Septa Mordane - Worst Teacher in Westeros?

[brashcandy]

How in the world would that help them advance in that society?

I'm talking about their personal self esteem. Even if they eventually conform and perform their roles as good wives and mothers, it is wrong to make them feel as though something is wrong with them because they're different or because they envisioned something different for their lives.

[Gingerly Grumkin]

I agree that the Septa was not good, especially in regards to Arya. However if every Septa is bad (Cersei also talked smack also) doesn't the blame fall on the parents? Especially northern Ned?Also Sansa knows her history (or was that the Maester's work?)

[Natalie_S]

Well, for example Jon says to Arya things like "I don't make the rules. life is not fair but that's the way it is" and this seems to reassure her, even if it's not the best motivational speech ever.

If Septa Mordane had told Arya that there was nothing wrong with her in particular but sometimes the rules weren't fair but she best accept them to bend them from within, that might have helped stimulating her challenging mind and make her put more effort in learning, instead of making her feel stupid and unloved.

I expect that was pretty much was what taught to the Tyrells: there are many ways of fighting and one of them is from within.

[Daena the Defiant]

I'm talking about their personal self esteem. Even if they eventually conform and perform their roles as good wives and mothers, it is wrong to make them feel as though something is wrong with them because they're different.

I guess I would just disagree in a fundemental way: I don't think anyone is doing a good job as a parent or educator if that person's methodology is encouraging a quality that is destined to make them fail in adulthood while blaming society at large.

[brashcandy]

I guess I would just disagree in a fundemental way: I don't think anyone is doing a good job as a parent or educator if that person's methodology is encouraging a quality that is destined to make them fail in adulthood while blaming society at large.

Well IMO that approach is just destined to make them fail even worse whilst doing a fine job at breaking their spirit in the process. This is not a trivial case of a child not liking to read so the parent has to force them to do so for their benefit. What we're discussing here are fundamental attributes that define a person's character, and which cannot simply be written off as bothersome traits. As teachers, the Septas' duties were to at least ensure that the young girls have pride in themselves and their unique sensibilities, even if one has to stress at the end of the day that the society will suppress those desires rather than facilitate the fulfilling expression one might wish. It's a slight, but significant emphasis, and it can go a long way towards developing healthy self esteem. A teacher can prepare a student for the society they will meet, but you can also help them to retain the confidence to challenge that society if an opening arises.

[The Fallen]

The good Septa's teaching methods do not get enough attention around here. In the light of how Dany fails at ruling due to lack of advisers and teachers, it's only fair to take a closer look at the Stark daughters' teacher.

First the good stuff: she teaches Sansa about the courtesey armour and is clearly pretty adept at teaching heraldry too.

But...the Septa manages to sell a rather crooked world view to Sansa, and seems to think it's totally ok to believe everything is like the songs and that southern chivalry is the end all and be all which seems fairly arbitrary in a North that has very few knights and which holds to a different religion. She also seems to have had a lot of influence on Sansa's take on the role of a lady, in that the septa has drilled her in being "proper" and not think for herself (the Septa is aghast when Sansa questions Ned's decision in front of Petyr Baelish).

She is also really, really mean to Arya, claims she has the hands of a blacksmith and completely ignores that she's left handed. Further, she also does what I think is her possibly worst crime: she clearly favours Sansa over Arya to the degree that Arya's self confidence is getting a severe dent in it. The Septa also seems to add to the sibling rivalvy between Arya and Sansa in a way no teacher should.

To what degree do you think the Septa is responsible for Sansa's not questioning things in AGOT? And what is her responsibility for poor Arya's dented self confidence? Perhaps even more interestingly, should the Septa take some of the blame for Sansa's and Arya's sibling rivalry?

First, the Septa has a job to do. I'm sure she reported back to Catelyn and it seems that both Ned and Catelyn approved of her performance.

