Mad Targaryans?

[Thendel]

To anyone claiming Aegon's behavior after losing to Tyrion indicates he is insane, do you guys not have overcompetitive friends at all? One of my friends came to an event we set up on the beach to play volleyball and grill out for an afternoon / evening. The very first game him and his team got beaten badly and he slammed the ball down and stormed home, the rest of us stayed out for another 4-5 hours as planned. Back in college I had a friend who would lose to me in Madden, throw my controller onto the ground with force, and then go home and not talk to me until he cooled down. Personally I just want to have fun, don't care if I win or lose games which have no real stakes to them...but some people are just wired to always want to win and be, frankly, assholes when they don't. These guys are / were older than Aegon is in the books BTW.

Did I think my friends were crazy or insane? Not at all, both of those guys are actually really cool and have given me good, sound advice multiple times. They just are bad sports, it is a personality flaw of theirs IMO. But not one that makes them bad people. So I refuse to put so much weight on Aegon being a bad sport.

Think of it this way, if you didn't know Targaryans historically had a propensity for madness, would you even have cared so much he did that beyond just thinking, "what a jerk".

Well said. An 18 year-old kicking a cyvasse table never struck me as a fit of unreasoned madness, just an indication that this young man's still a brat when he loses. Moreover, I don't believe Dany is crazy either. A bit self-entitled and ditto deluded, yes, and perhaps a little too fond of taking ambiguous prophecies to heart, but definitely not mentally unstable. True insanity would imply that one sees the world in a twisted view, and having read her PoV, we can conclude that she sees the world as well as any 15 year-old girl has a right to.

And funny enough, I believe that Rhaegar, the supposed prince perfect and paragon of the Targaeryens, was manic depressive, as seen by how he was both capable of long periods of melancholy and short bouts of determination to work hard at something.

[Lothar Imbel]

And funny enough, I believe that Rhaegar, the supposed prince perfect and paragon of the Targaeryens, was manic depressive, as seen by how he was both capable of long periods of melancholy and short bouts of determination to work hard at something.

I was about to suggest that myself. I'd also say he was pretty delusional as well, with his kidnap/eloping of Lyanna as well.

[Lord Damian]

Yes I have. But you don't have to be a Targaryan to be mad...Jaime recalls how crazy Aerys looked while looking at fire and sees that same insanity in Cersei's face. But that doesn't make her the spawn of Aerys, just similarly crazy. I would think this would be the dumbest and most unnecessary twist ever if they revealed they were Targaryans.

The entire story has a great multatude of unnecessary twists. This one is just a theory, accept or reject. this is one that has some merrit from a certain poetic point of view. nothing more.

[Dr. Pepper]

And funny enough, I believe that Rhaegar, the supposed prince perfect and paragon of the Targaeryens, was manic depressive, as seen by how he was both capable of long periods of melancholy and short bouts of determination to work hard at something.

I agree. I've always had this idea that the Targaryen madness is actually just a genetic predisposition for bipolar disorder.

[Lothar Imbel]

That would be accentuated by inbreeding? Not sure if that would work genetically but hey, it's not like GRRM is going to win any awards for that any time soon.

[ARYa_Nym]

I'm thinking the madness is a result of inbreeding, so if R+L=J is true, Jon's chances of becoming "mad" are lessened. However, I think it's been hinted at that you have to have two Targaryen parents in order for dragons to "like" you.

I don't think his chances are lessened because I don't believe that Jaehaerys II married a Targaryen so Aerys wasn't inbred. It's not yet confirmed about the generations before. We don't know who Aegon V and Maekar married.

About Aegon I just think he's a jerk. He could go mad though but we haven't seen him enough to know. To be fair Jon has had incidents where he's had a temper. His scene with Tyrion was kind of similar in a bratty kind of way but he was 14 while Aegon is supposed to be around 18.

[Prince of Dragonstone]

I don't know if this is true or not but I could swear that Quaithe only appears to Dany. I mean, we assume that other see her, but I believe only Dany actually addresses her. Could this be real or am I mistaken?

Maybe the "vision" of Quaithe is Dany hallucinating. It adds a whole 'nother level to that storyline if you think about it. It actually is pretty hilarious....

[Dr. Pepper]

I don't know if this is true or not but I could swear that Quaithe only appears to Dany. I mean, we assume that other see her, but I believe only Dany actually addresses her. Could this be real or am I mistaken?

