Heresy 16

[Eyron]

I would vote for Val as the Moonmaid. Hasn't it already been implied that she is a priestess or otherwise has some spiritual authority? In addition, it's clear that people are willing to follow her lead. It is also clear that she has a near-irresistible appeal that male characters believe is sexual, but that could also be interpreted as the charisma of a religious leader. IMO, Val has what Mel wishes she had, the power to influence men in the service of her god.

Agreed, this was on my mind too, the idea that Val is a moon-priestess or some such is very good and I think it's probably so. The potential constellation foreshadowing would probably be that the wildlings following Val, Mance and Dalla will side with Jon in the future. We have already seen how Tormund swore to Jon, on the behalf of all those that came through the Wall so this has in part already happened.

As for Sansa: I think her future was foretold/foreshadowed by Jaime's statement in ADWD in which he hopes that she'll forget she's a Stark, marry an innkeeper or blacksmith, and have lots of children far away from centers of power. This being GRRM, who gives massive hints about future plot developments in throw-away lines, Jaime's statement cannot be ignored. Jaime's future also comports well with Sansa's wish at the end of AFFC, which is basically to be left alone. Such an ending for her will also be bittersweet. Sooooo . . .

:stunned:

My heart just stopped for a moment... Are you suggesting what I think you are suggesting?! :laugh: This is the first Jaimansa (Sansaime?) ship I've seen... I have solid proof against that happening: There is no good way to abbrevate Sansa-Jaime. That's it.

Not to mention that for Sansa to become Queen of Winter/North whatever, Rickon (and Shaggydog) will have to die. No. No, no, no, no, no. No more dead Stark children and dire wolves, thank you. (Although I have to cope with the fact that Arya wished herself dead. Bitter without the sweet there.)

She could be the protector, a regent for Rickon (or Bran actually, but yeah he might not have much to do with Winterfell anymore). But I'm not sure Rickon will get through all of this safely, he is a piece in the game now and that don't end well mostly. Same as with poor Tommen, I hope they survive but I don't see it as very likely.

In regard to whether the Northern lords at the wedding knew that the bride was a false Arya – I think they had their suspicions as shown by Whichever Umber's interrogation of Jeyne when she appeared with Theon. They could not, however, show they doubted Arya's identity in front of their new liege lord (Bolton), the insane Ramsay, and the Freys if they wanted to get out of Winterfell without a fight – or at least a fight that they didn't start. I have a theory that, in addition to Manderly, the lords at the wedding will start killing Freys and Boltons as soon as a good opportunity presents itself, in particular because there's an Umber inside and an Umber outside the walls of Winterfell. If the Umbers aren't spoiling for revenge I don't know who would be.

Yes please, I think the Umbers and quite a few of the northmen are up to something too and that the Boltons will be trapped between enemies inside and out :)

[Uncat]

Big question: We have seen a bunch of WW. Are they the real - for the lack of a better word - sidhe? Or are they changlings changed from warm human baby in to icy warriors? I. e. have we meet those we are are calling Sidhe? Or just their acquired rangers?

I know this is inviting pure speculation. But then I'm going to sleep and thoight that those of you who are wide awake now might want something to do with your day :)

[Eyron]

I agree that "a thousand years ago" could be just a figure of speach, but it has been used a lot when characters describe last time something occured or when important events happened so I'm not sure it would fly by GRRM without notice. He has a search function on his computer :)

He used it twice on the same page in the Cat chapter I quoted. Regarding different things, but perhaps he is subtly pointing towards something happening a thousand years ago. I'm not sure I believe this fully but there may be something to it.

Its all part of the core heresy and I'll address it in Professor Crow's dissertation, but essentially the feeling is that when the Andals came they didn't burn out the Children as they went, but were too busy dealing with the kingdoms to worry about the tree-huggers. Then, about 1,000 years ago something happened, or rather a whole series of inter-related events because there are scattered references all over the place to different things happening at about this time. While I agree with Sandsnake No.9 that the dating can't be regarded as accurate there is a definite consistency in placing them "at about that time".

