Mad Targaryans?

[Howlin' Howland Reed]

I guess my initial point was poorly worded. All I meant was that kicking over a cyvasse table because you lost is not a healthy sign. Why would GRRM bother to include it if it didn't mean anything?

It could also be to contrast what he really is (spoiled brat) with what Varys seems to believe he is (best leader ever).

ETA: I'll add that your Viserys comparison is pretty spot on, though.

[DurararaFTW]

Note: I didn't say he was doomed to madness. I said I thought it was a sign of him having the taint because it reminded me of Viserys. Viserys never would have walked into the pyre, sacked cities or beat a dragon into submission. But he probably would have kicked over a cyvasse table.

Viserys would have never have locked his sisters in a tower cause he was afraid of sex or danced naked through the red keep or ridden into Duskendale with barely any protection or walked the boneway barefoot to make peace after his great brother got killed by the Dornish or upended a pint of wildfire. Viserys being all bluster is just him being human, it's hardly examplary of "the taint".

[Howlin' Howland Reed]

Good points. Viserys was not a very stable young man, but not necessarily suffering from classic Targ madness either.

[Prince of Dragonstone]

I think that Viserys would have been a terrible king, but not due to being insane. He was just a Grade A shithead. There is a big difference between the two. For example, Maegor and Aegon the Unworthy were pathetic rulers, but not out of madness like Baelor and Aerys II were.

I don't think knocking over a cyvasse table warrants being labeled with the "taint". Also, I'll never get where people come up with the idea that Dany is crazy in a any way, shape or form. Given her young age and the tremendous amount of pressure put on her I'd say she has done a great job of not having a meltdown.

[Silmarien]

No offense but no its not, it's a direct result of being born of incest. "Aegon" is not a good case in point because he is

1. Not Born of incest (Elia is allegedly his mother) the same would apply to Jon should R+L

=J

2. It's highly unlikely that he is Targaryen at all.

Also I wouldn't discount Viserys, he was rapidly going mad during the time we knew him.

Wait, being born of incest has nothing to do with Targ madness.

Aerys II was mad as a hatter and he wasn't born of incest!

facepalm

[Dimadick]

I think that the whole thing with the madness is blown out of proportion, both in the setting and among the fandom. I mean, really, which Targaryens are downright crazy? Aerys, maybe Viserys (though his case might as well be just a severe form of douchebaggeriticus); from the history we have Aerion Brightflame, Rhaegel and maybe Baelor the Blessed. And that's about it. Two characters from the books and maybe three from history. Against tens of perfectly sane and normal Targaryens (some of them were dicks or slobs, but they were perfectly fine mentally).

Rhaegel was mad? Because he liked to dance naked? I thought he was merely an exhbitionist.

Then again, I don't see what incest has to do with insanity. We haven't heard of much inbreeding among the Tullys and Arryns, but we don't really have any particularly sane individuals among them either. I think the Targaryens are pretty much normal when it comes to their physiological and psychological conditions. A couple of exceptions every generation or so is not that different from the Westerosi general population.

[Valyrian Spoon]

I guess theres probably threads dedicated to Rhaegars state of mind when he abducted/eloped with Lyanna. I imagine that he suffered from some sort of Narcississtic personality disorder in this reguard, I also like the suggestion he was manic depressive.

[The Butler of Tarth]

I guess theres probably threads dedicated to Rhaegars state of mind when he abducted/eloped with Lyanna. I imagine that he suffered from some sort of Narcississtic personality disorder in this reguard, I also like the suggestion he was manic depressive.

I've seen some speculation that Rhaegar was bipolar - even earlier in this thread - and I think it explains him perfectly:

-"I'll just sit in this tuined castle and write poetry"

-"Hell! I'm going to be a great warrior! Dayum!"

-"Nope, I'll sit here and mope"

-"Hell yeah! Winning the tourney like a boss! Now I'll kidnap myself a new girlfriend and give her a magical messiah baby!"

-"Feeling a bit sad now. I think I'll sit here with my new girl and sing her song while the realm goes to shit."

-"Hell no! Imma smash Robert's army and then I'll replace my father on the throne and be the bestest king ever!"

