Heresy 16

[Alarum]

@ Shadow Fox

Many thanks for the post. In my mind, metaphorical significance of the constellations stands apart from any kind of plot ramifications. I think their inclusion and significance is more to stand in homage of important characters, rather than to give any hints about events to come.

That is excluding, of course, the Ice Dragon's rider with the blue star eyes.

Winky face.

[alienarea]

So much overnight... I've got to dash for work, but just a quick thought on the timelines while we're thinking about them.

Back in the beginning we were told through Maester Luwin that the Long Night happened 8,000 years ago, and that the Andals turned up about 4,000 years ago. Now we now know by his own admission GRRM is being "misty" here and that after the first 1,000 years back its mince. What we have been told more recently is that the Andals only turned up (in force at least) 2,000 years ago, hence the suggestion discussed above that if the weirwoods were burned out 1,000 years ago along with all that other stuff, then it happened after rather than during the Andal conquest.

That's straightforward enough, but there's another implication. According to Luwin's dodgy chronology the Andals turned up about halfway between the Long Night and Aegon's Conquest. If they are much more recent that then opens up a much bigger gap between the supposed date of the Long Night and their arrival - 4,000 years! This just doesn't fit at all with the little we know and in turn suggests that the Long Night was also much more recent.

Basic scenario, without tripping over imaginary dates: Long Night and loss of kingdoms in the realm of Ice (above the Wall) followed by period of instability as the remaining shattered kingdoms sort themselves out and consolidate themselves into seven - a process still not complete when the Andals turn up, within say 1,000 years tops, and profit by that instability to carry out their conquest.

I wonder if the Wiki about Joramun is right:

Joramun was a legendary King-Beyond-the-Wall. According to myth, he blew the Horn of Winter and woke the giants from the earth.^[1] Joramun was also recorded to have brought down the Night's King alongside the King in the North.^[2]

For example I doubt he was a King-Beyond-The Wall. In the two chapters listed in the Wiki it doesn't say he was a King-Beyond-The-Wall, but a wildling leader. Could he be a giant? (because Mance searches in the graves of giants and the CotF claim the giants as their brothers and their bane)

Also, we probably need to closely investigate when the Others (as in White Walkers) came for the first time. Old Nan says it was during the Long Night.

Is it possible that the pale woman seen by the Night King was the first (like the Faerie Queen)? Because if Others had been seen before, one of the Night Watch should have blown the horn before the Night King could have spotted her (assuming he was not standing watch that night).

Crackpot scenario:

- The First Men are fighting back the CotF, moving north, building strongholds. The Night Watch is founded to watch out for enemies in the night, dressing in black for camouflage. That was there before the Long Night and before the wall was build. Possibly just watching in every stronghold. That would fit with the watcher on the walls line in the vow and the hundred kingdoms and the hundred dragonglass daggers.

- The Night King happens. He meets the Other woman. Is his quest for her the tale of the Last Hero? It is stated that he gives his seed, is this what creates the White Walkers? (how does Craster fit in?)

- The Stark in Winterfell allies with Joramun and brings down the Night King.

- The Night King is sacrificed in Winterfell, this is what Bran sees through the weirwood.

- The wall is build and the Nightwatch gets transformed

Just an idle thought, if we're right about the Sidhe connection then the Great Other will be the Queen of Faerie

And since we are dealing with winter the Queen of Faerie must be Snow White :D Or maybe Dalla, or Val, or Morna Wood Witch?

If Dalla was the Queen of Faerie, she maybe had to die for giving birth to Mance's son. Who will become the new Craster in time ...

[alienarea]

About the thousand years. When I looked up about Joramun in the Jon chapter in ACoK (p. 362 in my paperback), Jon remembers when the direwolf with the six pups was found. The next sentence is: A thousand years ago.

That could imply that a thousand years ago is widely used to describe something that happened long ago, though in this case it is only three years.

[Eyron]

I still think Sansa is the Moonmaiden. She will become the ruler of the Vale not of the North and help Jon in the fight against the others, so i don't think Rickon needs to die because of her.

About Mance I think he wants the horn for protection, to threaten the other lords and kings to not mess with him.

Good point about Sansa, she is the maiden of the Moon, the Vale. It is strongly and repeatedly connected to the moon.

Agreed about Mance, I think that is very likely. That was what he used it [the alleged Horn of Joramun] for when he threatened to blow it to get through the Wall.

I must have been unclear. I mean Sansa will choose a quiet life instead of being in the middle of the game, as wished by Jaime in his ADWD chapter, not that Sansa will hook up with Jaime. I have him down as a dead man, anyway.

Ok, I see :D

I thought you implied the ship, with that "sooooo". It was very funny the way I read it.

And speaking of dead -- I'm pretty sure that Jon will die, :bawl: because worlds and nations have little use for heroes after they save the world. I also think Arya might die because she said the words "I hope your princess (she's the princess) dies," (paraphrase). This looks like one of those throw-away statements that actually predict the future GRRM is so fond of. So that's two more Starks gone -- but not Rickon, please. Hasn't that kid suffered enough?