With regards to Sansa, I don't think the Septa instilled an idealistic view of life in Westeros which resembled life in songs as opposed to actual life in Westeros. She is tasked with teaching the girls how to behave properly and to always be a 'lady'. We also know that she taught them 'womanly' arts such as needling (although Arya was interested in a different type of 'Needling'). Would she have taught the girls to be chivalrous and ladylike, I'm pretty sure of that. But there's no evidence that she drilled in them that a gallant knight in shining armor will arrive and whisk them away to a beautiful palace and that they would live happily ever after. I think those are strictly Sansa's own delusions of what life is like. I'm not knocking Sansa, that's simply her personality. Remember, Arya was also taught by the same Septa and she didn't view life in the same fairy tale way that Sansa did and she rejected the notion that a 'girl' was to obey and should never be assertive. You could fault the Septa for teaching them to be subordinate, but I think the Septa is just an extension of what society taught and expected noble girls to be.

The Septa was clearly more fond of Sansa and Jeyne Poole than she was Arya. In her eyes Arya was a problem student and she was tough on her. It definitely had a negative impact on Arya and were it not for Ned and Cat, and especially Jon, it could have destroyed Arya's self-esteem and had long-term effects.

To answer the questions, I don't think the Septa was responsible for Sansa's fairy tale view of life in Westeros. It was simply her personality and naivete and it would have taken a rude awakening to shake her out of it. Unfortunately for her, that awakening came at a steep cost. In a sense, the Septa's teachings actually helped her to survive her predicament by reciting the refrain that a lady's armor is courtesy, or something to that affect. The Septa could've had a lasting negative effect on Arya, but I think Sansa and Jeyne were worse. They constantly made fun of her and called her 'horseface'. Ned soothing Arya and letting her know that the Septa was simply doing her job and that she didn't hate Arya and Jon encouraging and helping Arya to partake of the kind of fun that she liked, mainly being a tomboy, also helped Arya to retain her spunkiness. And regarding the sibling rivalry, it wasn't really a rivalry in that they weren't both seeking to outdo each other nor were they competing for the affections of the Septa. I think they're simply different and rubbed each other the wrong way.

[brashcandy]

First, the Septa has a job to do. I'm sure she reported back to Catelyn and it seems that both Ned and Catelyn approved of her performance.

I would expect that her reports back to Ned and Cat would have emphasised how difficult Arya was to teach rather than the failure of her own teaching methods.

With regards to Sansa, I don't think the Septa instilled an idealistic view of life in Westeros which resembled life in songs as opposed to actual life in Westeros. She is tasked with teaching the girls how to behave properly and to always be a 'lady'. We also know that she taught them 'womanly' arts such as needling (although Arya was interested in a different type of 'Needling'). Would she have taught the girls to be chivalrous and ladylike, I'm pretty sure of that. But there's no evidence that she drilled in them that a gallant knight in shining armor will arrive and whisk them away to a beautiful palace and that they would live happily ever after. I think those are strictly Sansa's own delusions of what life is like. I'm not knocking Sansa, that's simply her personality. Remember, Arya was also taught by the same Septa and she didn't view life in the same fairy tale way that Sansa did and she rejected the notion that a 'girl' was to obey and should never be assertive. You could fault the Septa for teaching them to be subordinate, but I think the Septa is just an extension of what society taught and expected noble girls to be.

I don't think it's strictly Sansa's delusions at all; the Septa herself doesn't look at this world with a critical gaze. She is quick to criticise Sansa on her failure to recognize certain lords; she denigrates Jory's outfit at the tourney, and later gets drunk at the feast, leaving Sansa unattended. The Septa may have been preparing Sansa to enter this world successfully, but the way to do so was not to have her merely recite niceties and know heraldy. The Septa shows through her own actions that she's enamoured with the life of a royal court, and I think this inclination impacted on Sansa significantly throughout the years.

To answer the questions, I don't think the Septa was responsible for Sansa's fairy tale view of life in Westeros. It was simply her personality and naivete and it would have taken a rude awakening to shake her out of it. Unfortunately for her, that awakening came at a steep cost. In a sense, the Septa's teachings actually helped her to survive her predicament by reciting the refrain that a lady's armor is courtesy, or something to that affect.