-"Something weighs heavy on my chest. I think I'll just lye down here, in the river"

As for the topic and the mental state of the entire Targ dynasty - remember that the 'two sides of the coin' is just a metaphor. Most of the dragon kings were neither actually mad, nor particularly great. Sure, there were civil wars, internal strife and acts of excessive cruelty but most of the time it wasn't anything worse than what sane real-world rulers did to others and themselves.

[Dragon-Wolf]

Wait, being born of incest has nothing to do with Targ madness.

Aerys II was mad as a hatter and he wasn't born of incest!

facepalm

Good point, apologies if my tone seemed provocative but I did prefix the paragraph with "no offence" and with everything that has been written since re: Aegon being mad for kicking over a Cyvasse table, it is curious you would call me out on that small detail.

Although technically the whole family has incestuos blood running through it since the days of Aegon the conqueror. Sure Aerys's parents were not related but you don't have to go very far back to find relatives/ ancestors, of his who were brother and sister. (Aegon IV for example).

If not incest then what do you think is the reason that Targaryens have a propensity for madness?

Oh, and I shall give you a "golden hand" should you ever feel the need to facepalm me again. (Lighthearted Joke x)

[zelticgar]

If not incest then what do you think is the reason that Targaryens have a propensity for madness?

I've always chalked up the Targaryen line's tendancy for insanity as a mix of genetic and environmental factors.

Being born into powerful familiies can sometime cause a breakdown into a persons view of societal norms. Power can corrupt and twist a person. The Kennedy family comes to mind as a modern example but there are many examples of tragic families throughout history. I think these environmental factors are a major part of the cause but the added corruption of the gene pool adds a variable that makes them even more likely to act in unpredictable ways.

[Gingerly Grumkin]

I really don't belive in this taint. It's anti-monarch Targacisist propoganda.

Aerys' reign was in troubled times, his Lords just realized that a Targaryen dynasty needs dragons to survive; So Hoster, Rickard, Jon and Robert created an alliance. Aerys was by all means a bad ruler and left his rebellious son to deal with most matters of state (who also appears mad, but the prophecies are real so he's not mad just...aware). This turned out to be a terrible move, but still sane, and procceded to hire the famed Spider. Varys shows Aerys every slight the Prince and Tywin are making causing Aerys to alienate himself. The ordeal with Rickard Stark & Son was evil, cruel and illigal but no more mad then killing 50% of the wedding guests. And the ordeal with "burn them all" is because Aerys doens't want to Robert’s fat ass sitting on Aegon Targaryen’s throne built off the blood and submission of the Andals (Robert's ancestors)

Viserys was also not mad. He was a homeless child that had the greatest dynasty ever on his back, but to make matters worse he also had to raise a baby from infancy. That’s mad. But he did it, Dany is healthy, kind, knowledgeable and literate. Viserys followed Drogo because he was afraid that Drogo wouldn’t honor his agreement, which is understandable the Beggar King is no stranger to being thrown out. When Viserys stole the eggs it was well within his rights, he’s not just Dany’s big brother, he’s Dany’s king and whatever she owns is his. When Jorah stopped him Viserys forgot himself and pissed off Drogo.

I don’t know much of the Targaryens before them but I know Dany. I know that she’s cool with grabbing hot dragon eggs and can walk into a pyre and only lose her hair. “The Dragon can’t be burnt” she didn’t invent that saying, most/some/a few Targaryens can’t, so I don’t find it mad if some Targ drank wildfire.

And regarding that saying about the coin, it may be true, but differently worded, like ½ the monarchs are crazy. Or if you belive you are king because of law, your crazy. (i.e. Stannis, Joffrey, Euron)

[jarl the climber]

Remember what Mr. Spock said to Kirk., "In an insane world, the sane man appears insane."

[Rheagar Prime]

man i do think its an unfair slag the targs get when only 3 targs were legit batshit crazy. The rest were simply poor rulers or arrogant douches thats it not mad, one isn't born mad they are simply made so by circumstances much like what is seen by aerys II and his son viserys. Although this can be argued but i always hate psychology class.

dany and aegon i see no taint of madness. For dany i see a self entitled, annoying at times along with incompetent but domineering not mad. Aegon if a disfigured imp was insulting my family and me along with chastising me how he was smarter than me i would be pissed too and turn over the game. I don't see how him turning over the game was madness and age doesn't matter when one is insulted (its just biased hate by fans to me). I don't seeing anyone saying bradon was mad going to KL and beating on the door demanding the death of the crown prince (knowing the king was mad at the time too) i see that has mad yet it is bypassed because either he is a stark or because he was emotional his sister was captured and family was insulted. Well i see that for aegon with tyrion.

[Smokingfinehash]

Daenerys the Mad Queen. It is known.

[danm_999]

Yeah I think George is definitely laying the groundwork in case Daenerys goes crazy.

Viserys and Aerys are described as going crazy as part of a process, of slowly becoming more and more paranoid, and having these flashes of anger which increase in duration.

You can really see all of this in Daenerys in ADWD. She might not, but I wouldn't think it's from left field if she does.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I'm thinking the madness is a result of inbreeding, so if R+L=J is true, Jon's chances of becoming "mad" are lessened. However, I think it's been hinted at that you have to have two Targaryen parents in order for dragons to "like" you.

Hinted where, exactly?

On the topic of Targ madness, I agree with those who say it's more of a slow burn and might not be evident right off the bat. Things that at one moment seem kind of innocent can in hindsight be clues to impending madness. Like Barristan saying that he knew Viserys had the taint — it's easier for him to say that in hindsight, knowing how Viserys turned out. Could he see a taint in Viserys but not Joffrey, who I'd argue was more inherently twisted?

Also, you can detect a clear pattern between the Targs who were insane/batty/cuckoo for cocoa puffs and those who weren't: The stronger they identify with fire and dragon imagery, the kookier they get.

[Winterfell is Burning]

Aerys wasn't born of incest, nor Rhaegel (sp), nor Brightflame, and not Baelor the Blessed as well. Being born of one incestuous relationship isn't necessarily the problem, but rather the fact they have been doing it by generations, causing long term issues even when the child wasn't born out of incestuous relationships.

I am of the thought that Aerys the mad king fathered Jaime and Cersei probably during the bedding ritual of Tywin and Joanna Lannister. The famous incest twins ARE the two sides of the Targaryen coin, Cersei is madness and Jaime, now that he is around Cersei less, shows greatness. Remember in his youth, when he was a squire and young knight, he was incredible for his age, although somewhat impulsive.. Around Cersei is when everything is nuts for him. Bottom line: incest betweeen sibilings = a very high probability for unstable offspring. How else to explain Joff?

The twins were born four years after the wedding.

Jaime is well and far away from greatness as well. And Joffrey's madness is at least in part explained because of his upbringing.

And funny enough, I believe that Rhaegar, the supposed prince perfect and paragon of the Targaeryens, was manic depressive, as seen by how he was both capable of long periods of melancholy and short bouts of determination to work hard at something.

Oh, I agree. I have always defended that Rhaegar was a disturbed individual as well, and in the future he potentially might as well have become as mad as his father.

[Every]

I'm not convinced that Viserys was mad, or at least not convinced he had some kind of special Targaryan incest madness. He was an ambitious, cruel man who held delusions of greatness (delusions which had been actively nurtured by the people who raised him) but he was no more ambitious, cruel or deluded than dozens of other characters in the series.

[SerBrightflame]

Which is pretty fucking mad. She's not trained in her dreams like Jojen is. It was a desperate act like when the Targaryen king drank wildfire

Actually Aerion Brightflame was never king, he was just showing off to his friends.

[danm_999]

I'm not convinced that Viserys was mad, or at least not convinced he had some kind of special Targaryan incest madness. He was an ambitious, cruel man who held delusions of greatness (delusions which had been actively nurtured by the people who raised him) but he was no more ambitious, cruel or deluded than dozens of other characters in the series.

Barristan describes young Aerys as prone to lapses of madness and rage that began as initially small and isolated, but eventually became his personality.

It sounds an awful lot like what happens with Viserys when you "wake the dragon", or some of the rages Daenerys feels.