I don't want him to die of course, but it may happen. I don't think it's impossible at all. And regarding Arya, there was also a vision of her lying dead in the snow, Needle in her hand IIRC. Was it Jon's dream?

Moonmaid ... makes me remember what Dany is told about that when the sun kisses the moon it cracks and dragons fall to earth. Then Dany could be the moonmaid?

Well this is a good thought, but Dany is not eh... a maid :D

[Ser Leftwich]

Jon:

"So many stars, he thought as he trudged up the slope through pines and firs and ash. Maester Luwin had taught him his stars as a boy in Winterfell; he had learned the names of the twelve houses of heaven and the rulers of each; he could find the seven wanderers sacred to the Faith; he was old friends with the Ice Dragon, the Shadowcat, the Moonmaid, and the Sword of the Morning. All those he shared with Ygritte, but some of the others. We look up at the same stars, and see such different things. The King's Crown was the Cradle, to hear her tell it; the Stallion was the Horned Lord; the red wanderer that septons preached was sacred to their Smith up here was called the Thief. And when the Thief was in the Moonmaid, that was a propitious time for a man to steal a woman, Ygritte insisted."

(Bolding is mine)

When Jon refers to "the seven wanderers" he is talking about other planets in the solar system, right? The word planets comes from ancient Greek for wandering star.

Might indicate some connection between the Faith and the Maesters, although, if you can see 7 planets with the naked eye, they would have been able to seem them forever. Just as likely co-opting the 7 wanderers into the Faith. Which might lend something to the theory of the Faith evolving from the R'holloristas.

Early morning mental ramblings.

[Ser Leftwich]

I least I know where I think I should be standing.

I think its time to start heresizing on something else like the Maesters

There has been some.

[Ciazio]

I don't want him to die of course, but it may happen. I don't think it's impossible at all. And regarding Arya, there was also a vision of her lying dead in the snow, Needle in her hand IIRC. Was it Jon's dream?

It was Jon speaking to Arya, not a dream :cool4:

She had just fled from Septa Mordane and Jon said something like "You should go back asap or they'll make you sew all winter long and we'll find you frozen under the snow with a needle in your hand"

It was in her first POV in AGOT (sorry if I'm not quoting the exact words).

[7V3N]

There has been some.

We also discussed recently (Heresy 15 I think) about the pyromancers/alchemists and the possibility of their conflict with the maesters, and a rise in power when the dragons had problems and the Targaryens became suspicious of the maesters.

[hotweaselsoup]

It was Jon speaking to Arya, not a dream :cool4:

She had just fled from Septa Mordane and Jon said something like "You should go back asap or they'll make you sew all winter long and we'll find you frozen under the snow with a needle in your hand"

It was in her first POV in AGOT (sorry if I'm not quoting the exact words).

Here's the exact quote:

"You had best run back to your room, little sister. Septa Mordane will surely be lurking. The longer you hide, the sterner the penance. You'll be sewing all through winter. When the spring thaw comes, they will find your body with a needle still locked tight between your frozen fingers."

Yup, Arya will spend all winter "sewing" (reaping, more like), and will die in the end, Needle still clutched in her cold, dead hand. :sob:

ETA: for a little sweet with the bitter, though, I think (I hope!) Arya may enjoy a second life chez Nymeria

[hotweaselsoup]

Jon:

"So many stars, he thought as he trudged up the slope through pines and firs and ash. Maester Luwin had taught him his stars as a boy in Winterfell; he had learned the names of the twelve houses of heaven and the rulers of each; he could find the seven wanderers sacred to the Faith; he was old friends with the Ice Dragon, the Shadowcat, the Moonmaid, and the Sword of the Morning. All those he shared with Ygritte, but some of the others. We look up at the same stars, and see such different things. The King's Crown was the Cradle, to hear her tell it; the Stallion was the Horned Lord; the red wanderer that septons preached was sacred to their Smith up here was called the Thief. And when the Thief was in the Moonmaid, that was a propitious time for a man to steal a woman, Ygritte insisted."

(Bolding is mine)

When Jon refers to "the seven wanderers" he is talking about other planets in the solar system, right? The word planets comes from ancient Greek for wandering star.

Might indicate some connection between the Faith and the Maesters, although, if you can see 7 planets with the naked eye, they would have been able to seem them forever. Just as likely co-opting the 7 wanderers into the Faith. Which might lend something to the theory of the Faith evolving from the R'holloristas.

Early morning mental ramblings.

Ah, I never equated the seven wanderers with other planets, but that makes perfect sense! So the red wanderer, the Thief, is probably the ASoIaF version of Mars, and not the red comet as I originally thought. So, when the Thief is in the Moonmaid, it's something like saying when Mars is in the constellation Virgo?

[Black Crow]

- The First Men are fighting back the CotF, moving north, building strongholds. The Night Watch is founded to watch out for enemies in the night, dressing in black for camouflage. That was there before the Long Night and before the wall was build. Possibly just watching in every stronghold. That would fit with the watcher on the walls line in the vow and the hundred kingdoms and the hundred dragonglass daggers.

