Tyrion's marriage prospects

[Tyrion_is_Omar]

I don't think Brienne would have accepted him to be honest. She would have challenged him to duel and won like she did her last suitor, and Tyrion would have been such a laughingstock that Tywin would have probably disinherited him in his shame.

He killed a man with a shield. :laugh: Or maybe he would have choosed Jaime as his champion( Im thinking in a world pre war, not in the current situation).

Or maybe Tyrion would choose Bronn as his champion and Brienne would realize that there's more to a possible husband than just a good warrior...

Naah, seriously, they's be a horrible couple: she would judge him honourable and evil, and he would think she's dull and boring.

Agree that would have been an awful couple. I love them both, but they couldn't work as a couple. , but Im amaze that in a world pre war Tywin never thought there is a female heir in Tarth that nobody wants. Why not marry her with Tyrion?.

I always thought tht Tywin wanted to get ride of Tyrion and that was an opportunity of send him away.

[Kittykatknits]

PS: I can see KittYKaknits's point rationally... but from an emotional point of view I hope he will find the love he's looking for.

(yeah, I'm such a girly girl, this goes straight in the "girls what do you like in the series" thread) :drunk:

I'm not advocating a life of celibacy or anything even close to that. I think he needs to figure out how to be happy on his own rather than look for it from a woman. If and when he does this, then Tyrion would be in a position to enter in to a relationship from a much healthier place.

Also, so I don't get into trouble

That thread was almost as epic as Nedbert.

[Evamitchelle]

A "get hold of yourself" slap is acceptable to me in extreme situations.

I'd agree, but given the age and potential power difference I think this one is rather inappropriate. Especially since he's indirectly responsible for her brother's death, and has already been shown to be slapping women for no good reason (the woman I'm paying to sleep with me made fun of me once is not a valid reason to slap someone IMO).

You keep writing that Tyrion complains that beautiful women don't want to sleep with him, but I can't see that in the books.

He wants a woman to love him. And he's jealous of other people in happy relationships (the scene at Joffrey's wedding :crying: ).

But he never thinks "that woman is so shallows because she can't see past my physical appearance". He doesn't judge women for not wanting him.

He's interiorized Tywin's judgement ("No one will ever love you, they'll just pretend for your gold") and see this as an harsh reality, something that can't be avoided.

Before Jaime told him Tysha wasn't a prostitute he didn't seem to care much that she'd been raped, only that she had not really loved him. Then when he realizes that Shae never loved him he strangles her with his chain, and he is pretty bitter towards Sansa for "abandoning him" : "One flesh, one heart, one soul. His mouth twisted. She wasted no time proving how much these vows meant to her, did she ? Well, what did you expect, dwarf ?" That is 100% unfair towards Sansa, who was a 12-year-old forced bride whose family had been murdered by his.

[Batman]

Even as a Dwarf I wonder if Tyrion would be a considered a worthy match for someone from House Karstark, Bracken or Mormont.

[Natalie_S]

How can you say he didn't care, he's haunted by Tysha's memory!

It's a conflict between rationality (Tywin raised him to despise whores who try to fool highborn men to gain power- see his father's concubine, and his "lesson" was that that was the way to treat them) and his conscience (he basically says to Bronn that one day will have his revenge on his father for that, and that was much earlier than when Jaime told him she was a crofter's daughter).

I wrote once a very long post about it, I'll look for it later.

Same as for Shae's murder.

He's very bitter when he thinks of Sansa but to me the key sentence is "Well, what did you expect, dwarf ?".

That's what I meant: he's almost more bitter towards himself because he fooled himself into thinking that he could have had a real relationship with Sansa, or some lines later, that Shae would have cared about him getting married "A part of him had hoped for less indifference, but now you know better" etc.

[Evamitchelle]

How can you say he didn't care, he's haunted by Tysha's memory!