Its very tempting to link the Night that Ended Battle, defeating the Others, with the overthrow of the Nights King and to broaden the usage of "Others" to include all the "other old races", ie; to link both with the expulsion of the Children/Singers.

That is the theory that I ineptly called "A thousand years ago-theory" and from all the references you, Elaena (I think) and others have put forth, I agree this is a plausible idea. I'm not ready to subscribe though. There are good arguments against this, such as the Valyrians being around to keep records of events, and the Andals and maesters (probably) as well, but whatever happened might not have been very relevant to them, as in it was just a continuation of previous endeavours and just looked as a regular war. But for the Children this may have been a milestone in their existance, their doom.

I thought to point the Cat quote out because I didn't remember it mentioned in this context.

[DragonSpawn]

Im not sure if bran an rickon have to die for sansa to be queen... Its possible that the dornish belief in women having equal right to inherit power actually stems from the sidhe. before the rhoynar fled across the sea their army fought against the valyrians... Theres talk of garin (?) turning to stone (valyrians were masters of stone-craft) and an icy woman with blue eyes kissing him back to life... Theres also links with singers and the greenboys (? - on phone so painful to check names! ). Its possible women simply had to inherit given the loss of men in the battle (250k?) although they integrated with the dornish who were there at the time (who wouldnt turn down 250k women moving in!?) ;) or the change was caused by garins queen having to lead in the absence of anyone else? But if it was a sidhe woman then she may have simply imposed her beliefs in the absence of a king.

[7V3N]

Tyrion could also be the shadowcat because (I didn't even think of these before :dunce: ) he is a lion (cat) of Lannister, is the black sheep of his family, and is constantly connected to having a tall/large shadow. Add in his shadowskin cloak. Could be Arya, but I am thinking Tyrion.

Also, I was reading the arrival at Craster's Keep. If I'm not mistaken, it is on a hill. Is it possible Craster is on top of a Sidhe fairy-hill?

[Eyron]

DragonSpawn, I hope the Dornish traditions will be implemented. In the north the women only inherit when there are no direct male descendants (a daughter goes before an uncle) so that is what I think is the most likely, but if those laws are changed...

I would like to see the north (and all of Westeros for that instance) accepting ruling Queens without all the younger male heirs having to die. That would be nice :)

In Dorne I'm thinking their traditions could have to do with the abundance of women, they were in large majority, and the fact that Nymeria was a warrior would have helped, as well as the possibility that this was one of her demands when allying with the Martells.

Interesting idea about the possible Other queen of Garin's and the Dornish traditions.

What if the NK and the Other Queen had a first born daughter? Suppose if in Craster tradition the sons were given back to the Others, but the daughter was going to be Queen? Makes you wonder if she in this case lived and if she married, a Stark cousin perhaps? Or a Bolton? Ah well, who knows...

[hotweaselsoup]

I agree that "a thousand years ago" could be just a figure of speach, but it has been used a lot when characters describe last time something occured or when important events happened so I'm not sure it would fly by GRRM without notice. He has a search function on his computer :)

He used it twice on the same page in the Cat chapter I quoted. Regarding different things, but perhaps he is subtly pointing towards something happening a thousand years ago. I'm not sure I believe this fully but there may be something to it.

That is the theory that I ineptly called "A thousand years ago-theory" and from all the references you, Elaena (I think) and others have put forth, I agree this is a plausible idea. I'm not ready to subscribe though. There are good arguments against this, such as the Valyrians being around to keep records of events, and the Andals and maesters (probably) as well, but whatever happened might not have been very relevant to them, as in it was just a continuation of previous endeavours and just looked as a regular war. But for the Children this may have been a milestone in their existance, their doom.

I thought to point the Cat quote out because I didn't remember it mentioned in this context.

Perhaps when the Andal King Erreg (aka Erreg the Kinslayer) cut down High Heart? I feel like this must have been a pretty big deal to the Children - quite literally like having their heart cut out.