Learning that courtesy is a lady's armour did benefit Sansa, but it's really the Hound who helped her to fashion that courtesy into something that could protect her from Joffrey's wrath. He also gets her to begin examining her ideas about knighthood and the world around her. When he first tells her about his burns, we see that Sansa, once she gets over the initial shock, is actually able to synthesise this new revelation and determines that Gregor was no true knight. She doesn't collapse from the weight of the shock that all knights aren't honourable, and it's a pity she didn't learn this before from her own Septa.

The Septa could've had a lasting negative effect on Arya, but I think Sansa and Jeyne were worse. They constantly made fun of her and called her 'horseface'. Ned soothing Arya and letting her know that the Septa was simply doing her job and that she didn't hate Arya and Jon encouraging and helping Arya to partake of the kind of fun that she liked, mainly being a tomboy, also helped Arya to retain her spunkiness. And regarding the sibling rivalry, it wasn't really a rivalry in that they weren't both seeking to outdo each other nor were they competing for the affections of the Septa. I think they're simply different and rubbed each other the wrong way.

Jeyne and Arya worse? Sansa didn't even really taunt her sister, and children can get over other children's cruelties rather easily. I think Septa Mordane's constant belittling of Arya's efforts had a much more negative impact on her development. With regard to Sansa and Arya being different, yes, they were, but the Septa's clear favouritism helped to further exacerbate those differences and increase Arya's resentment.

[Jolene Brown]

Is Aegon the only male child we see learning from a Septa? I was trying to think of another and I couldn't think of one.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Is Aegon the only male child we see learning from a Septa? I was trying to think of another and I couldn't think of one.

How many children do we see at all? The Starks, who are First Men and only got a sept after Catelyn wanted one. And maybe a little bit of Cerseis brats, but nothing concerning their education at all.

[Maia]

Thorne is a modern day drill instructor. You can't be nice if you're whipping men in shape within a certain amount of time for combat situations and a change of thinking in that they will obey order.

It is not about niceness, but about effectiveness. Thorne is absolutely useless at teaching them what they need to know - heck, a green 14-year-old is vastly superior to him!

IIRC, Tyrion had some choice things to say about Thorne's abilities as a teacher/trainer and he isn't a man in a habit of being coddled or unable to learn from inimical, but competent teachers.

[Jolene Brown]

It is not about niceness, but about effectiveness. Thorne is absolutely useless at teaching them what they need to know - heck, a green 14-year-old is vastly superior to him!

IIRC, Tyrion had some choice things to say about Thorne's abilities as a teacher/trainer and he isn't a man in a habit of being coddled or unable to learn from inimical, but competent teachers.

His style is also contrasted with Endrew Tarth's, isn't it? Endrew is presented as also tough but far more effective in the way he employs that toughness.

[The Fallen]

I would expect that her reports back to Ned and Cat would have emphasised how difficult Arya was to teach rather than the failure of her own teaching methods.

All she had to do was tell the truth. If she's teaching the girls to needle, for example, and Arya is bad at it and throws a fit and runs out, the Septa doesn't have to spin it in her favor. Both Ned and Cat know Arya all too well and wouldn't be surprised by it.

I don't think it's strictly Sansa's delusions at all; the Septa herself doesn't look at this world with a critical gaze. She is quick to criticise Sansa on her failure to recognize certain lords; she denigrates Jory's outfit at the tourney, and later gets drunk at the feast, leaving Sansa unattended. The Septa may have been preparing Sansa to enter this world successfully, but the way to do so was not to have her merely recite niceties and know heraldy. The Septa shows through her own actions that she's enamoured with the life of a royal court, and I think this inclination impacted on Sansa significantly throughout the years.

