R+L=J v.29

[Ygrain]

I remember that as well. I also remember the howls of fury that erupted when the finale aired and so many of the mysteries were left unanswered. So much so that they had to film a webseries after the fact to answer them. Lost is a prime example of what NOT to do when you layer mystery after mystery after mystery in your story, because if you have no idea where those mysteries are going, then it's going to show bigtime when you get to the end of the story, and you're going to piss off all your fans who thought you actually knew what you were doing only to be proven shockingly wrong.

Agreed. And, if you take it the other way round, a big reveal at the end of the story had better be properly introduced, or you achieve a Mass Effect 3 effect :-)

[Dragonfish]

This post from rmholt sort of fell by the wayside, but I think it merits a response (thanks to SFDanny for helping me articulate just what that response should be).

The Kingsguard arguing back and forth.

Someone sent me a link to instruct me on the composition of the Others; swords.

It also contained something definitive about the T o J and the KG presence there, if I am interpreting correctly, if Rhaegar ordered 3 of the KG to the T o J he didnt have to have any specific reason. He could send them to guard Lyanna, to guard Jon the bastard, to guard Jon the heir, or to eat rocks and stare at the sun. He would have given the orders to protect Viserys and Rhaella - clearly he didnt. Perhaps he felt Willem Darry could handle it (which he did).

This clip resolves a lot of the back and forth regarding where the KG was and when and why. The key is, the king gives them their orders. If they do anything besides protecting the king, it is strictly on his orders

http://web.archive.o...s3/00103009.htm

This quote from George isn't new. It's been brought up plenty of times before, and has been addressed each time it has been brought up. Here is the full quote, for context:

"Shaw: Can you explain why the King's Guard chose to stand and fight Ned at the Tower of the Joy instead of protecting the remaining royal family members?

Martin: The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders. They serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that. They can't say, 'No we don't like that order, we'll do something else.'"

I can see why you'd think that this quote definitively puts to rest the debate over the Kingsguard's reasons for staying at the tower, but it really doesn't do anything of the sort. All Martin does here is state why the Kingsguard were at the tower: they were following Rhaegar's orders. What he does not do is address the question of whether or not such a decision may have conflicted with their duty to protect the king. The issue of just who precisely was king at the moment is never brought up, either by the interviewer or Martin himself. At no point does he state that the Kingsguard would continue to follow Rhaegar's orders even if the current king was in danger and without Kingsguard protection. Indeed, if the heir was actually in that tower, then there is actually no need for him to address this issue at all, since there would be no contradiction between following Rhaegar's orders and protecting the king in that case. So while Martin's response, while undoubtedly truthful, still doesn't put to the bed this whole debate over whether or not there was an heir in that tower.

[rmholt]

This post from rmholt sort of fell by the wayside, but I think it merits a response (thanks to SFDanny for helping me articulate just what that response should be).

This quote from George isn't new. It's been brought up plenty of times before, and has been addressed each time it has been brought up. Here is the full quote, for context:

"Shaw: Can you explain why the King's Guard chose to stand and fight Ned at the Tower of the Joy instead of protecting the remaining royal family members?

Martin: The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders. They serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that. They can't say, 'No we don't like that order, we'll do something else.'"

I can see why you'd think that this quote definitively puts to rest the debate over the Kingsguard's reasons for staying at the tower, but it really doesn't do anything of the sort. All Martin does here is state why the Kingsguard were at the tower: they were following Rhaegar's orders. What he does not do is address the question of whether or not such a decision may have conflicted with their duty to protect the king. The issue of just who precisely was king at the moment is never brought up, either by the interviewer or Martin himself. At no point does he state that the Kingsguard would continue to follow Rhaegar's orders even if the current king was in danger and without Kingsguard protection. Indeed, if the heir was actually in that tower, then there is actually no need for him to address this issue at all, since there would be no contradiction between following Rhaegar's orders and protecting the king in that case. So while Martin's response, while undoubtedly truthful, still doesn't put to the bed this whole debate over whether or not there was an heir in that tower.

