Is Wow going to see the Starks vengence?

[Ciazio]

I wonder how much of that the show is going to go into? I'm looking forward to the public reactions.

Yeah, you're right. But they don't need to explain how the pies are made, just to show them and we readers will know... and laugh.

[ktwse]

Interesting topic with lots of good speculation. I've read most but not all of it, so if I repeat someone else's ideas below, I'm sorry for that. To answer the TC, I think that the Stark revenge will have to wait until ADoS, given that - as many others have pointed out - its original title was A Time for Wolves...

From purely the perspective of how GRRM seems to be handling his story and the characters in it, I think it all comes down to story arcs and where characters are in those.

Jon's story arc still has a lot of unresolved aspects (parents, AA, green dreams etc etc). It seems pretty obvious that he's 1. not dead and 2. going to hang around until the bitter end, at one point or another meet Dany (as friend or foe remains to be seen...).

Sansa's story arc is far from fulfilled. She'll remain in the Vale at least for the entire length of TWoW. Chances are she will eventually be the one to bring LF down. Littlefinger's story arc, as it were, doesn't seem to have much left in it...

Bran's story arc also has a long way left to go. Most likely, he'll remain North of the Wall, even to the end. Maybe he sacrifices himself for the world, leaving his body altogether to become the WeirNet, maybe he'll use it to communicate with his siblings. (Bran could very well be one of the bitter components of GRRM's bittersweet comment.)

Arya will be with us a long time as well. It makes no sense for her to be killed off halfway across the world. That's just not how GRRM writes. My bet is she will remain with the FM, and will eventually become one of them, almost entirely losing touch with her own identity. Maybe she's sent back to Westeros on an assignment and only then, in close proximity to Nymeria does she realize who she is.

Rickon... Well, he doesn't have a story arc of his own, but I think he will be LoWF, and I think Davos still has a long way to go in his story arc (I "knew" he wasn't dead last time around in AFfC). I believe we'll hear a lot more about both of them in TWoW. On the other hand, apart from the cruelty of killing off a five year old, Rickon so far has been the least important of the characters from a pure story perspective.

As for story arcs... The Freys have pretty much lost their importance, and I think unCat's story arc will be completed fairly shortly with the Brienne / Jaime resolution. Either already then or after Walder heh Frey sits dead in his throne. Roose's story arc is also nearing completion as is, I believe, Stannis'. Their importance to the overall story, simply put, is not that great anymore. Epic battle between the two of them in WF, but I think the most important things about Stannis arriving at the Wall were actually to 1. bring Melisandre to Jon and 2. to create a threat / obstacle for Bolton. Not saying they will all die in the battle, but most likely at least two out of Roose, Ramsay and Stannis will perish pretty soon in TWoW.

Theon... He will not die yet. As others have pointed out both here and elsewhere, he's still very important for the purpose of canceling the Kingsmoot. However, the ominous ravens with their "tree" and "Theon" still suggest a sacrifice... Maybe Asha will ask Stannis to sacrifice her in Theon's stead. There is after all even an Asha chapter in ADwD called just that...

Lots of stuff, and given the amount of information on this forum (I just recently discovered it and have been spending hours every night reading threads!) most of this has probably already been said elsewhere, but anyways, that's what I believe, and to a certain extent hope for.

But at least one, probably two, of the Stark children will die before the series end. I doubt GRRM will kill off more than that.

Edit: Stannis' death is actually important for a different reason: only then will Melisandre realize he's not AA.

[Northern Vengeance]

6. Jon - even though we are unsure of his fate - I'm assuming he is still LC of the Nigthwatch - allied to, and respected by Stannis and 1000s of wildlings (most of whom would be willing to transfer that allegiance to other Starks).

The free folk follow the man, not the name.

[Northern Vengeance]

I know this is not a fairy tale but you don´t have to kill all the heroes (specially if theu are stark) just to justify that you are a good writer.

George doesn't kill the heroes to justify that he is a good writer. There are no heroes and those who you have mistaken for them were killed because George is a good writer and it is what the story needed, not because he has something to prove.

