'comes to his senses', does what Rickard demands, and once he's king makes amends by giving Lordships to Ned and Benjen, or whatever it is he and Rickard agreed upon beforehand.

How they plan to handle Robert would depend on whether or not they know how much he loves Lyanna ... but I don't think they'd see him as much of a threat. The Martells' reaction would depend on what's the plan regarding Elia. But even if Rhaegar was planning to cast her aside, her son would still be heir to the throne. I can imagine this looking like a good deal to Rickard. Definitely profitable, although not exactly honourable. I wish we knew more about Starks who aren't Ned or Ned's.

In short: Rhaegar makes Rickard an offer he cannot refuse. Someone has A Cunning Plan. No one tells Brandon and things go pear-shaped. Everyone dies.

I always speculated that whatever Rhaegar was really doing, or what Rickards intentions might have been, the conversation that Rhaegar and Jaimie had more to do with his personal situation as much as changing things for the better, which I don't doubt he would want to do as well.

Rhaegar to Jaimie: "When this war is done, I mean to call a great Counsil. I should have done this long ago, but ahh, best not to dwell on roads not taken."

I have a feeling that this had a lot to do with keeping Lyanna as his wife.

Rhaegar knew that he should have dealt with his Father a long time ago, but "just" came around to it?

The reality is, as long as Aerys was King, he would never sanction the union of Lyanna and Rhaegar, child or no child, so if he was to keep Lyanna, he had to be King.

[Black Wolf Smith]

Rhaegar to Jaimie: "When this war is done, I mean to call a great Counsil. I should have done this long ago, but ah, best not to dwell on roads not taken."

I have a feeling that this had a lot to do with keeping Lyanna as his wife.

Rhaegar knew that he should have dealt with his Father a long time ago, but "just" came around to it?

I am not sure about the Lyanna part, but I think that it proves that he wasn't at Harrenhall to go against the MK. After the MK had the Starks killed and war had broken out that R "just" came around to it seems to prove the negative.

[Jolene Brown]

Or it could mean he intended to do it (go against Aerys), got distracted by Lyanna, and now wishes he had stayed on-task.

[Alia of the knife]

I am not sure about the Lyanna part, but I think that it proves that he wasn't at Harrenhall to go against the MK. After the MK had the Starks killed and war had broken out that R "just" came around to it seems to prove the negative.

I think it's fairly certain that Rhaegar had not wanted to face the situation with his Father.

Even Connington alluded to that.

Whether it was the burning of the Starks specifically, or declaring war on the Nobles, Aerys desire to especially punish the Starks, and go after other "offenders" galvenized Rhaegar to realize Aerys was a loose cannon, but he was always a loose cannon.

Rhaegar was born of resentment and grief.

His parents animosity towards one another probably not lost on him,

And the Starks likely not the first nobles put to the fire, only perhaps one of the most powerful nobles.

It's likely that Aerys and Rhaegar had a love/hate relationship, and so Rhaegar knowing what he knew of his Father, but also in denial, shied away from what really needed to be done- until he had a powerful motivator to finally do something- the woman he wanted, and whose family members were killed.

I don't think it's mutually exclusive that Rhaegar wants to do right by the realm, but also achieving a personal aim.

But, it took "the personal aim" to be the prime motivator to do right by the realm.