Gerrold was at KL with Jaime. Now, did Jaime kill Aerys after Gerrold left? Also, Rhaegar was protected by 3 KG at the Trident. By your logic, that means Aerys commanded them to do so if he was still alive. If the KG considered Rhaegar the king, all makes sense.If they thought Aerys was, none of it makes sense, since Aerys was paranoid about Rhaegar. I guess I am not completely clear about how things happened after the Harranhal tourney. I might have to buckle down and research this. It wouldnt be the first time the KG took matters of the succession in their own hands but last time it ended in the Dance with Dragons...oh.

[Dragonfish]

Gerrold was at KL with Jaime. Now, did Jaime kill Aerys after Gerrold left?

Yes. Jaime was the only Kingsguard in King's Landing when he killed Aerys. But I'm not sure what this has to do with the present question.

Also, Rhaegar was protected by 3 KG at the Trident. By your logic, that means Aerys commanded them to do so if he was still alive.

If the KG considered Rhaegar the king, all makes sense.If they thought Aerys was, none of it makes sense, since Aerys was paranoid about the KG.

Are you saying that Aerys was so paranoid that he wouldn't have allowed the Kingsguard to protect Rhaegar, and therefore the only explanation for their protecting him is that they now considered him the king.? I can't say that I agree. Aerys may have suspected him before the war began, but during the war he appears to have moved away from that idea, even if only out of necessity, as evidenced by the fact that he initially wanted to Rhaegar to be his Hand after he fired Lord Merryweather. Of course, even under this scenario Rhaegar probably had to convince Aerys to allow him to take some Kingsguard with him, but that doesn't mean the Kingsguard considered Rhaegar their real king.

And in any case, none of this has anything to do with the central question, which is why the Kingsguard chose to remain at the tower when Viserys was supposed to be their new king. Even if they believed their king was Rhaegar before, that would've ended with Rhaegar's death. And with the death of Aerys and Aegon, surely their new king would ostensibly have been Viserys, yes?

[rmholt]

Yes. Jaime was the only Kingsguard in King's Landing when he killed Aerys. But I'm not sure what this has to do with the present question.

I am just trying to square the timeline for the main purpose of finding out if Aerys was dead when Rhaegar was at the trident. If so, the KG arrangement follows traditional expectations perhaps. In any case, one wonders why Aerys only had 2 KG with him, and then one. Did he send the others to Rhaegar? If so, how does this translate to Rhaegar acquiring the authority to send the other 3 KG to ToJ - if Aerys is still around that is his call.

Are you saying that Aerys was so paranoid that he wouldn't have allowed the Kingsguard to protect Rhaegar, and therefore the only explanation for their protecting him is that they now considered him the king.?

More asking, again trying to make sense of it all.

I can't say that I agree. Aerys may have suspected him before the war began, but during the war he appears to have moved away from that idea, even if only out of necessity, as evidenced by the fact that he initially wanted to Rhaegar to be his Hand after he fired Lord Merryweather. Of course, even under this scenario Rhaegar probably had to convince Aerys to allow him to take some Kingsguard with him, but that doesn't mean the Kingsguard considered Rhaegar their real king.

SOMEONE sent the 3 KG to the T o J. It likely had to be Rhaegar unless there was some other reason Aerys would send them there. Did he know about R and L? DId he delegate ordering the KG around to Rhaegar?

And in any case, none of this has anything to do with the central question, which is why the Kingsguard chose to remain at the tower when Viserys was supposed to be their new king.

Here is where I disagree. KG have no choice. I am presuming Rhaegar was in charge of the KG. In any case, they went to T o J because they were ordered to. What they believe did not matter. If Rhaegar ordered them to go to ToJ before he died, that was their mission. If he died that didnt release them - there was no legal successor - except Jon. Anyway if his orders were to go to ToJ that's what they had to do.