[Bokora]

I think that this next book may be the better then ASoS. He didn't want to write AFfC or ADWD but to be honest if he would have time skipped we all would have been a little upset for missing some (not all) of the stuff that did happen in those books Frey Pie, John's Death or near death whatever it may be, Cersei's fall, Briene and Jamie, Tyrion's almost underdog story where he comes back from nothing. Anyways that was a little of the topic of this thread but those books were also so hard to read because of the stark's fall and for the most part having very little POV's and movement coming from them. I think it sets up WoW to have alot of Stark movement and play with an ultimate climax of Starkasm in ADoS I mean this is the song of ICE and FIRE and we all know Dany(and i think Aegon, even though he is for sure gonna die, but we will save that for another thread) is the Story of Fire, Ice is the Starks and I think Jon is the balance of the two. GRRM is finally unstuck and I think we will all be pretty surprised how fast he gets out these next two books which both could be written in 2 years a piece he did it with ASoS and I think about everyone has that as their favorite.

[Ghost714]

All I know, is that the Starks will definitely rise to the top again in the North, sometime in the not so distant future. People are always discussing this like it's a question, like they are not sure it will happen. Yet, the answer has already been given to us, I just think its often overlooked, because at the time we here it, the Starks are still in the fight. In ASoS, when Bran and co are traveling through the North to find the 3 Eyed Crow, they encounter the Liddle man in the cave, and Jojen says, "the wolves will come again", and when the Liddle ask how he knows that, Jojen says he dreamed it. Jojen's greendreams have been true so far, so I tend to believe it.

Not to mention, we all know it's time for the Starks to get some recompense, and basically they can only go up from here.

They have suffered enough IMO, and it's time for the enemies of House Stark to know that the Direwolf has a mean bite, and that eventually the pack survives.

[sumant30]

All I know, is that the Starks will definitely rise to the top again in the North, sometime in the not so distant future. People are always discussing this like it's a question, like they are not sure it will happen. Yet, the answer has already been given to us, I just think its often overlooked, because at the time we here it, the Starks are still in the fight. In ASoS, when Bran and co are traveling through the North to find the 3 Eyed Crow, they encounter the Liddle man in the cave, and Jojen says, "the wolves will come again", and when the Liddle ask how he knows that, Jojen says he dreamed it. Jojen's greendreams have been true so far, so I tend to believe it.

Not to mention, we all know it's time for the Starks to get some recompense, and basically they can only go up from here.

They have suffered enough IMO, and it's time for the enemies of House Stark to know that the Direwolf has a mean bite, and that eventually the pack survives.

Very good point about jojen i was re reading ASOS and i too had the same thought when he told that "Wolves will come again" and hopefully also the lion who did not ravage them i.e tyrion though it is wishful thinking because may be GRRM will likely kill all the lions.

[Lord Gautham Girishankar]

Eventually the return of the Starks if dealt in a poetic and practical manner..will make this series an absolute legend...go GRRM, we know you can do it :P

[The Nite Wolf]

George has certainly filled his quota of Stark deaths - it's time for the wolves to rise from the ashes and retake what is theirs! :laugh:

[SpareBoot]

Even if the starks do get a comeback, i don't think that it will be as "kings in the north", considering their only real hope of beating the boltons and the freys is by siding with Stannis. We already know that Stannis will not accept a king in the north, so there is no possible way that he would accept it now. I do think that they will be restored, but only as the Lords in the North.

But if Dany or Aegon do end up conquering Westeros, then there is no hope for the Starks, considering Ned was one of the leaders in the Usurpers rebellion.

There is still wiggle room for the Starks in that scenario, especially if R+L=J. Bran is becoming an extremely powerful, yet pure, character, Sansa is learning to play the GoT by a proven pro, Arya is the most dangerous woman in any kingdom, and no one knows she's alive, which adds to her danger.Robb and Rickon were the only Starks w/o a POV, so I'm not holding my breath for King Rickon. The Starks have a lot going for them, even in these dark times. Winter is Coming, and they are getting prepared.

[Lord Gautham Girishankar]

What if Arya joins Daenarys somehow...she already seems to maybe have Barristan Selmy, Tyrion, Victarion et al most likely...but then again some frustrating twist will come about..

Never know the wolf and dragon might mate ;)

[aryagonnakill]

What if Arya joins Daenarys somehow...she already seems to maybe have Barristan Selmy, Tyrion, Victarion et al most likely...but then again some frustrating twist will come about..