It's a conflict between rationality (Tywin raised him to despise whores who try to fool highborn men to gain power- see his father's concubine, and his "lesson" was that that was the way to treat them) and his conscience (he basically says to Bronn that one day will have his revenge on his father for that, and that was much earlier than when Jaime told him she was a crofter's daughter).

I wrote once a very long post about it, I'll look for it later.

Same as for Shae's murder.

I didn't say he didn't care about the Tysha incident, just that until he learned she wasn't a whore he only cared about what the incident meant for him, when he should have been worried about the 13-year-old whose gang-rape he participated in. His initial reaction to the incident is "They paid her fair enough", which is pretty horrible. And Bronn's comment is "Thirteen or thirty or three, I would have killed the man who did that to me" not "I would have killed the man who had my wife raped". It's only after Jaime tells him she really was a crofter's daughter that it becomes "She was my wife !".

He's very bitter when he thinks of Sansa but to me the key sentence is "Well, what did you expect, dwarf ?".

That's what I meant: he's almost more bitter towards himself because he fooled himself into thinking that he could have had a real relationship with Sansa, or some lines later, that Shae would have cared about him getting married "A part of him had hoped for less indifference, but now you know better" etc.

I think he calls Sansa his traitor wife again in ADwD, which is totally uncalled for. She was a 12-year-old prisoner who was forced into marrying him FFS, she didn't owe him either her loyalty or her love.

[Kittykatknits]

I think he calls Sansa his traitor wife again in ADwD, which is totally uncalled for. She was a 12-year-old prisoner who was forced into marrying him FFS, she didn't owe him either her loyalty or her love.

He thinks of Sansa a couple times in Dance. The quote you are referring to is when he reflects on the different women and the says something about them all being false. I don't have the exact quote handy though.

[Evamitchelle]

He thinks of Sansa a couple times in Dance. The quote you are referring to is when he reflects on the different women and the says something about them all being false. I don't have the exact quote handy though.

I don't have Dance at hand either, and I'm not sure of the wording of the sentence, but I do think it was something along the line of how she'd betrayed him. Well he already blamed her once in Storm, which is one time too many if you ask me.

[1234567]

Indeed even the line "what did you expect dwarf" seems to have him again blaming his dwarfism (something outside his control) rather than his own behaviour. Tyrion seems to take no responsibility for hurting others or his his own harmful actions towards others, until he finds out about Tysha. Even then, it is only Tysha he feels guilt over. He never actually feels any guilt for what he's done to Sansa.

[Winter's Knight]

Here:

“Was she your wife? She ... she was very beautiful ...”

And false. Sansa, Shae, all my women ... Tysha was the only one who ever loved me.

[Kittykatknits]

Here:

That's the one I was thinking of. The only other time he thinks of her is when he compares Sansa to Penny:

She reminded him of Sansa Stark, the child bride he had wed and lost.

I did a quick global search of the name "Sansa" in Dance; Jon thinks of her more than Tyrion does.

[Winter's Knight]

That's the one I was thinking of. The only other time he thinks of her is when he compares Sansa to Penny:

I did a quick global search of the name "Sansa" in Dance; Jon thinks of her more than Tyrion does.

Interestingly, he compares Sansa who never even pretended to love him with Tysha who did.

[Woman of War]

Am I the only one who thinks that Tyrion's story arc is deliberately not about marriage?

Tyrion is very insecure about his looks and the ability of women to ever love him. But, the old maxim that you can't expect anyone to love you unless you love yourself holds very true for him. There is more than one path to happiness in life and I believe he needs to figure that out. To me, Tyrion is at his best when he is able to use his wits in times of stress such as his time in the Vale, the mountain clans, coming up with the chain idea, sold in to slavery, and the Second Sons. I like Tyrion in what I always call his politician role. He really enjoys it and is very good at it, when he does not allow his insecurities and weakness interfere, his time in KL with Cersei and Joff being the prime examples.