[Eyron]

Perhaps when the Andal King Erreg (aka Erreg the Kinslayer) cut down High Heart? I feel like this must have been a pretty big deal to the Children - quite literally like having their heart cut out.

Indeed, something like that would fit very well!

The Andals rid themselves of the survailance once and for all. Except all the weirwoods we know are left in the south of course.

[Striker83]

I still think Sansa is the Moonmaiden. She will become the ruler of the Vale not of the North and help Jon in the fight against the others, so i don't think Rickon needs to die because of her.

About Mance I think he wants the horn for protection, to threaten the other lords and kings to not mess with him.

[hotweaselsoup]

Yes please, I think the Umbers and quite a few of the northmen are up to something too and that the Boltons will be trapped between enemies inside and out :)

ohpleaseohpleaseohpleaseohpleaseohplease...

[Alarum]

Tyrion being the Shadowcat would be a nice parallel to Brynden Tully's Blackfish, particularly in how both are cunning and constant outliers unfairly ostracized by their families.

Would it be possible to expand the Ygritte constellation quote a little bit? Where exactly is that from? It's not entirely connected but Osha earlier mentions the rider of the Ice Dragon having blue star eyes. Wassupwitdat?

[7V3N]

Tyrion being the Shadowcat would be a nice parallel to Brynden Tully's Blackfish, particularly in how both are cunning and constant outliers unfairly ostracized by their families.

Would it be possible to expand the Ygritte constellation quote a little bit? Where exactly is that from? It's not entirely connected but Osha earlier mentions the rider of the Ice Dragon having blue star eyes. Wassupwitdat?

I've got you. Give me a few minutes because there are quite a few references.

[Alarum]

Also, if we can ditch our preconceptions for a moment regarding the CotF's motives and perspective: could they be referring to the Giants as their brothers and banes because the Giants defected from the side of the old races to link up with humans? The only Giants we've seen have been in the company of wildlings and nowhere near the presence of Children or White Walkers.

[7V3N]

The Ice Dragon:

Bran:

The blue star in the dragon's eye pointed the way north, as Osha told him once.

Jon:

So many stars, he thought as he trudged up the slope through pines and firs and ash. Maester Luwin had taught him his stars as a boy in Winterfell; he had learned the names of the twelve houses of heaven and the rulers of each; he could find the seven wanderers sacred to the Faith; he was old friends with the Ice Dragon, the Shadowcat, the Moonmaid, and the Sword of the Morning. All those he shared with Ygritte, but some of the others. We look up at the same stars, and see such different things. The King's Crown was the Cradle, to hear her tell it; the Stallion was the Horned Lord; the red wanderer that septons preached was sacred to their Smith up here was called the Thief. And when the Thief was in the Moonmaid, that was a propitious time for a man to steal a woman, Ygritte insisted.

Davos:

A half moon was sliding in and out amongst thin high clouds, and Davos could see familiar stars. There was the Galley, sailing west; there the Crone's Lantern, four bright stars that enclosed a golden haze. The clouds hid most of the Ice Dragon, all but the bright blue eye that marked due north. The sky is full of smugglers' stars. They were old friends, those stars; Davos hoped that meant good luck.

Those are from ASOS. In ADWD, there are a lot of comparisons between the Wall and an Ice Dragon.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

:stunned:

My heart just stopped for a moment... Are you suggesting what I think you are suggesting?! :laugh: This is the first Jaimansa (Sansaime?) ship I've seen... I have solid proof against that happening: There is no good way to abbrevate Sansa-Jaime. That's it.

I must have been unclear. I mean Sansa will choose a quiet life instead of being in the middle of the game, as wished by Jaime in his ADWD chapter, not that Sansa will hook up with Jaime. I have him down as a dead man, anyway.