Never know the wolf and dragon might mate ;)

Well it would have to be a different Stark for any mating to happen. But there has been a lot of discussion involving the fact that messinde is a young girl similar in age and size to Arya, and that up to this point her character has been basically unnecessary, and that in the Barristan POV he even asks her advice, or at least talks to her I can't remember exactly. But if the FM wanted Dany dead Arya could potentially be the best situated to do it. I'm not sure how I feel about the theory but its out there.

[Lord Gautham Girishankar]

Well it would have to be a different Stark for any mating to happen. But there has been a lot of discussion involving the fact that messinde is a young girl similar in age and size to Arya, and that up to this point her character has been basically unnecessary, and that in the Barristan POV he even asks her advice, or at least talks to her I can't remember exactly. But if the FM wanted Dany dead Arya could potentially be the best situated to do it. I'm not sure how I feel about the theory but its out there.

I know..when it comes to mating..it would just be the last piece in the jigsaw in ADoS where ice and fire converge or mate..

But Arya could be part of Dany's alliance at some point..interesting

[Adorsuf]

Bran will help with siegecraft and main battles using greenseer powers, and be spy for Others

Rickon will be the rally point for the North and the Riverlands, as well as the Warden of the North

Sansa will be the negiotiator, and get allainces (tyrells, or Dorne+Targaryens)

Arya is the assassin, and will leave FM when Rickon is revealed

Jon will hold the Wall, or somehow stop the Others if/when the Wall is breached

UnCat will take down the Freys, with Tom SevenStreams singing for a major Lannister (Genna) and in Riverrun for Red Wedding v2

Howd i do for first posting?

[sumant30]

Bran will help with siegecraft and main battles using greenseer powers, and be spy for Others

Rickon will be the rally point for the North and the Riverlands, as well as the Warden of the North

Sansa will be the negiotiator, and get allainces (tyrells, or Dorne+Targaryens)

Arya is the assassin, and will leave FM when Rickon is revealed

Jon will hold the Wall, or somehow stop the Others if/when the Wall is breached

UnCat will take down the Freys, with Tom SevenStreams singing for a major Lannister (Genna) and in Riverrun for Red Wedding v2

Howd i do for first posting?

Not bad :D

[Jon Icefyre]

Well Idk what's exactly gonna happen to the Starks in WOW even though I imagine things can only get better for the Starks after everything that's happened to them. However I do know that the original provisional title for the last book in the series(which is right after WOW) was A Time For Wolves and then GRRM changed it to a A Dream of Spring. I imagine one of the reasons(if not the main reason) he changed the title was because it gave away too much of the plot by the title alone. I thinks it's pretty obvious at this point that GRRM is gonna take the Starks who without a doubt were the main house in the first book(and then obviously all the terrible events occurred after that)and put them on top by the end of the series. We'll probably see a lot of the power shift in WOW but I think GRRM is really saving the big move for DOS but you never know with martin lol........And yes Jon Snow will have a huge part to play in it. Like Ned Stark said Jon might not have his name but he has his Stark blood.

[sumant30]

Well Idk what's exactly gonna happen to the Starks in WOW even though I imagine things can only get better for the Starks after everything that's happened to them. However I do know that the original provisional title for the last book in the series(which is right after WOW) was A Time For Wolves and then GRRM changed it to a A Dream of Spring. I imagine one of the reasons(if not the main reason) he changed the title was because it gave away too much of the plot by the title alone. I thinks it's pretty obvious at this point that GRRM is gonna take the Starks who without a doubt were the main house in the first book(and then obviously all the terrible events occurred after that)and put them on top by the end of the series. We'll probably see a lot of the power shift in WOW but I think GRRM is really saving the big move for DOS but you never know with martin lol........And yes Jon Snow will have a huge part to play in it. Like Ned Stark said Jon might not have his name but he has his Stark blood.

Agreed.

[Jon Icefyre]

What if Arya joins Daenarys somehow...she already seems to maybe have Barristan Selmy, Tyrion, Victarion et al most likely...but then again some frustrating twist will come about..