Tyrion has been looking for acceptance and a wife is not the only way to get that.

No, you are not the only one. Though I would want Tyrion to find a woman that is clever and interesting. Well, no need for marriage, marriage itself is a distinctly reactionary concept, having a paramour is sexual revolution :D

Let him live and love happily!

I think Tyrion wants to belong somewhere, if there will be a woman for him - this may happen or not , anyways I am not sure that he will survive the story. But there is my personal crackpot theory that Tyrion will end with taking care of one or more children that are not his own. For example a child of Daenerys or a child of Sansa who did not survive. This child would by law be Tyrion's and he might bring it up because he feels responsible. Well, I have no textual evidence or quotes for this, it is only a feeling. And Tyrion that way might find the emotional place where he belongs.

[Kittykatknits]

No, you are not the only one. Though I would want Tyrion to find a woman that is clever and interesting. Well, no need for marriage, marriage itself is a distinctly reactionary concept, having a paramour is sexual revolution :D

Let him live and love happily!

I think Tyrion wants to belong somewhere, if there will be a woman for him - this may happen or not , anyways I am not sure that he will survive the story. But there is my personal crackpot theory that Tyrion will end with taking care of one or more children that are not his own. For example a child of Daenerys or a child of Sansa who did not survive. This child would by law be Tyrion's and he might bring it up because he feels responsible. Well, I have no textual evidence or quotes for this, it is only a feeling. And Tyrion that way might find the emotional place where he belongs.

Well, I disagree on the Sansa bit. :) But otherwise, I like the theory. I've long wondered whether he would survive or not, with my main reason for thinking that he would not is because he is Martin's favorite. If he does, I don't think it will be until close to the end though.

But, I think a paramour makes sense. I don't want a life of celibacy for him, as I'd said in an earlier post. I think he needs to figure out how to be happy by himself before he is ever going to be happy with a woman. He tried that before and it turned in to a Tysha 2.0 situation. He seemed to be happy in a political role so his challenge is to pursue that or something that will also gain satisfaction for him, yet not succumb to it as the corrupting force that I think we saw with him in KL.

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

Marriage prospects? I was kind of hoping Tyrion and Bronn would end up as heterosexual life partners, and we would get the Westeros "Pinky and The Brain" series that we all deserve!

[Tyrion_is_Omar]

I do believe that the recognition/reward for Tyrion's character is not going to be married with beautiful woman, but be recognize for his intelligence.

[Lady Lea]

Personally I think Tywin was lying to convince Tyrion to marry Sansa.

Dwarf or not, I find it really unlikely that there wouldn't be at least a few greedy fathers among the nobility willing to have his daughter married to the son of the richest man in the realm.

if Karstark was willing to give his daughter away to just anyone... pretty sure there'd be people ok with Tyrion. Tywin was definitely lying.

[Swordsaint]

Tyrion will be Lord of Casterly Rock. Between Dany, The White Walkers, and dragons. His murder of Tywin will either be forgotten or rewarded. I think he'll marry a fair looking common woman just to stick it up his father's arse.

[Natalie_S]

I didn't say he didn't care about the Tysha incident, just that until he learned she wasn't a whore he only cared about what the incident meant for him, when he should have been worried about the 13-year-old whose gang-rape he participated in. His initial reaction to the incident is "They paid her fair enough", which is pretty horrible. And Bronn's comment is "Thirteen or thirty or three, I would have killed the man who did that to me" not "I would have killed the man who had my wife raped". It's only after Jaime tells him she really was a crofter's daughter that it becomes "She was my wife !".

The comment about the payment was obviously bitter and sarcastic.

He cries recalling the incident and he agrees with Bronn when he talks about revenge:

"Thirteen or thirty or three, I would have killed the man who did that to me.”

Tyrion swung around to face him. “You may get that chance one day. Remember what I told you. A Lannister always pays his debts.”