I'll agree with you that the Septa is a true believer of what she's teaching the girls. And she acted as if King's Landing was her first actual experience at a court. But Sansa was a dreamer. And I don't think it's the Septa's job to ween her off that illusion she had of life as a noblewoman. That would fall on Ned and Cat. And I don't think they envisioned events unfolding as they did. They probably figured in due time Sansa would come to the realization and then they could explain to her how things really are in Westeros.

Learning that courtesy is a lady's armour did benefit Sansa, but it's really the Hound who helped her to fashion that courtesy into something that could protect her from Joffrey's wrath. He also gets her to begin examining her ideas about knighthood and the world around her. When he first tells her about his burns, we see that Sansa, once she gets over the initial shock, is actually able to synthesise this new revelation and determines that Gregor was no true knight. She doesn't collapse from the weight of the shock that all knights aren't honourable, and it's a pity she didn't learn this before from her own Septa.

I think the second part of my previous answer fits this also. Maybe a different Septa may have given Sansa some insight into the real world. But as a Septa is supposed to prepare noble girls to be courteous, it's probably frowned upon for a Septa to steer the lessons away from their core teachings. Again, it's up to Ned and Cat to give Sansa a sobering account of the real world.

Jeyne and Arya worse? Sansa didn't even really taunt her sister, and children can get over other children's cruelties rather easily. I think Septa Mordane's constant belittling of Arya's efforts had a much more negative impact on her development. With regard to Sansa and Arya being different, yes, they were, but the Septa's clear favouritism helped to further exacerbate those differences and increase Arya's resentment.

I won't argue that Septa Mordane didn't have a negative effect on Arya. However, I disagree that the Septa was worse than Sansa and Jeyne. As children we view teachers as authoritative figures and expect that they'll be tough on us. But your peers calling you names and constantly throwing in your face how much better they are is far worse. Have a talk with a victim of bullying and see if they were able to easily get over how they felt about being bullied and/or teased. All in all, I don't think you can blame the Septa for not curing Sansa of her illusions of what awaited her in King's Landing.

[Lyanna Stark]

I guess I would just disagree in a fundemental way: I don't think anyone is doing a good job as a parent or educator if that person's methodology is encouraging a quality that is destined to make them fail in adulthood while blaming society at large.

How is encouraging a pupil at getting better at what you are teaching them "encouraging a quality that is destined to make them fail"?

You seem hell bent on missing the point: nobody here is advocating the Septa teach Sansa and Arya swordplay. Nobody.

What a lot of people object to are her teaching methods, which are deplorable. She should be encouraging Arya to get better at embroidery, not making Arya feel like a less worthy human being. Let me just reiterate: this has still nothing to do with swordplay.

I won't argue that Septa Mordane didn't have a negative effect on Arya. However, I disagree that the Septa was worse than Sansa and Jeyne. As children we view teachers as authoritative figures and expect that they'll be tough on us. But your peers calling you names and constantly throwing in your face how much better they are is far worse. Have a talk with a victim of bullying and see if they were able to easily get over how they felt about being bullied and/or teased.

You will find very little in the text to support that Sansa was generally awful to Arya. The clashes they have were during the Kingsroad debacle and in Kings Landing. I think you'll find there is no evidence of Sansa bullying Arya at all. Jeyne admits to making up the names, not Sansa. And you know what? Again, the Septa as their teacher should have laid the smackdown on Jeyne, yet did not. Instead she indirectly encouraged the nicknaming by saying things like Arya having the hands of a blacksmith.

[brashcandy]

I won't argue that Septa Mordane didn't have a negative effect on Arya. However, I disagree that the Septa was worse than Sansa and Jeyne. As children we view teachers as authoritative figures and expect that they'll be tough on us. But your peers calling you names and constantly throwing in your face how much better they are is far worse. Have a talk with a victim of bullying and see if they were able to easily get over how they felt about being bullied and/or teased. All in all, I don't think you can blame the Septa for not curing Sansa of her illusions of what awaited her in King's Landing.

Calling Arya "Horseface" was unkind, but it's hardly the same as the ritual bullying that some kids are subjected to from their peers. Septa Mordane's failure as an authority figure is more worrying, since she's the one who could have led by example in her response to Arya's failures. And I don't blame the Septa for not curing Sansa of her illusions; I blame her for presenting those illusions as natural and preferable, and missing valuable moments to impart some hard truths to Sansa instead of just shutting down the girl's questions. This is highlighted in the scene where LF tells her life is not a song when Sansa felt her father should have sent Ser Loras to arrest Gregor in place of Beric Dondarrion.

[Maia]

And I don't think it's the Septa's job to ween her off that illusion she had of life as a noblewoman. That would fall on Ned and Cat. And I don't think they envisioned events unfolding as they did. They probably figured in due time Sansa would come to the realization and then they could explain to her how things really are in Westeros.

I really feel that Ned's major failure as a parent was in not preparing both his girls for the differences of life at court and generally in a situation where he himself wasn't the highest authority. Cat had her breakdown, but what was Ned's excuse?

He knew that he was taking girls into a dangerous situation and that a person that would normally be entrusted with their worldly education in such circumstances - namely Cersei, was an enemy.

People like to see Arya's defense of Mycah as adorable, yet if Arya had been more sensible, then he wouldn't have been murdered. And it happened because she didn't understand how the rules had changed and Ned, who did, didn't tell her.

Not to mention, that I find the idea of taking children along, when Ned thought that he might have to move against the Lannisters and accuse them of murder fairly incomprehensible, to be honest.

Re: probably good, competent septas - how about the one who was teaching Tommen and Myrcella? They both seemed like fairly happy, well-adjusted kids, comfortable in their roles.

[brashcandy]

I really feel that Ned's major failure as a parent was in not preparing both his girls for the differences of life at court and generally in a situation where he himself wasn't the highest authority. Cat had her breakdown, but what was Ned's excuse?

He knew that he was taking girls into a dangerous situation and that a person that would normally be entrusted with their worldly education in such circumstances - namely Cersei, was an enemy.

People like to see Arya's defense of Mycah as adorable, yet if Arya had been more sensible, then he wouldn't have been murdered. And it happened because she didn't understand how the rules had changed and Ned, who did, didn't tell her.

Not to mention, that I find the idea of taking children along, when Ned thought that he might have to move against the Lannisters and accuse them of murder fairly incomprehensible, to be honest.

Re: probably good, competent septas - how about the one who was teaching Tommen and Myrcella? They both seemed like fairly happy, well-adjusted kids, comfortable in their roles.

I agree with all of this, but just wanted to add that I think Ned had his fair bit of illusions too, especially with regard to his friendship with Robert, and what it would take to survive in this new environment. He clings to honour, just as Sansa clung to her vision of true knights, and both undergo a brutal awakening.

[The Fallen]

You will find very little in the text to support that Sansa was generally awful to Arya. The clashes they have were during the Kingsroad debacle and in Kings Landing. I think you'll find there is no evidence of Sansa bullying Arya at all. Jeyne admits to making up the names, not Sansa. And you know what? Again, the Septa as their teacher should have laid the smackdown on Jeyne, yet did not. Instead she indirectly encouraged the nicknaming by saying things like Arya having the hands of a blacksmith.

We do get a small sample of Sansa and Arya spending time together. But if we're to judge by that limited sample, we have to assume that their behavior was fairly normal as opposed to it having having been an exception. You also kind of get a sense, or at least I did, from how Sansa and Jeyne act that there's a lot of whispering that goes on between those two about Arya. Which, if we're honest, is fairly normal behavior for kids that age. Also, I didn't mean to suggest that Sansa bullied Arya. If anything, it would be the other way around. I was simply using the term, along with teasing, as an example of how snickering and chuckling from our peers is more hurtful than a critique from a teacher.