Never know the wolf and dragon might mate ;)

I truly believe Daenarys will end up married to Jon Snow by the end of the series. I know most people think that the distance between them makes it unlikely but i still think it will happen. I think Aegon will take the iron throne and marry before Daenarys gets to westeros. I think by the time Daenarys is finally ready to come to westeros the war with the Others will be just about to begin. Tyrion will tell dany that if she lands south she will have no chance at victory because the southern lords will have established their Loyalty to Aegon and after the war of the 5 kings and the events that occurred after and then having Aegon invade with his Army and take the iron throne the last thing the southern Lords will want is another rebellion all they will want is peace. Especially now that a man who is (falsely) believed to be the one and only true heir is sitting on the iron throne(Aegon the son of Rhaegar grandson of the mad king and last male Targaryen alive ) they won't want to side with Dany to start another unjust war. The south will be too stable for her to raise a rebellion( since Aegon took Tyrions prior advice and took the south when that small window of opportunity still presented itself and now its closed)but the north will still be ripe for the taking. Tyrion being a man who is not only friends with Jon Snow but is also a man who has great respect for the nights watch and truly understands their importance to the realm(since his visit to the wall) will tell dany in order to win the realm she has to save it first and it doesn't matter who sits on the iron throne if the others are allowed to invade everyone is doomed. He will also tell her that if she helps defeat the others she will gain the loyalty of the north and other scattered lords from the riverlands and other war suffered lands(also they will learn about the status of the vale once they land in westeros) in the realm will flock to her giving her the military strength she needs to take on the south. Dany's dragons would be the perfect weapons against the others after all there's nothing that's more effective against the others than fire and who wields fire better than a dragon? Three at that, Dany will realize this is her destiny and in the tv show when they showed her in the house of the undying she had a vision of the iron throne but in the vision the throne room was full of snow including the Iron throne itself. I think this was a foreshadowing that dany has to start in the north to win the south aka the iron throne. So using the ships from the Greyjoy fleet(I don't expect Victorian to make it back to westeros alive) dany will land in the north Tyrion, ser Barristan, and ser Jorah will teach dany and her army how to survive in the winter even though I still think some of her army will die from the cold. I think Stannis will die in the war with the Others before dany gets there. I think once the war with the others is at its most pivotal moment dany will show up with her dragons and obliterate the others with the help of Jon snow and his flaming sword. Dany will meet Jon Snow, bran,and rickon. She will then realize how honorable and loving the stark family is and how much the north loves them and she'll eventually fall in love with Jon. Jon's true identity will be revealed to him (if it hasn't already) R+L=J, and in Dany loving Jon she will finally understand why her brother Rhaegar left his wife Elia to be with the woman he truly loved Lyanna Stark, and threw loving Dany Jon will embrace his Targareyen side. Jon and Dany will marry in Winterfell in front of a heart tree and they will join forces with the full support of the north they'll take care of all the other stuff like giving certain lords new titles, getting the support of the vale with the help of sansa, and taking back the riverlands from the frey(a second tier house anyway). Once they have stabilised themselves they will call Aegon a pretender and rally for a rebellion with the Combined support of Dany's army, the north including the wildlings, the vale, and whatever's left of riverrun,(maybe even the iron islands if Asha can somehow manage to get euron off the thone.) Aegon will call his bannermen in response and The Second Dance Of Dragons War (that GRRM has already confirmed will happen before the series is over) will begin the end result will be Jon and Dany sitting on the Iron throne as king and queen of westeros!!!!! I know its a lot to take in but bare with me on it hahaha....Oh and Arya will find her way to them eventually some way some how

[sumant30]

@

Jon Icefyre

This a fairy tale end to the series :P

[Jon Icefyre]

@

Jon Icefyre

This a fairy tale end to the series :P

Only for Jon and Dany I'm pretty sure GRRM is gonna keep those two on top at the end of the series. But none of the other characters are safe by any means. I just see no other explanation for dany having the vision in the house of the undying of the throne room and the iron throne being completely covered in snow other than dany having to start in the north once she gets to Westeros, and her rallying a rebellion from the north makes more sense from a strategic stand point anyway. It will be impossible for her to win the south after Aegon stabilises it. She'll need the north's support greatly if she hopes to take the Iron throne from Aegon count on that. A lot of other fan favorite characters will for sure die before its all said and done Jon and Dany are just 2 characters in an unending list of amazing characters Jon and Dany will be the the sweet part of GRRM's bittersweet ending he said he would make. The other characters will fill in the bitter part I do not doubt that at all.