The queen and Viserys were put under the protection of Darry who proved able. There is no rule saying KG had to do it. I believe Rhaegar wanted his orders to be followed after his death if necessary.

Even if they believed their king was Rhaegar before, that would've ended with Rhaegar's death.

I disagree. Rhaegar made arrangements for his legal successors, his queen, Lyanna, and her baby. The KG was bound to follow the orders and apparently *Darry* did his best to protect the *KNOWN* Targs at risk.

And with the death of Aerys and Aegon, surely their new king would ostensibly have been Viserys, yes?

Doesnt matter. If Rhaegar sent the KG to the ToJ, that's where they went. If he had arranged for Darry to take care of the KNOWN remaining royalty, that would have been a good diversion from T o J plus it worked.. Perhaps he told everyone the why of the orders to make things easier

Gerrold was at KL with Jaime. Now, did Jaime kill Aerys after Gerrold left? Also, Rhaegar was protected by 3 KG at the Trident. By your logic, that means Aerys commanded them to do so if he was still alive. If the KG considered Rhaegar the king, all makes sense.If they thought Aerys was, none of it makes sense, since Aerys was paranoid about Rhaegar. I guess I am not completely clear about how things happened after the Harranhal tourney. I might have to buckle down and research this. It wouldnt be the first time the KG took matters of the succession in their own hands but last time it ended in the Dance with Dragons...oh.

Yes. Jaime was the only Kingsguard in King's Landing when he killed Aerys. But I'm not sure what this has to do with the present question.

Are you saying that Aerys was so paranoid that he wouldn't have allowed the Kingsguard to protect Rhaegar, and therefore the only explanation for their protecting him is that they now considered him the king.?

No, I just dont know when Aerys died relative to the Trident. They wouldnt have gone to protect Rhaegar unless Aerys ordered them to or if Aerys were dead.

I can't say that I agree. Aerys may have suspected him before the war began, but during the war he appears to have moved away from that idea, even if only out of necessity, as evidenced by the fact that he initially wanted to Rhaegar to be his Hand after he fired Lord Merryweather. Of course, even under this scenario Rhaegar probably had to convince Aerys to allow him to take some Kingsguard with him, but that doesn't mean the Kingsguard considered Rhaegar their real king.

Agree.

And in any case, none of this has anything to do with the central question, which is why the Kingsguard chose to remain at the tower when Viserys was supposed to be their new king.

That's it. It wasnt their choice. They were acting on orders which would have survived Rhaegar if the legal heir were not installed. If Rhaegar sent them to T o J and arranged for Viserys and his mother another way, no problem.

Even if they believed their king was Rhaegar before, that would've ended with Rhaegar's death. And with the death of Aerys and Aegon, surely their new king would ostensibly have been Viserys, yes?

Perhaps Rhaegar acted out ot necessity, sending the KG where they were most needed and assigning Darry for getting Visaerys to safety. No one else knew about Lyanna so they didnt have to run. OTOH she did need protection, perhaps, bc of Ned.

[FrozenFire3]

Well, I agree with you entirely -- we love Kit in our house, so there are definitely Kit fans lurking about on this thread. I think he's splendid as Jon, actually -- I think Kit has a beautiful face (chubby?? goodness, he was skinny as a twig in the scene in which the three young lads had their shirts off in season one). His eyes are very expressive, and as you point out, he is able to convey that sensitive, melancholy quality that no doubt comes from his (Jon's) father -- his Targaryen father that is!