Calling Arya "Horseface" was unkind, but it's hardly the same as the ritual bullying that some kids are subjected to from their peers. Septa Mordane's failure as an authority figure is more worrying, since she's the one who could have led by example in her response to Arya's failures. And I don't blame the Septa for not curing Sansa of her illusions; I blame her for presenting those illusions as natural and preferable, and missing valuable moments to impart some hard truths to Sansa instead of just shutting down the girl's questions. This is highlighted in the scene where LF tells her life is not a song when Sansa felt her father should have sent Ser Loras to arrest Gregor in place of Beric Dondarrion.

As I mentioned in the above post, I didn't mean to suggest Sansa was a bully, just that bullying pretty tough on a kid. More so than criticism from a teacher. Again, we may disagree on this point, but I don't believe, nor is there evidence to suggest, that the Septa presented those illusions as natural or preferable. Especially since Arya also was taught by Septa Mordane and she never views the world in the same way. In my eyes the Septa is there to teach her how to be a 'lady', not this particular kind of 'lady' or that particular kind of 'lady'. But simply a 'lady'. Could she have been more of a mother figure and decided that Sansa's 'reality' wasn't real at all. That would've been kind of her, but it's a lot to ask of someone fully entrenched in the institution of chivalry and courteous behavior. That is why she reprimands Sansa when she realizes that LF overheard. I still place that responsibility on Ned and Cat.

I really feel that Ned's major failure as a parent was in not preparing both his girls for the differences of life at court and generally in a situation where he himself wasn't the highest authority. Cat had her breakdown, but what was Ned's excuse?

He knew that he was taking girls into a dangerous situation and that a person that would normally be entrusted with their worldly education in such circumstances - namely Cersei, was an enemy.

I guess I'm making an excuse for Ned when I say that he may have been waiting for an opportunity to have that talk, when things took a turn for the worse. Maybe he was waiting for the girls to approach him about an experience they'd had whereby he would be able to use it to teach them about the realities of life outside of Winterfell. Or maybe they, Ned and Cat, were waiting for the girls to be a little older to have that talk. It seems that Arya got more of those lessons from Ned, simply because she was more apt to get into mischief. They clearly knew about Sansa's vision of what life was like. I guess they didn't want to burst her bubble at such a young age.

People like to see Arya's defense of Mycah as adorable, yet if Arya had been more sensible, then he wouldn't have been murdered. And it happened because she didn't understand how the rules had changed and Ned, who did, didn't tell her.

Not to mention, that I find the idea of taking children along, when Ned thought that he might have to move against the Lannisters and accuse them of murder fairly incomprehensible, to be honest.

I agree with you on this point. Cat was pretty much out of it at this point. It's an understandable reaction, to a certain point, to Bran's physical state. But when Robb has to remind you that you have other children that also need their mother, that's pretty bad.

Re: probably good, competent septas - how about the one who was teaching Tommen and Myrcella? They both seemed like fairly happy, well-adjusted kids, comfortable in their roles.

Tommen and Myrcella both seem like normal kids. I'm sure they were taught the same things that the Stark kids were taught. What we don't know is how Robert and Cersei supplemented their education.

[dark sister]

The good Septa's teaching methods do not get enough attention around here. In the light of how Dany fails at ruling due to lack of advisers and teachers, it's only fair to take a closer look at the Stark daughters' teacher.

First the good stuff: she teaches Sansa about the courtesey armour and is clearly pretty adept at teaching heraldry too.

But...the Septa manages to sell a rather crooked world view to Sansa, and seems to think it's totally ok to believe everything is like the songs and that southern chivalry is the end all and be all which seems fairly arbitrary in a North that has very few knights and which holds to a different religion. She also seems to have had a lot of influence on Sansa's take on the role of a lady, in that the septa has drilled her in being "proper" and not think for herself (the Septa is aghast when Sansa questions Ned's decision in front of Petyr Baelish).

She is also really, really mean to Arya, claims she has the hands of a blacksmith and completely ignores that she's left handed. Further, she also does what I think is her possibly worst crime: she clearly favours Sansa over Arya to the degree that Arya's self confidence is getting a severe dent in it. The Septa also seems to add to the sibling rivalvy between Arya and Sansa in a way no teacher should.