This comes up from time to time but can I say as a former ranger myself back in the day, spending far too much time lurking in the dark, that black is a lousy choice for camouflage at night. As the saying goes, at night all cats are grey, and black figures stand out like nobody's business. Trust me, I've been there and laughed at the silly sods who thought they were being clever in black.

[Uncat]

Here's the exact quote:

"You had best run back to your room, little sister. Septa Mordane will surely be lurking. The longer you hide, the sterner the penance. You'll be sewing all through winter. When the spring thaw comes, they will find your body with a needle still locked tight between your frozen fingers."

Yup, Arya will spend all winter "sewing" (reaping, more like), and will die in the end, Needle still clutched in her cold, dead hand. :sob:

ETA: for a little sweet with the bitter, though, I think (I hope!) Arya may enjoy a second life chez Nymeria

:(

[DragonSpawn]

:(

Doesn't sound good does it? :( but im sure i read that GRRM's wife may have 'intervened'... it does say 'body' not dead... And theres always Nymeria... If Jon survives his own funeral to find Arya in the spring he may know how to do the same for her. I think he even prays to th gods about Arya at one point saying something like "please give me this one" ... A small ray of hope? :)

ETA: + the last hero sought out the CotF to "win back what the armies of men have lost" ... Not necessarily to defeat the others...

[Uncat]

Someone has said so before: But looking at this that way, they will all die. All but the girl who's wolf Martin killed off early. He did it, because that one Martin will let live to become the lonly, icy queen of the Others.

[alienarea]

This comes up from time to time but can I say as a former ranger myself back in the day, spending far too much time lurking in the dark, that black is a lousy choice for camouflage at night. As the saying goes, at night all cats are grey, and black figures stand out like nobody's business. Trust me, I've been there and laughed at the silly sods who thought they were being clever in black.

Never was in the army myself, thank you for clarification. But I guess it is better than white?

Any thoughts on the other parts?

[Uncat]

Okey, before I get stuck someway between bargaining and depression on my way to true grief, I'll do something usefull.

I know, how the wall was made.

It just came to me while looking up the water volume of the Swiss glaciers. Turns out, the wall contains as much water as some midsized glaciers. Then this thought struck me

The Wall is a glacier. I always imagined it as a frozen wave or condensed out of thin air. But Martin tells us, that it grew over thousands of years. He the speculated a little about the Watch adding to it and in the book it says, that every LC has left it higher, then he found it. Well the last part is true. Only he did not add to the Wall. Winter did.

The Wall is a Glacier without a mountainbed. Every winter enourmous amounts of snow fall down on the north. But being no permafrost area (which btw. is quite interesting), come spring, the snows melt away everywere. Only along a threehundred miles long line it would not melt.

It would pile up, pressing on the old snow from the winter before and turning it to ice each winter for a thousand winters or more. Magic also kept the snow from sliding of to the sides. Thus, over the millenia, the demarcation line would keep raising, held together by magic.

By the way, it did not start of at ground level. The oldest snow in the Wall would still be the snow of the long night. When winter left and the snows went, the snow below the line, which the WW had drawn upon the snow (they walk on it) would stay, forming the first Wall. It was already a hundred feet high, because, as Old Nan tells, snow had fallen a hundred feet deep. That snow is still there, but pressed down tod maybe a foot or two of solid ice along with every snow, that ever fell on the North of Westeros.

All the Watch had to do, was to sit back and trample down their walkway on top. Every Lord Comander left the Wall higher then he found it.

The Line was drawn by the Others: their line in the snow. Winter did the rest.

[Black Crow]

The Line was drawn by the Others: their line in the snow. Winter did the rest.

Absolutely brilliant :bowdown:

[Eyron]

It was Jon speaking to Arya, not a dream :cool4:

She had just fled from Septa Mordane and Jon said something like "You should go back asap or they'll make you sew all winter long and we'll find you frozen under the snow with a needle in your hand"

It was in her first POV in AGOT (sorry if I'm not quoting the exact words).

Thank you! And hotweaselsoup!

I couldn't remember where it was and I have not read those chapters in a while.

This seems to be definite foreshadowing of the end, but GRRM is a gardener author, he makes stuff up on the fly :) So there is still hope!

[Black Crow]

Never was in the army myself, thank you for clarification. But I guess it is better than white?

Any thoughts on the other parts?

Except in the snow...

As for the rest, there are two scenarios to explain why the Queen of Faerie was able to get up close and personal without getting shot.

To take Old Nan's tale uncritically, she didn't come anywhere near the Nights King. He spied her from afar and being a man without fear went and chased her down, whereupon she first laid a spell on him and then on his men.

To take a slightly more critical look at it, I'd be inclined to say there was no blowing of horns because they were already on friendly terms and that the "chase" was a ritual one and its not until a generation (and much trafficking in changelings) later that for political reasons he's overthrown by his brother. The old Watch ends up with their heads decorating spikes and the new lot start chanting prayers to R'hllor and promising to father no children who can be taken as changelings.

ETA: spelling

[Eyron]

Oh Uncat, that was very good!

I don't know if it is certain (I seem to remember something about the Wall being made from ice of the glaciers in the Frost Fangs... perhaps that was only speculation) but it is an excellent explanation :bowdown: