Heresy 12

[Ser Leftwich]

Oft referred to evidence in Heresy is the history books referred to by different characters, Sam and Rodrik “The Reader” Harlaw, which lead to possible discrepancies in the timeline of events with the when of the Andal invasion being a major hinge in Heresy.

The writing down of history after the Andal invasion is of vital importance in that the First Men did not have writing, as such, and left only runes on rocks and presumably oral histories. Sam mentions that the earliest histories were written by Septons, the priests of the Faith of the Seven which shows a relationship between the written language of the Andals and the Faith. This is not to say they were all eminent scholars or even all literate, as is the case in current times as we learn from Septon Meribald, but that literacy and scholarship was part of the Faith.

At some point the Stary Sept, the ‘Vatican City’ of Faith of the Seven is built in Oldtown. What made the Faith use Oldtown? Oldtown is one of the oldest and largest cites in Westeros, well established before the Andal invasion. A large city is a good place to have a psychological impact on the collective culture of Westeros. Oldtown is also the site of the Citadel, the school of the Maesters. We do not know how old the Citadel is or how long maesters have operated in Westeros. All we have is in the AFfC appendix a description that the Hightower family has been a longtime patron of the Citadel. Also, the description given of the Citadel in AFfC, prominent features an ancient weirwood on the Isle of Ravens which has been there a long time and possibly pre-dates the Andal invasion of Westeros.

A major duty of the maesters is to act as postmen, writing and reading correspondence, via ravens. From the ADwD Bran chapters, we have evidence of the ravens being used as messengers by the CotF and that practice being passed on to the First Men from the CotF. We do not know how old the Citadel is or how long maesters have operated in Westeros, but it is hard to discount some relationship between the maesters use of ravens and the CotF use of ravens. I propose that the origins of the maesters lie in kind of ‘priesthood’ of the religion that the First Men adopted/developed from the CotF and the maesters learned ravenry as well as other practices from the CotF.

The Faith of the Seven establishes itself in Oldtown and, along with Andal culture in general, forces the maesters into a secondary and sub-servient role of importance, but did not completely obliterate maesterdom as communication by raven was, and still is, far too valuable to lose. The skills and knowledge of the maesters, even as far back as the Andal invasion likely extended beyond raven communication; there was much to learn from the maesters and no real reason to wipe them out. This holds with the theme of co-opting religious and cultural practices of conquered peoples. Maesters pick up writing from the Faith, along with the rest of Westeros. At some point maesters start writing books and histories along with septons.

There are all kinds of add-on extensions with assumptions, theories, and what-ifs that are possible along this line of thought, including but in no way limited to the following:

Why are there discrepancies in the timeline according to different books/authors? Deliberate action taken by some maesters to distance the entire organization of the Citadel from the CotF, with other maesters trying to accurate history.

Marwyn leads readers to believe the current leaders of the Citadel as being skeptical of magic and possibly actively trying to limit/destroy knowledge of magic in the general world of Westeros or even more. (See the maesters-killed-the-dragons conspiracy) Which may be an extension of the Citadel distancing itself from the CotF and magic.

Why are godswoods so prevalent? That is were the ravens used to roost at castles.

Why do maesters drop the family name and take celibacy/service vows? Similar to the NW celibacy/loyalty vow, but we do not know which is older or if there is any relationship between the two organizations.

[Uncat]

If the Others were spirits of dead CotF/Wood Dancers/Starks manifesting in a bodily appearance when it gets very cold the wall wouldn't make sense unless the magic in the wall wouldn't allow the spirits to go above and beyond. Still one could argue that spirits could pass the wall over the Gorge.

Therefore I must conclude:

- the Others are physical beings, not spirits, not from another dimension, ...

Another thing that has always bothered me is the relation of the Others to water. If they are physical beings as assumed above they could use boats to get to Bear Island or Skagos and from there to the mainland of Westeros to avoid the wall. Apparently they can't, possibly because of the (salt) water.

Which brings me to the salty tear of the black gate. If there is saltwater in the wall, which keeps the Others back, are they semi-quatic? Like jellyfish that can walk the land in extreme cold? There could be a connection to the Ironborn. We do not sow would be a fitting slogan for the Others as well.

I think I've got it now: The Others are salt water faeries with a vengeance :dunno:

Or they themself were the guys who raised the Wall as a way to tell the newcomers, the humans to keep their iron butts the hell out of there.

Look at that Wall: Why use ice of all things? Why is that gate build in a fashion that it rather feels like it lets some one coming from the South into the North. Seen from the South, it has all traits of an entrance door, not an exit door. Why make it so high, if it is the magic that protects? Told it before: That Wall was build by someone who did not want humans trampling about in their pretty garden. Not because they would be affraid of humans. They just son't want to be bothered

[Uncat]

Oft referred to evidence in Heresy is the history books referred to by different characters, Sam and Rodrik “The Reader” Harlaw, which lead to possible discrepancies in the timeline of events with the when of the Andal invasion being a major hinge in Heresy.

The writing down of history after the Andal invasion is of vital importance in that the First Men did not have writing, as such, and left only runes on rocks and presumably oral histories. Sam mentions that the earliest histories were written by Septons, the priests of the Faith of the Seven which shows a relationship between the written language of the Andals and the Faith. This is not to say they were all eminent scholars or even all literate, as is the case in current times as we learn from Septon Meribald, but that literacy and scholarship was part of the Faith.

At some point the Stary Sept, the ‘Vatican City’ of Faith of the Seven is built in Oldtown. What made the Faith use Oldtown? Oldtown is one of the oldest and largest cites in Westeros, well established before the Andal invasion. A large city is a good place to have a psychological impact on the collective culture of Westeros. Oldtown is also the site of the Citadel, the school of the Maesters. We do not know how old the Citadel is or how long maesters have operated in Westeros. All we have is in the AFfC appendix a description that the Hightower family has been a longtime patron of the Citadel. Also, the description given of the Citadel in AFfC, prominent features an ancient weirwood on the Isle of Ravens which has been there a long time and possibly pre-dates the Andal invasion of Westeros.

A major duty of the maesters is to act as postmen, writing and reading correspondence, via ravens. From the ADwD Bran chapters, we have evidence of the ravens being used as messengers by the CotF and that practice being passed on to the First Men from the CotF. We do not know how old the Citadel is or how long maesters have operated in Westeros, but it is hard to discount some relationship between the maesters use of ravens and the CotF use of ravens. I propose that the origins of the maesters lie in kind of ‘priesthood’ of the religion that the First Men adopted/developed from the CotF and the maesters learned ravenry as well as other practices from the CotF.

The Faith of the Seven establishes itself in Oldtown and, along with Andal culture in general, forces the maesters into a secondary and sub-servient role of importance, but did not completely obliterate maesterdom as communication by raven was, and still is, far too valuable to lose. The skills and knowledge of the maesters, even as far back as the Andal invasion likely extended beyond raven communication; there was much to learn from the maesters and no real reason to wipe them out. This holds with the theme of co-opting religious and cultural practices of conquered peoples. Maesters pick up writing from the Faith, along with the rest of Westeros. At some point maesters start writing books and histories along with septons.

There are all kinds of add-on extensions with assumptions, theories, and what-ifs that are possible along this line of thought, including but in no way limited to the following:

Why are there discrepancies in the timeline according to different books/authors? Deliberate action taken by some maesters to distance the entire organization of the Citadel from the CotF, with other maesters trying to accurate history.

Marwyn leads readers to believe the current leaders of the Citadel as being skeptical of magic and possibly actively trying to limit/destroy knowledge of magic in the general world of Westeros or even more. (See the maesters-killed-the-dragons conspiracy) Which may be an extension of the Citadel distancing itself from the CotF and magic.

Why are godswoods so prevalent? That is were the ravens used to roost at castles.

Why do maesters drop the family name and take celibacy/service vows? Similar to the NW celibacy/loyalty vow, but we do not know which is older or if there is any relationship between the two organizations.

Makes some sense. The old "priests of nature" and their knowledge becom the roots for the scientific branch. Can't argue against for now and like the thought.

As for why the Faith estabished its HQ in Oldtown - I suppose the reason is very similar to why Rome became the HQ of the Catolics. It was a cultural and political center. It may not have been the political capital of the (then knowen) world as there were seven kingdoms. But the way it is described it was a cultural capital.

What I have always been wondering about is two things:

A Why is it "the Citadel" - the " ittle fortress"? it does seem to bee a fortified place, but why would it still need to be one in the first place?

B Funny thing is, that the Citadel ist the third 8000 years date. 8000 years ago (by the official timeline) the Wall was build, Winterfell raised and the Citadel's history beginns.

While up in the North some Last Hero brokers a deal which makes his Family the Kings of Winter, deep in the South another organization starts to form. Don't know what this might tell us, just noted the fact.

Edit: Just to be clear, this is not about it being X thousand years ago but rather on this thing aparently happening around the same time.

[Tyryan Lannister]

The one to put here to fellow but more assiduous and perceptive heretics: Is the TV Show loosely related to our books story with tight enough ties to be used as an unreliable source that can help us to explore the books construction?

The one that belongs here only if the answer to the first is yes: what the hell happened with Sam and the white walker in the end of season two of the TV show?