To what degree do you think the Septa is responsible for Sansa's not questioning things in AGOT? And what is her responsibility for poor Arya's dented self confidence? Perhaps even more interestingly, should the Septa take some of the blame for Sansa's and Arya's sibling rivalry?

Your first point of Septa Mordane teaching Sansa courtesy is good, but she fails even in this! She doesn't teach ARYA any courtesy. Also, let's face it: high lords often prefer honesty and good advice over mouthing empty courtesies. Take the Arya/Sansa/Joffrey incident on the Trident. Robert told her to "tell it all, and tell it true. It is a great crime to lie before the king." Arya fearlessly tells the truth. Meanwhile, Joffrey lies -- and note that he can act the gallant when he wants to [a variation on Sansa's never-failing courtesy] -- while Sansa lies and says that she doesn't remember. I never failed to note that septa brought in Sansa to that famous "trial", and who knows what she might have been whispering in her ear? Such as "you had best not say what really happened, we don't want to anger the queen or break your betrothal or lose Joffrey". I truly wouldn't put it past her. This whole "courtesy as armor" CAN be useful to manipulate, but it also works both ways -- when a lady is so armored in her courtesy, no man, ruler, etc. really takes her seriously. We see this all the time throughout Sansa's journey.

And like you said about questioning situations: it's different when Sansa questions Ned's decision. Here, the septa is trying to make Sansa obey her father (in her own warped way). But when Sansa asks about where Gregor's head will be spiked, the septa is even more aghast. In this instance, Sansa is trying to see what occurs in the real world, and once again, Mordane is trying to keep her from even thinking of the matter. She is a STARK of WINTERFELL -- her brother Bran saw a beheading. Talking about a spiked head, and Sansa bringing it up herself for that matter, is less than par for the course for a family as hardy as they are.

I very much agree that there should not be so much talk of knights and songs for Sansa. When the septa (or the parents) sensed this weakness in her, they should have tried to explain, like Littlefinger, that the world is not like that. For a family whose words are "Winter is coming", they let her dream her summer dreams for far too long. I believe that this is because Ned simply wanted his children to have a golden childhood, but let's face it -- he taught the boys more than he taught the girls. So part of the fault lies with him, for not investigating this septa more and observing how she teaches his children, especially Arya.

Moving on to Arya: it seems that every word out of the septa's mouth is an insult to the child, and whether or not Ned is aware of this, he might be compensating by enjoying her little gestures -- the flowers at Moat Cailin, her easy friendships with commoners, his assent for the keeping of Needle, etc. etc. One point which I disagree, though, is that there is a "severe" dent in Arya's self-confidence. I think there is a small dent, mostly from Jeyne Poole calling her Arya Horseface. Personally, I believe that once Ned told her that she looks like a young Lyanna, she took her father's words as more truthful than Jeyne's. However, when he died, she was lost, with no one else to encourage her, and she survived on strength of will alone (as well as genius intelligence and cunning, of course). But, in the beginning, when Myrcella was doing needlework with the rest of the girls, it was borderline abusive what Mordane said -- in front of the "princess", no less. Unbelievably horrid and wicked. I also believe that when Arya disappeared while following the hidden tunnels under the Red Keep, the septa was praying not out of fear for Arya, but out of fear for her own pockmarked ass! Since the child is her responsibility, she would have been ripped to pieces (theoretically) for losing Ned's favorite daughter. (Off-topic: I use the word "favorite" casually. I'm sure he loved both girls equally, but clearly, he favored Arya's personality more than Sansa's.)

All in all, I think Septa Mordane has a great deal to answer for in the treatment of the two girls. If Jeyne Poole started the AH taunt, Mordane simply widened the rift by praising Sansa's every action and spraying vitriol at Arya every chance she got.

Oh, and let us not forget, the night of the tourney, Sansa's chaperone and protector got so drunk she fell into her plate snoring. Imagine someone else of the Faith, or Ned, or Catelyn, seeing her in such a position! Ned would have been furious to know that Sansa was escorted home by the Hound, who, at the end of their little walk, threatened to kill her.