Ehm... have you read my entire post? :) When I said Kit was "chubby", I was talking about his face... never said he was fat (in fact he isn't). What I meant was he isn't mature yet if you know what I mean, not yet a man grown. I also said he was nothing like the Jon I had imagined but that I would change him for no one in the world. Kit all the way :wub: This is what I had written afterwards:

But I agree with you, Kit managed to overcome the not-so-exceptional writing and portray a melanchonic-like Jon (just like his father). There's something in his eyes, a frailty... just like in that scene you were mentioning which is the one I chose for my avatar :D In that moment I could really see Rhaegar in his eyes for some reason. "My sweet, silver prince...!" Hahah

[Dr. Pepper]

I am just trying to square the timeline for the main purpose of finding out if Aerys was dead when Rhaegar was at the trident. If so, the KG arrangement follows traditional expectations perhaps. In any case, one wonders why Aerys only had 2 KG with him, and then one. Did he send the others to Rhaegar? If so, how does this translate to Rhaegar acquiring the authority to send the other 3 KG to ToJ - if Aerys is still around that is his call.

I don't know why you continue to have confusion about the KG. It's really pretty straightfoward. Aerys is King. He has authority over the KG. This means that he can assign the KG to guard certain members of his family. When the KG is assigned to guard someone, they are then to follow the orders of the person they are guarding so long as those orders do not go against orders given by the king. Take Jaime for example. When Robert was king, Jaime was tasked with guarding Cersei. He is to follow her orders. If Cersei tells him to go to the Riverlands to meet Tywin, then he'll go to the Riverlands to meet Tywin so long as Robert has not forbidden him from doing so. So if Aerys tells the KG to go find Rhaegar and follow his orders, they will go find Rhaegar and follow his orders.

Obviously Rhaegar died before Aerys. Two other KG died with Rhaegar at the Trident - Ser Darry and Ser Martell. Ser Selmy was injured and he eventually bent the knee to Robert (presumably after Aerys died, but this is uknown). Aerys died after the Trident. We know this because the Lannisters didn't come until after it was clear who would win. The Trident made it clear. Lannisters sack King's landing, Jaime killed Aerys and then bent the knee to Robert. That means there are three KG left - Hightower, Whent and Dayne. They were tasked with following Rhaegar's commands and presumably his command was to guard Lyanna and unborn child.

There is no mystery here, at least none that has yet been foreshadowed. The primary duty of the KG is to guard the king, but their other duties are to guard members of the family the king commands them to guard and when they are guarding that person, they are to follow their commands unless it interferes with some other command of the king. Obviously there are KG who do not perform their jobs as they are supposed to...Jaime, Selmy, Cole, Oakheart, Blount, etc. These are the exceptions, not the norm.

[Ygrain]

I am just trying to square the timeline for the main purpose of finding out if Aerys was dead when Rhaegar was at the trident. If so, the KG arrangement follows traditional expectations perhaps. In any case, one wonders why Aerys only had 2 KG with him, and then one. Did he send the others to Rhaegar? If so, how does this translate to Rhaegar acquiring the authority to send the other 3 KG to ToJ - if Aerys is still around that is his call.

More asking, again trying to make sense of it all.

SOMEONE sent the 3 KG to the T o J. It likely had to be Rhaegar unless there was some other reason Aerys would send them there. Did he know about R and L? DId he delegate ordering the KG around to Rhaegar?

Here is where I disagree. KG have no choice. I am presuming Rhaegar was in charge of the KG. In any case, they went to T o J because they were ordered to. What they believe did not matter. If Rhaegar ordered them to go to ToJ before he died, that was their mission. If he died that didnt release them - there was no legal successor - except Jon. Anyway if his orders were to go to ToJ that's what they had to do.

The queen and Viserys were put under the protection of Darry who proved able. There is no rule saying KG had to do it. I believe Rhaegar wanted his orders to be followed after his death if necessary.

I disagree. Rhaegar made arrangements for his legal successors, his queen, Lyanna, and her baby. The KG was bound to follow the orders and apparently *Darry* did his best to protect the *KNOWN* Targs at risk.

Doesnt matter. If Rhaegar sent the KG to the ToJ, that's where they went. If he had arranged for Darry to take care of the KNOWN remaining royalty, that would have been a good diversion from T o J plus it worked.. Perhaps he told everyone the why of the orders to make things easier

No, I just dont know when Aerys died relative to the Trident. They wouldnt have gone to protect Rhaegar unless Aerys ordered them to or if Aerys were dead.

Agree.

That's it. It wasnt their choice. They were acting on orders which would have survived Rhaegar if the legal heir were not installed. If Rhaegar sent them to T o J and arranged for Viserys and his mother another way, no problem.

Perhaps Rhaegar acted out ot necessity, sending the KG where they were most needed and assigning Darry for getting Visaerys to safety. No one else knew about Lyanna so they didnt have to run. OTOH she did need protection, perhaps, bc of Ned.

Not sure I'm getting your point correctly, but here's my take:

Most probably, Dayne was with Rhaegar from the very beginning as Rhaegar's assigned personal bodyguard. Given the location of ToJ, he may have helped with arranging this love nest for Rhaegar, and he never left ToJ afterwards.

Meanwhile, in KL, Brandon wins his Darwin award and Aerys starts enquiring about Rhaegar's whereabouts but no-one is able or willing to provide an answer. IMHO, none of the remaining KG knew, since they would be honour-bound to give the information, provided that Aerys gave a direct order. There is a slight chance that some of them (e.g. Whent, if he was still there) knew or suspected, but since Aerys never expressed the question towards them, they chose to follow the word rather than idea and remain silent, but since this leads into a very grey area on the verge of breaking their vows, I believe they did not know.

The Rebellion starts and for some time, seems little more than an annoyance, until things start look bad for the Targaryens and it is vital that Rhaegar is found, to become the Commander of the army, and Hightower (plus or minus Whent, depending on whether he was at KL or at ToJ), is sent to fetch Rhaegar, whatever it takes.

Now, this is where a gap comes: we do not know how Hightower found ToJ. IMHO, Rhaegar himself tipped him off, since we know, from Ned's encounter at ToJ, that they had means of keeping in touch with the events at KL, and Rhaegar could see that he was really needed. He leaves for KL, while the three KG stay at ToJ to guard Lyanna.

Rhaegar returns to KL and sets out for Trident where he perishes, together with Martell and Darry, while Selmy is gravely wounded. The news of the defeat reach KL, together with the reports of the Rebel army and Tywin's army marching for KL. Tywin arrives the first, Jaime kills Aerys, Clegane and Lorch murder Elia and her children. At THIS VERY MOMENT, succession automatically passes to Viserys.

The problem of succession:

Whatever Rhaegar may think of PTWP, he cannot skip Aegon in the succession line. Therefore, up till the moment when the KG learn of Aegon's death, they cannot use the justification of protecting the king for their stay at ToJ and they must be acting on someone's orders.

Now, whose orders?

The primary purpose of the KG is to protect the king. Their protection may be extended to other member of the royal family unless it clashes with their primary purpose.

The primary loyatly of the KG is with the king. They may obey the orders of other royal family member, unless they clash with theor primary loyalty, i.e. the king's orders.

- Basically, the KG follow a typical chain of command. In the absence of direct orders from Aerys, they follow orders from Rhaegar,but since Rhaegar is only second-in-command, orders from the king or protection of the king always take precedence, and the protection of the king is considered sufficient as long as at least one KG is with him.

Therefore, I assume that Aerys never commanded the KG to stay at ToJ; it would be sufficient if he didn't issue an order that they must return with Rhaegar, in which case, Rhaegar would be perfectly entitled to order them to stay behind. He is a Crown Prince, not king, therefore it is not required that one of them must stay with him. - There could be other scenarios, e.g. Aerys ordering to bring Rhaegar at any cost, in which case the cost would be Hightower staying at ToJ and guarding Lyanna, and since Rhaegar's return to KL would have higher priority than Hightowers, he might actually stay at ToJ even against Aerys' order.

[LittleDragon8]

I think Arya will figure prominently in destroying Cersei.