And speaking of dead -- I'm pretty sure that Jon will die, :bawl: because worlds and nations have little use for heroes after they save the world. I also think Arya might die because she said the words "I hope your princess (she's the princess) dies," (paraphrase). This looks like one of those throw-away statements that actually predict the future GRRM is so fond of. So that's two more Starks gone -- but not Rickon, please. Hasn't that kid suffered enough?

[Uncat]

Not to mention that for Sansa to become Queen of Winter/North whatever, Rickon (and Shaggydog) will have to die. No. No, no, no, no, no. No more dead Stark children and dire wolves, thank you. (Although I have to cope with the fact that Arya wished herself dead. Bitter without the sweet there.)

Well, Rickon would not need to die. The younger brother gets Winterfell. So there would be a place for him.

With Rickon, I am always wondering, what GRRM is going to make out of this barely controlled anger. Gut says, that it means trouble, because part of his anger is directed agains those who left him.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

Well, Rickon would not need to die. The younger brother gets Winterfell. So there would be a place for him.

With Rickon, I am always wondering, what GRRM is going to make out of this barely controlled anger. Gut says, that it means trouble, because part of his anger is directed agains those who left him.

I doubt that the series will continue long enough for us to see a grown-up Rickon,assuming he lives (please?) but I can imagine him becoming like those fearsome ancient Kings of the North, like Ice-Eyes, exactly the type of person needed to straighten some asses out.

[Uncat]

A few notes from Catelyns first chapter in AGoT:

"She [Catelyn] was of the Faith, like her father and grandfather and his father before him"

I know I brought this up before, that we don't know what the earlier Tullys religion was, but here we see it laid out. The last four generations, from Cat and going back, prayed to the Seven. We still don't really know what came before that, perhaps they also prayed to the Seven.

"In the south the weirwoods had been cut down or burned out a thousand years ago..."

BC quoted this earlier, and I just noticed this... So what really happened a thousand years ago? Sorry if you BC, or others, brought this up too before in your A thousand years ago-theory, it didn't stick with me.

I would like to point out that it is plain to read that Cat believes in the Old gods, just from reading this chapter alone, but she does not pray to them - they are not her gods. This was up for discussion earlier, but I'm not sure it was in this thread :)

"... but the red eyes seemed to follow her as she came."

"She spread her cloak on the forest floor and sat beside the pool, her back against the weirwood. She could feel the eyes watching her, but she did her best to ignore them."

"'There are darker things beyond the Wall.' She glanced behind her at the hearttree, the pale bark and red eyes, watching, listening, thinking it's long slow thoughts"

This is a thing we modern monotheists or atheists or nihilists don't understand anymore.Tthere is one good or no god and that's it. Everybody elses gods do not exist.

But back in the days, this was different. The ancients with their many gods belived the world to be full of gods. Everybody had theirs and if you e.g. conquerred some place, you would need to put up with that place's gods, too.

You could try to pacify them, by adopting them or you could conquerre them, too, by burning their temples, tearing down their statues or cutting their trees. This all went to show, that your gods were stronger. It never went to show, that their gods would not exist.

So lets take your average southern and noble First Man family. When the Andals came proclaiming the seven and you got it, that bowing to them would save your neck, title and castle, you could do that. You could even give a praying to the old gods. But you would not need to give up beliving, that they exist.

Actually, you would start to fear them. Because you would keep beliving, that they exist and you would not know, just how angry they are.

Only after a while, you would notice that nothing bad happens. This would proof, that the new ones have more power. So you leave the old ones be. But around them, you would allways have that guilty feeling of never having called, while knowing you should have.

It is that, what Cat and many others experience. And that is also why some familys who bowed without having been conquerred keept their tree. The stopped calling. But they kept the memories, the phon number and the phone.

[Uncat]

Uupsi, double post

[Uncat]

Or, adding to what I just said, the new Andal family in the old castle would build a nice sept but shreek away from cutting the tree. Because, being in a strange land, you would not want to anger that lands god more then nescessary. So you bring your faith over but you stay aware, that there are older an scarrier forces in that lands, which you now claim as yours.

This would also perfectly fit for Tully and Riverrun