Also you can't blame him for "partecipating" in her gang rape: that's exactly what abusers do.

They make the abused part of the deed so they can say "see, you took part in it, you wanted to, you can't complain now".

I copy and paste from another thread because I'm lazy :) :

Then, even if he never state it, remorse about Tysha is all over his chapters. He talks about it everytime he can (it doesn't take a psychologist to analyse that), to Bronn, to Sansa, to himself, he dreams about her when he's been wounded, he's literally obsessed.

I believe you have to consider again the world they're living in.

What he has been taught all his life is that whores get paid for sex, and that's their job. There's no such thing as human rights in Westeros.

He's been brought up by Tywin, who sent his father's lover naked in the streets, and who told him that the gang rape was the correct way to deal with a women that had deceived him into marrying her, that had made a fool of him and brought ridicule on the House Lannister.

At 13, he has no way not only to stop the deed, but also to rationalise it, to understand that his father is a mad man. That's the education he's receiving.

We can only imagine what Tywin said and did to him when he got back to Casterly Rock: he probably made him feel so ashamed of himself and so humiliated (again, he was 13!!!) that probably he didn't even realise that he could (and should have) gone to look for Tysha, apologise, ask her the truth or whatever.

Still, he knows that this is wrong. He can't vocalise why it is wrong, because his culture and his upbringing taught him that a prostitute's job is having sex, and she did and was paid for it, so it should be fine.

But he's haunted by the memory, as only someone who's feeling deeply guilty can be.

He's in a clash between emotions and mind, between what he feels and what his taught he SHOULD feel, or actually what he shouldn't feel.

His father's influence is still so strong in his life and he can't question his authority yet (also Cersei is in a constant, useless effort to gain Tywin's approval).

But then, Jaime tells him the truth: Tysha was not a whore, just a girl.

The little excuse that kept all his hatred for Tywin and his state of mind on a sort of balance ("she was a whore, it was her job, it was no big deal to her") falls apart and he completely breaks down, releasing all the emotions and rage that he had kept in himself for all those years.

I think he calls Sansa his traitor wife again in ADwD, which is totally uncalled for. She was a 12-year-old prisoner who was forced into marrying him FFS, she didn't owe him either her loyalty or her love.

He talks about Sansa and Shae and calls them "false". I think it refers to the fact that both his marriage and his relationship with Shae were a farce, the first because they weren't married except in name, and the latter because she never cared about him.

[Evamitchelle]

Yes, as I said before there is no doubt that what happened with Tysha marked him for life. But he never shows any remorse for what happened to her until he learns that she wasn't a prostitute. Before he learns the truth he thinks of her as a whore first. For example : "They paid her fair enough. A silver for each man, how many whores can command that high a price ?" when he reveals the truth to Bronn, "Lies, he thought, all feigned, all for gold, she was a whore, Jaime's whore, Jaime's gift, my lady of the lie" when he dreams of her in Clash and "Lady Tysha." His mouth twisted. "Of House Silverfist. Their arms have one gold coin and a hundred silver, upon a bloody sheet" in Storm when he marries Sansa. He mentions the fact that she was a whore practically every time, the fact that she was raped only comes up once or twice.

So yes, he is haunted by her, but he's only focusing on the "she was a lying whore who never loved me" part when he should be concerned with the "I watched the girl I loved be raped by a hundred men" part.

He talks about Sansa and Shae and calls them "false". I think it refers to the fact that both his marriage and his relationship with Shae were a farce, the first because they weren't married except in name, and the latter because she never cared about him.

The first was false because he was paying her to pretend to like him (the whole "laugh at my jokes and mourn me if I die" speech) and the second never cared about him because she was a 12 year old forced into marrying him whose family he actively fought against and whom he groped on their wedding night. But instead of realizing that Sansa could never care for him because his family killed off hers and has been abusing her for the past year, he calls her a liar and blames everything on his dwarfism, as he is wont to do.