Since I think she'll actually be more beautiful than Sansa, she may be the younger, more beautiful Queen Maggie the Frog warned Cersei about, (and yes, I think Martin would do this to poor Arya, just because she thought that stuff was for "other" girls).

It would impact Cersei more. She knows Sansa, she knows Margery, and doesn't think they are more beautiful than her. I think Dany will go mad, so she won't be a factor, so Arya could end up with Aegon, if he's real, (I personally think he's a Blackfyre), because he would need the North, and Jon being Lyannas son doesn't neccessarily guarentee the North.

OR

The naming of the Direwolves are signifigant, and Aryas direwolf is named for Nymeria, the warrior Queen, another Poster theorized that perhaps it takes another direwolf to mount/mate with Nymeria.

:angry2:

Not to derail the thread, but I always thought it was telling that show-Arya named Visenya as her other idol. We could interpret this as foreshadowing, perhaps Arya will end up as the future queen.

Honestly I quite like the idea.

/topic hijack

[Sterling]

Hey can someone respond to this with the condensed reasoning behind why this theory is so widely accepted as fact? I don't really have time to read through all of the thread but I like the idea and I want to be able to believe that it will be made known in the final books. Basically just a wrap up of the evidence behind R+L=J through the books; I don't think all this about studying the graphic novels to find out who looks like who and who has this House's physical features, etc.. is a very valid point when arguing about what will happen in the books, seeing as the character's depictions in the graphic novels are just interpretations of what the artists see in the books.. right?

[Alia of the knife]

Not to derail the thread, but I always thought it was telling that show-Arya named Visenya as her other idol. We could interpret this as foreshadowing, perhaps Arya will end up as the future queen.

Honestly I quite like the idea.

/topic hijack

Not to derail the thread, but I always thought it was telling that show-Arya named Visenya as her other idol. We could interpret this as foreshadowing, perhaps Arya will end up as the future queen.

Honestly I quite like the idea.

/topic hijack

I agree.

And in Martins world, you make plans, and he just laughs.

Sansa, brought up on Caitlyns tales, wanted to be a Princess, I'd say she doesn't now.

Probably the last thing Jon would ever want is to leave the Wall, but he will to become something else.

Arya doesn't want to be anything like a Princess, or Queen, but poor girl most likely will, spitting out orders, sounding like the Queen of Thorns when she's old, aggravated by her children. :)

[Lady Octarina]

Hey can someone respond to this with the condensed reasoning behind why this theory is so widely accepted as fact? I don't really have time to read through all of the thread but I like the idea and I want to be able to believe that it will be made known in the final books. Basically just a wrap up of the evidence behind R+L=J through the books; I don't think all this about studying the graphic novels to find out who looks like who and who has this House's physical features, etc.. is a very valid point when arguing about what will happen in the books, seeing as the character's depictions in the graphic novels are just interpretations of what the artists see in the books.. right?

I recommend you read this article that goes through all the major theories on who Jon Snow's parents are.

The discussion about how he looks in the graphic novel was not aimed to use that as the ultimate proof of R+L=J, just to explore how the artists put a few clues here and there on the subject without making it too obvious. Also, it seems Martin had a say in how the characters were drawn, so...

[Sterling]

I recommend you read this article that goes through all the major theories on who Jon Snow's parents are.

The discussion about how he looks in the graphic novel was not aimed to use that as the ultimate proof of R+L=J, just to explore how the artists put a few clues here and there on the subject without making it too obvious. Also, it seems Martin had a say in how the characters were drawn, so...

Just read it. That's definitely convincing; I had forgotten about all of the stuff in GoT where he's talking/thinking about Lyanna and his promise to her. This could definitely be a really cool twist.

[King Doug]

<snip>

Dr. Peper and Ygrain gave you really good answers about the duties and chain of command of the Kingsguard.

But I though I'd elaborate on the locations of Aerys' KG during the rebellion.

I think Ygrain is correct about Hightower, Whent, and Dayne. They were already with Rhaegar and out of contact with Aerys. The other four; Jaime, Selmy, Darry, and Martell were all in King's Landing until the Battle of the Bells.

