'A new queen...younger and more beautiful'

[Ylva]

I'm inclined to think it's anyone but Margaery, just because she's the obvious candidate and because Cersei fixates on her so much.

Sansa would be awesome, though I guess she'd still have some growing up to do.

[Teal'c]

I just read all comments, and someone's Jamie comment just went unnoticed. It's cheeky 'younger and more beautiful' but GRRM could very much put it in as a shocker. Jamie vs. Cersei. I see it happening.

It would be a cool twist but I can't see any way Jaime is involved in Joffrey's death, whereas Margaery certainly is and indirectly Sansa by giving the Tyrells information about Joffrey's cruel nature. Unless Cersei didn't actually hold Joffrey dear.

[Teal'c]

I typed a nice neat table with columns lined up but it doesn't display properly. Have tried to compensate with color:

The rule out parameters: 1. Younger 2. More beautiful 3. Takes away all Cersei holds dear

Cersei holds dear: Compicit in taking away (how): Ruled out because:

Jaime Brienne (Jaime redemption) Nothing to do with Joffrey's death

Jaime (Alienated from Cersei) Nothing to do with Joffrey's death

Some other suspect who kills him?

Some other suspect who alienates him?

Joffrey Littlefinger (Murder plot) Not younger or beautiful

Olenna (Murder plot) Not younger

Tyrion (Found guilty of regicide) Not beautiful

Sansa (Gave info to Tyrells)

Margaery (Murder plot)

Tommen Margaery (alienating him from Cersei)

Myrcella Tyrion (Shipped her to Dorne) Not beautiful

Tywin Jaime (Let Tyrion loose) Nothing to do with Joffrey's death

Tyrion (Killed Tywin) Not beautiful

Power Tywin (Sending her back to CR) Not younger

Kevan (Sending her back to CR) Not younger

High Septon Not younger

Margaery (Loras beats Cersei's champ?)

Beauty No suspects yet

This is a logic problem that we can work because part of the process has already begun.

Begin by listing a reasonable list of what she holds dear. Her family (except Tyrion), power, and her beauty are reasonable assumptions.

Next list suspects who we know or may be compicit in taking each item from her.

Next rule out if missing any one of the three parameters (younger, more beautiful, takes ALL).

Note we lose Tywin as someone she holds dear because we reach a contradiction: we know that Tyrion killed him but he is not beautiful. Therefore the premise is false.

We are left with Margaery or Sansa, one of whom may be responsible later for the death or alienation of Jaime, contribute to Cersei's fall from power, or disfigure her beauty somehow.

[Bushido]

Cercei holds power dear. Her children,she loves them,she is a mother,no question there,that's unconditional love. But,power,that's another matter. Dany will strip her away from power.

Young,beautiful Dany.

[PatrickStormborn]

Cercei holds power dear. Her children,she loves them,she is a mother,no question there,that's unconditional love. But,power,that's another matter. Dany will strip her away from power.

Young,beautiful Dany.

Exactly. Neither Sansa or Margaery are in any position to take away Tommen or Myrcella, and nor do I see any reason for them to do so. That means that the prophecy isn't about Cersei's children -- it's about her power.

[Babeldygob]

I think it's debatable whether Cersei still holds Jaime dear. We know she's lied to him countless times for selfish reasons. She's also cheated on him(Robert doesn't count, that was her duty). Tywin is even more debatable. I do not doubt she respected her father, but she's never showed any signs that she loved him dearly. She didn't cry when he died, all she could think about was that it was her turn now. Beauty is also debatable in my view.

Cersei definitely holds her children dear. It's not because she's a mother that she has to love them, she doesn't view it that way, she definitely loves them even if it because she's a mother. This leaves two possibilities IMO: Margaery and Sansa. The only possibilities who had a hand in Joffrey's death.

She doesn't have a claim to Casterly Rock simply via marriage. Her children conceived with Tyrion would have the claim. Just like Catelyn doesn't have a claim to Winterfell. Only her children with Ned Stark have the claim. If she had remarried and had more children, those children would have no claim to Winterfell.

Then why did all of The Lords of The Vale want to marry Lysa Arryn if they could not win anything by it? Why did everyone want to marry that lady the Bastard of Bolton wed by force(can't remember her name). If all the heirs of Casterly Rock should die, then Sansa, as Tyrion's wife, does hold some claim. A very weak one to be sure, but still worth noting.

There's a very real chance that Sansa marries Aegon, thus becoming a queen. Littlefinger is the supreme master of the game in my view and whatever he's telling Sansa now about Harry the Heir need not be true. Littlefinger must see the chance he has with Sansa as pawn to become even more powerful through Aegon. How not? If in the end Sansa should make him meet his demise, it's still possible. It's also possible Aegon will not rule the Seven Kingdoms when all is said and done, but I believe he will rule until the fight we the Others is done, he dies/is exposed for a Blackfyre, but even then. His rule could be very interesting in my opinion and it's just what the realm needs to mount a capable defense for when The Others come. In any case, I can't see Cersei lasting much longer now that the Tyrells and the Lannister are fighting and Aegon has landed.

Also, why would Margaery take away Tommen? In my view Tommen will love Cersei as long as he's a child and doesn't know any better, so either Cersei has to be prevented from seeing him ever again, without her dying, the same for Myrcella. Margaery won't lock up Cersei because she knows that in the future Tommen might resent her for it, since he will view it as if his wife took away his mother. It would be a bad play and she wouldn't do that. If we look at the circumstances and the most logical steps people are taking and we can only choose between Sansa and Margaery, since Dany had no hand in Joffrey's murder(nor did any other younger more beautiful person), then it seems obvious Sansa is the one. Whether she will directly or indirectly take away all Cersei holds dear remains to be seen, but she will probably have a hand or two in it.

If the marriage pact Sansa would make is all that is needed to tip the scales in Aegon's favor then that marriage alone would be the act where Sansa would take away Cersei's power. Do not doubt that Aegon will kill all the remaining heirs he gets his hands on (Myrcella is already in Dornish hands). Tommen will definitely be killed, even though I like him :(

If the marriage pact makes all this happen than it was Sansa and by extension Littlefinger who took away everything Cersei holds dear through Aegon.

[Sijjvra]

Dany seems the obvious choice, but I don't think she is the correct choice. I doubt she'll actually be alive at the end of the series, where I -do- think Sansa will be.

[Lady Sansa Stark]

How much I want Sansa to be the younger and more beautiful Queen, I'm afraid it's still gonna be Daenerys. Margaery would be a possibility of course, but she has been around for too long to be that queen I think..

[Lady Sansa Stark]

---

Also, why would Margaery take away Tommen? In my view Tommen will love Cersei as long as he's a child and doesn't know any better, so either Cersei has to be prevented from seeing him ever again, without her dying, the same for Myrcella. Margaery won't lock up Cersei because she knows that in the future Tommen might resent her for it, since he will view it as if his wife took away his mother. It would be a bad play and she wouldn't do that. If we look at the circumstances and the most logical steps people are taking and we can only choose between Sansa and Margaery, since Dany had no hand in Joffrey's murder(nor did any other younger more beautiful person), then it seems obvious Sansa is the one. Whether she will directly or indirectly take away all Cersei holds dear remains to be seen, but she will probably have a hand or two in it.

...

Now you're talking about this.. Sansa didn't kill Joffrey herself of course, nor had anything to do with the plot Littlefinger and the Queen of Thorns worked out. However, Sansa told the Queen of Thorns and Margaery what Joffrey did to her, causing the Tyrells to think about the plot and actually carry it out.. So, Sansa was indirectly responsible for his death.

Or is this just wishful thinking? xD

[Faint]

The actual wording is this:

"Aye. Queen you shall be... until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear."

Hard to tell whether Maggy actually meant another queen although it can certainly be read that way.

[PatrickStormborn]

Here's the quote I was referring to earlier:

Next to Rhaegar, even her beautiful Jaime had seemed no more than a callow boy.

[the trees have eyes]

Just a note. I think the language of Maggy the Frog's prophecy is important. It's not "a new queen..younger and more beautiful." It's:

"...until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear.”

I don't believe it will be a queen at all. Just another person younger and more beautiful than Cersei. For various reasons, I think this has already happened and it was Taena that did it.

But doesn't that quote start with "gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds and you will weep bitter tears until..." implying that it hasn't happened yet and won't until poor Tommen and Myrcella bite it.

Given Cersei is / was Queen Regent the threat would be someone to supplant her. She incorrectly (imo) identifies Margaery as that threat which is why she is hell-bent on taking her out regardless of the ruin of the Tyrell-Lannister alliance. Dany seems the obvious threat given that she does have an unsullied army, sellswords, maybe a khalasar too, not to mention dragon(s) and very shortly a fleet as well. Sansa seems less likely as she will either be a pawn of LF, Aegon, other or in a passive role - I don't see her doing the casting down - whereas Dany will definitely be calling the shots.