Maybe the "vision" of Quaithe is Dany hallucinating. It adds a whole 'nother level to that storyline if you think about it. It actually is pretty hilarious....

Quaithe is a real person and others see and address her in Vaes Tolorro and Qarth. Dany is the only one who sees her in Slaver's Bay because Quaithe isn't physically in Slaver's Bay. I don't think it's hallucinations, but probably just Quaithe communicating via a glass candle.

[Fantôme]

I don't know if this is true or not but I could swear that Quaithe only appears to Dany. I mean, we assume that other see her, but I believe only Dany actually addresses her. Could this be real or am I mistaken?

Maybe the "vision" of Quaithe is Dany hallucinating. It adds a whole 'nother level to that storyline if you think about it. It actually is pretty hilarious....

Then Dany would have awesome prophetic powers in her insanity.

[Lady Arwen]

What we've witnessed so far with the Targaryens is that, if they are mad, they've been mad since birth. Barristan even comments to Dany that he noticed Viserys had the "taint", which her father also had. It seems to take a huge event in their lives to turn this taint into full on madness, however; for Aerys, this was the Defiance at Duskendale, and for Viserys it was selling his mother's crown.

Daenerys, so far, has shown no signs of the taint. She is very proud and fierce, but not mad (she reminds me of the top business men and women who came from nothing). Aegon, on the other hand, real or not, seems to have the taint (see: his game of cyvasse with Tyrion).

:agree: Dany can be a brat, but I don't see any signs of the Targ "taint" in her. Perhaps they will manifest later on, but I would think, since we've been in her head for nearly five books, that there would be some tell-tale signs if that's the direction Georgie was going in.

And funny enough, I believe that Rhaegar, the supposed prince perfect and paragon of the Targaeryens, was manic depressive, as seen by how he was both capable of long periods of melancholy and short bouts of determination to work hard at something.

:eek: This just blew my mind. You may be on to something here!

Edited for typos.

[What Is Dead Already Died]

There seems to be too much jumping from being pissed or a brat to being mad. Early example of Areys II with taint is when he had Payne's tongue ripped out. I'm ot sure kicking over a cyvasse table is relatable even at a younger age. I'm sure a large % of people here have flipped over a risk game and aren't mad. Dany even more so what has she done that could be seen as taint? If anything shes probably a little to soft to rule westoros right now. She's having a hard time getting a grip in Mereen, how's she gonna hold grip over the seven kingdoms.

To borrow from Roberts its fear that keep them in line. While he might have sucked a lot of things his only major uprising during his 15 year reign was the Greyjoys (I'm pretty sure).

[PatrickStormborn]

:agree: Dany can be a brat, but I don't see any signs of the Targ "taint" in her. Perhaps they will manifest later on, but I would think, since we've been in her head for nearly five books, that there would be some tell-tale signs of that's the direction Georgie was going in.

I agree. The only thing she does that could be argued as a sign of madness is frequently refer to herself as "the blood of the dragon". But the Lannisters like to pretend they're lions, and the Starks frequently call themselves wolves, so I don't think it counts as madness unless we want to declare the whole of Westeros as being "mad".

There seems to be too much jumping from being pissed or a brat to being mad. Early example of Areys II with taint is when he had Payne's tongue ripped out. I'm ot sure kicking over a cyvasse table is relatable even at a younger age. I'm sure a large % of people here have flipped over a risk game and aren't mad. Dany even more so what has she done that could be seen as taint? If anything shes probably a little to soft to rule westoros right now. She's having a hard time getting a grip in Mereen, how's she gonna hold grip over the seven kingdoms.

To borrow from Roberts its fear that keep them in line. While he might have sucked a lot of things his only major uprising during his 15 year reign was the Greyjoys (I'm pretty sure).

I guess my initial point was poorly worded. All I meant was that kicking over a cyvasse table because you lost is not a healthy sign. Why would GRRM bother to include it if it didn't mean anything? Personally I think this is a sign of him possessing the taint. I don't think it means he's going to go mad; I simply think it means that, if something major happened to him, he would be at risk of developing the Targaryen madness, much like Aerys and Viserys. Barristan notes that Aerys was charismatic in his youth, although he had episodes of madness; it wasn't until the Defiance at Duskendale that the taint manifested itself.

As to your second point, Dany has learnt by the end of ADWD that, if she is to take a kingdom with fire and blood, she has to hold it with fire and blood.