Rhaegar had returned to KL to lead the new army that was raised (I'm not sure exactly when he returned during the timeline but I think I'm pretty close)

Jon Connington lost the Battle of the Bells thanks to Ned Stark, Hoster Tully, and Jon Arryn.

Connington returns to KL, defeated and is stripped of office/land/titles and goes into exile.

Selmy and Darry are commanded by Aerys to regroup the scattered remains of Connington's army. Then meet with Rhaegar at the Trident. While at the same time, Martell is commanded to lead the army of 10,000 Dornishmen that were assembled because Elia was being held hostage in KL to ensure Dorne's loyalty. Martell also to meet Rhaegar at the Trident.

Those armies all converged and assembled at the Trident under the command of Rhaegar to meet Baratheon/Stark/Arryn/Tully. There, Darry and Martell were slain. And Selmy was injured to the point he was sidelined the rest of the war.

At that point, Jaime was still at the King's side in KL and Hightower/Whent/Dayne were all at ToJ by the command of Rhaegar (presumably).

Ygrain and/or Dr. Pepper did a good job explaining what happens when Rhaegar dies and what happens to his orders. I think that Rhaegar and Aerys died within a matter of days. Therefore, the 3 KG at the ToJ probably found out the Battle of the Trident and the Sack of KL at the same time. So they heard that the King (Aerys), Crown Prince (Rhaegar), and Heir (Aegon) had all died. Therefore them staying at the ToJ meant they were fulfilling their duty by protecting their new king, the newly born Jon Snow.

[Dragonfish]

Here is where I disagree. KG have no choice. I am presuming Rhaegar was in charge of the KG. In any case, they went to T o J because they were ordered to. What they believe did not matter. If Rhaegar ordered them to go to ToJ before he died, that was their mission. If he died that didnt release them - there was no legal successor - except Jon. Anyway if his orders were to go to ToJ that's what they had to do.

I agree that they would have been bound to follow Rhaegar's orders before his death, but I disagree that they would have been bound to follow them even after his death. If their new king was in danger and without Kingsguard protection, then it is their duty to try to get to him and protect him. And I don't see where you get that there was no legal successor; Viserys was, ostensibly, the heir to the Targaryen dynasty, so they would have been bound to go to him.

The queen and Viserys were put under the protection of Darry who proved able. There is no rule saying KG had to do it.

If Viserys was the king, then yes, there is a rule that says they have to do it. Protecting the king is their first duty, and at least one Kingsguard member must be with the king, except when all the Kingsguard must convene for a short period.

I believe Rhaegar wanted his orders to be followed after his death if necessary.

Doesn't matter what Rhaegar wants. There are limits to what he can order the Kingsguard to do. He can't order them to kill Aerys, for instance, because that would conflict with their primary oath to protect the king. So even if he did want them to stay at the tower even after his death, the Kingsguard would not be bound to follow that wish if it interfered with their primary oath.

I disagree. Rhaegar made arrangements for his legal successors, his queen, Lyanna, and her baby.

I'm confused. You think that Lyanna was his queen, and that Jon was his heir? Then you don't really seem to disagree with the conclusion that I'm arguing.

[rmholt]

I agree that they would have been bound to follow Rhaegar's orders before his death, but I disagree that they would have been bound to follow them even after his death. If their new king was in danger and without Kingsguard protection, then it is their duty to try to get to him and protect him. And I don't see where you get that there was no legal successor; Viserys was, ostensibly, the heir to the Targaryen dynasty, so they would have been bound to go to him.

Even if it was dangerous to him?

If Viserys was the king, then yes, there is a rule that says they have to do it. Protecting the king is their first duty, and at least one Kingsguard member must be with the king, except when all the Kingsguard must convene for a short period.