It was also highly inappropriate that she sniffed at the northern riders of the tourney -- men of the girls' own household!! -- and influenced Sansa to like the men who had fancy armor. Truly, truly superficial.

I have no idea how such a wretched septa ended up in the North with one of the Great Houses. It would have been much better if Septa Lemore instructed the two girls. She knows the ways of the world and, childbirth or no, had a much lighter, cheerful personality, while still being able to protect and teach the girls.

P.S. As for being left-handed, I doubt she even noticed. All she noticed was how much "prettier" than Arya Sansa was. What if she was a lesbian? That might explain a lot of her behavior.

[dark sister]

Is Aegon the only male child we see learning from a Septa? I was trying to think of another and I couldn't think of one.

Well, in AGOT, we see a septa "as big as draft horse" hovering over Myrcella and Tommen. We don't know what she was doing with them -- perhaps they were on their way to or from a lesson, since there were two Lannister guardsmen with them as well. I think it's fairly common practice for highborn children to learn "school subjects" from a maester [professor], and religion from a septa [nun]

[Daena the Defiant]

How is encouraging a pupil at getting better at what you are teaching them "encouraging a quality that is destined to make them fail"?

Note, I am not saying that - people seem to be saying that Septa Mordane would be a better teacher if she taught Arya (and Septa Rhoelle taught Brienne) that they were special and unique and they just need that little shine of encouragement and then their socially unacceptable personality quirks would just evaporate and then they'd become better students and model citizens and dashing proto-feminists or whatever. That's hooey.

You seem hell bent on missing the point: nobody here is advocating the Septa teach Sansa and Arya swordplay. Nobody.

Well, duh. Obviously.

You have hung your whole thesis that Septa Mordane is a deplorable horrendous teacher on the internal monologue of a moody, disobedient, stubborn nine-year old girl who very quickly becomes murderously violent. I am not having a debate with anyone that Septa Mordane should or should not have been a martial arts instructor and honestly, I am utterly baffled that you take that to be my point.

Since we seem to be having trouble understanding each other:

It seems to me that you have decided to develop a large theory that because Arya failed at her lessons, lessons that she hated anyway, and felt self conscious about being the only girl in that little class who hated courtesy lessons and sewing lessons and would rather be playing in muddy ditches and fencing with the boys, and that since she was inferior in Septa Mordane's programme to her sister, Septa Mordane simply must rule her little schoolroom based upon intentional infliction of shame and a malicious use of sibling rivalry.

That's hooey.

My point is that Arya is obviously a problem child when it comes to making her do things she doesn't want to do. You seem to think that it would be Septa Mordane's job to bask her in sunshine and rainbows and reflect the warmth of her own special uniqueness back at her to make her sit still, do her homework and behave in a manner that is a complement to her parents' status and position. More likely, and much less sinister, Septa Mordane seems to have just been exasperated with her and simply tried to get her to emulate her other students who do what they are supposed to. How cruel and vile.

While people here are decrying Septa Rhoelle's ...EVIL truth-telling to Brienne, the truth is that Septa Rhoelle was on staff to help turn Brienne into a woman befitting her father's rank, and that she needs to comport herself in a manner that would not cause her to be an embarrassment and pariah. People here seem to think that Septa Rhoelle should have been all sugar-cookies and lollipops and help Brienne find the true path to her own specialness, making her feel cherished for defying custom and embarrassing her father and then she would find the path to social acceptance. Having Septa Rhoelle condone Brienne's masculine inclinations or even encourage them would probably get her dismissed and would actually only be setting Brienne for future stigma and scorn. Yet she is being given grief for not doing more to make Brienne feel ladylike and graceful when Brienne obviously rejected that social model.

Someone upthread thought that the better way for those women, who are after all, devout churchwomen, would be, despite the fact both girls seem hellbent on acting out, would be to blame everyone else. That's also hogwash.

edit: that last sentence was needlessly wordy.