[DurararaFTW]

I agree. The only thing she does that could be argued as a sign of madness is frequently refer to herself as "the blood of the dragon". But the Lannisters like to pretend they're lions, and the Starks frequently call themselves wolves, so I don't think it counts as madness unless we want to declare the whole of Westeros as being "mad".

I guess my initial point was poorly worded. All I meant was that kicking over a cyvasse table because you lost is not a healthy sign. Why would GRRM bother to include it if it didn't mean anything? Personally I think this is a sign of him possessing the taint. I don't think it means he's going to go mad; I simply think it means that, if something major happened to him, he would be at risk of developing the Targaryen madness, much like Aerys and Viserys. Barristan notes that Aerys was charismatic in his youth, although he had episodes of madness; it wasn't until the Defiance at Duskendale that the taint manifested itself.

As to your second point, Dany has learnt by the end of ADWD that, if she is to take a kingdom with fire and blood, she has to hold it with fire and blood.

I'm sorry, Dany has done FAAAAR crazier stuff then ragequitting a boardgame cause her opponent was talking about his dead family. People do stuff like that every day.

[PatrickStormborn]

I'm sorry, Dany has done FAAAAR crazier stuff then ragequitting a boardgame cause her opponent was talking about his dead family. People do stuff like that every day.

Examples??!?!?!

Dany has done crazy stuff, yes ... all of which has turned out to be great: walking into a funeral pyre, visiting the House of the Undying, sacking Astapor, making a motherfucking dragon submit to her, etc. etc.

Aegon is a brat. Kicking over a boardgame is stupid and childish, and shows that Aegon is definitely not cut out for leadership.

[Gingerly Grumkin]

What's the difference between mad and powerfull? When one Targaryen conquers Westeros is that mad or powerfull? When experimenting with dragon eggs and wild fire, it that mad or trying to become powerfull? Is stepping into a prye mad or powerfull?

To us, it's all mad. But we're not blood of the dragon. Kings blood is real and magic does exisit, who's to say who's mad and who's unlucky?

[Lady Arwen]

I'm sorry, Dany has done FAAAAR crazier stuff then ragequitting a boardgame cause her opponent was talking about his dead family. People do stuff like that every day.

While Dany has made some bad and irrational decisions (who hasn't?), I'm curious to know what you think she has done that is so "crazy".

And again, I feel like we as readers who are privy to her point of view would have picked up on "insanity" by now. In my opinion, her manner of thinking, while not always logical or wise, is pretty stable.

Walking into the pyre was a bit cuckoo, but remember, she had suffered a miscarriage/stillbirth a few days prior to that and smothered her beloved husband a few hours prior to that. She was physically and mentally unwell at that point as a direct result of these traumatic events.

[PatrickStormborn]

Walking into the pyre was a bit cuckoo, but remember, she had suffered a miscarriage/stillbirth a few days prior to that and smothered her beloved husband a few hours prior to that. She was physically and mentally unwell at that point as a direct result of these traumatic events.

She was also being led by her dragon dream, which saw her literally become the last dragon.

[Gingerly Grumkin]

She was also being led by her dragon dream, which saw her literally become the last dragon.

Which is pretty fucking mad. She's not trained in her dreams like Jojen is. It was a desperate act like when the Targaryen king drank wildfire

[DurararaFTW]

Examples??!?!?!

Dany has done crazy stuff, yes ... all of which has turned out to be great: walking into a funeral pyre, visiting the House of the Undying, sacking Astapor, making a motherfucking dragon submit to her, etc. etc.

Aegon is a brat. Kicking over a boardgame is stupid and childish, and shows that Aegon is definitely not cut out for leadership.

Yeah, I'm not saying that Aegon will be a great king, but saying knocking over a boardgame is a sure tell sign that he's doomed to go insane whilst in the same breath dismissing someone hopping on a firepile, hopping on a rampaging dragon, destroying cities and all that is pretty baised.

[PatrickStormborn]

Yeah, I'm not saying that Aegon will be a great king, but saying knocking over a boardgame is a sure tell sign that he's doomed to go insane whilst in the same breath dismissing someone hopping on a firepile, hopping on a rampaging dragon, destroying cities and all that is pretty baised.

Note: I didn't say he was doomed to madness. I said I thought it was a sign of him having the taint because it reminded me of Viserys. Viserys never would have walked into the pyre, sacked cities or beat a dragon into submission. But he probably would have kicked over a cyvasse table.