Protecting yes. Perhaps protecting is allowing dead Rhaegar's plan to be executed - with Darry spiriting off the heir (or the guy who would be the heir if something went wrong at T o J) Nothing like a KG rushing somewhere in the middle of a rebellion to telegraph where the heir is.

Doesn't matter what Rhaegar wants. There are limits to what he can order the Kingsguard to do. He can't order them to kill Aerys, for instance, because that would conflict with their primary oath to protect the king. So even if he did want them to stay at the tower even after his death, the Kingsguard would not be bound to follow that wish if it interfered with their primary oath.

The fly in the ointment here is they are supposed to die with their King - so why arent they at the trident to begin with? If someone is sent to raise an army, then he must leave the King;s side. Things seem to be more complicated, or less complicated, than you make them.

I'm confused. You think that Lyanna was his queen, and that Jon was his heir? Then you don't really seem to disagree with the conclusion that I'm arguing.

I'm sold on R+L but I think R could have made contingency plans that allowed the KG to take care of Viserys AND Lyanna - after all he had NO idea if Lyanna was going to have a living baby and whether or not it was going to be a boy, and perhaps he was not legitimate. So the contingency was to have W Darry take care of Viserys, the next in line, and not use KG - as that would actually be safer for Viserys.

I'm also asking questions about the timeline. Also, from what GRRM said about the KG duties, there seems to be more wiggle room than people are allowing, for instance, how Viserys and Rhaella were protected. If they were protected by someone other than KG they can follow the plan even if Rhaegar dies in the middle of things. They WERE protected. It might have been a ruse to draw people's attention away from ToJ in which case the KG would be OK to go along with it. I'm saying there is no reason the apparent heir cant be protected by someone other than KG if it is part of a plan set up by Rhaegar. If he commanded them to take care of just Lyanna, forgetting Jon for the moment, I dont think they could have abandoned her at the point of Rhaegar;s death, even if Viserys WAS the heir, if he were already taken care of. In fact, KG seen on the way to Viserys might be dangerous to Viserys who was trying to be snuck out of danger. I just have issues with people giving the KG duties and vows that arent necessarily there.

Marie

[Dragonfish]

Even if it was dangerous to him?

Protecting yes. Perhaps protecting is allowing dead Rhaegar's plan to be executed - with Darry spiriting off the heir (or the guy who would be the heir if something went wrong at T o J) Nothing like a KG rushing somewhere in the middle of a rebellion to telegraph where the heir is.

What? Everyone already knew Viserys was on Dragonstone.

The fly in the ointment here is they are supposed to die with their King

Uh, no they aren't. They are supposed to defend their king until their last breath, if they can, but they don't commit ritual suicide when their king dies. Their loyalty simply transfers to the new king.

I'm sold on R+L but I think R could have made contingency plans that allowed the KG to take care of Viserys AND Lyanna - after all he had NO idea if Lyanna was going to have a living baby and whether or not it was going to be a boy, and perhaps he was not legitimate. So the contingency was to have W Darry take care of Viserys, the next in line, and not use KG - as that would actually be safer for Viserys.

Ok, but again, it doesn't matter what Rhaegar's plans were. His orders have limits, as I have pointed out before. The Kingsguard will not follow his orders if it conflicts with their primary duty to protect the king.

[Sasha Steelsong]

Nevermind. Dragonfish beat me to the article.

[SteelAndSnow]

:agree: Exactly. Everyone knows Viserys was at Dragonstone. Nobody is saying that the KG would abandon Lyanna and go to Viserys if they believed he was the king but they would have sent at least one of their number.

[Sasha Steelsong]

:agree: Exactly. Everyone knows Viserys was at Dragonstone. Nobody is saying that the KG would abandon Lyanna and go to Viserys if they believed he was the king but they would have sent at least one of their number.

Exactly. It is the fact that ALL of them stayed that is the clue. They knew their king, and his son and the son's first born were dead but they all stayed, the only way they would be keeping their vows is if the king was where they were and not on Dragonstone where the apparent king was.