I've been wondering this stuff as well. My answer to the first question is that the show does have enough ties to be used as an unreliable source. We need to remember that GRRM has told D&D the major plot points of Winds and Dream as a just-in-case-I-die-before-I-finish-writing measure, so it is entirely possible that they are just showing things that they have heard directly from GRRM that we, of course, haven't. As for the second question, I really just don't know. I would say that your theory about Sam being left alone because he swore before the old gods is very plausible if it wasn't for the fact that he does get attacked by an Other in the books (which he rather stupidly kills by blindly waving around a piece of obsidian). I think it's more that the Other sees that Sam is both frightened shitless and not going to be any sort of danger... or maybe this one Other is more sentient than the one that Sam kills and this one senses the obsidian and so he knows not to confront Sam?

[Black Crow]

My understanding is that the show is a dramatisation of the Song of Ice and Fire, rather than a book by book retelling of the story which is why some stuff is appearing in a different sequence. As to the other alterations they're significant in a couple of ways. First some things which can be referred to obliquely and left up to our fevered imaginations in the books, need to be more explicit on the screen simply because its a visual medium. Secondly, because there isn't the time nor the space on screen for detail and multiple characters some have to be omitted or merged. A good and uncontroversial example was Bron being made commander of the City Watch in place of some unimportant guy whose name I forget - a simple matter of economy here of no significance. However it is by the same token legitimate to infer that if somebody doesn't make it into the show then they are not likely to have a long term importance in the books.

As for Sam and the Others/Sidhe in the series finale. I don't think the guy ignoring him is significant; it was just a dramatic way of revealing both the Sidhe and their army of the dead in broad daylight - though the way they were preceded by a cold mist was interesting - and so too were the snowy ruins of the Red Keep.

[Black Crow]

Interesting thought by Ser Leftwich on the Maesters - a parallel with the Druids perhaps? A professed dislike of magic wouldn't necessarily rule out a connection with the Children and the Old Gods if by magic they mean interfering with nature. The Children are singers of the song of Earth and as such attuned to the natural cycles of death and rebirth, there is magic there but its magic which takes its natural course, rather than "working magic" to do unnatural things.

[Ser Leftwich]

Interesting thought by Ser Leftwich on the Maesters - a parallel with the Druids perhaps? A professed dislike of magic wouldn't necessarily rule out a connection with the Children and the Old Gods if by magic they mean interfering with nature. The Children are singers of the song of Earth and as such attuned to the natural cycles of death and rebirth, there is magic there but its magic which takes its natural course, rather than "working magic" to do unnatural things.

This theory could also be an explanation for the "White Priestesses" theory for North the wall as a kind of male/female schism within the CotF-based First Men religion.

Also, the presence of Marwyn and like-minded maesters could be a kind of more open-minded classic version of what the maesters did.

[Lykos]

My favorite threads are coming together again, thank you Ser Leftwich.

@Ser Leftwich, that´s a good thought. The wildling is Morna Whitemask, Jon gives her command over Queensgate. The first written documents are done by septons as Sam tells Jon in Dance.

So maybe the Citadel started out as a sort of druid school, where the First Men learned to sing the song of earth and to talk to the ravens in the true tongue. I think under the influence of the Andals some learned to write and became maesters and the others became the first bards.

[Uncat]

My understanding is that the show is a dramatisation of the Song of Ice and Fire, rather than a book by book retelling of the story which is why some stuff is appearing in a different sequence. As to the other alterations they're significant in a couple of ways. First some things which can be referred to obliquely and left up to our fevered imaginations in the books, need to be more explicit on the screen simply because its a visual medium. Secondly, because there isn't the time nor the space on screen for detail and multiple characters some have to be omitted or merged. A good and uncontroversial example was Bron being made commander of the City Watch in place of some unimportant guy whose name I forget - a simple matter of economy here of no significance. However it is by the same token legitimate to infer that if somebody doesn't make it into the show then they are not likely to have a long term importance in the books.

As for Sam and the Others/Sidhe in the series finale. I don't think the guy ignoring him is significant; it was just a dramatic way of revealing both the Sidhe and their army of the dead in broad daylight - though the way they were preceded by a cold mist was interesting - and so too were the snowy ruins of the Red Keep.

Quick shot at that vision: Visions in the books are bitches, and if I were the producer of the show, I would leave it at that. Meaning: I took it to be a vision of the ruin Danny causes when invading Westeros on the verge of Winter.

The Red Keep in ruins could very well be the work of her and her dragons. It's the snow that gives it the "Other" twist. But winter is coming anyway, be it with or without White Walkers. So snow falling silently on the dragons devastation would be perfectly normal, too.

Then in the books there is Jaimies dream of green fire in Kings Landing which would be the whispered hint, that something baaad is going to happen. So actually this vision is neither a new thing nore a "only can come true, if the Others invade" kind of thing.

It's is the thing you would do on TV to keep the audience wondering. It's actually just the kind of thing Martin loves to do: Make the audience expect certain things to happen and them show us something that we will interpret according to that expectations - snow! The Others are coming! - while completly overseeing that there are a lot of other possibilities one of which will be the real thing.

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

I haven't been able to get on here in like a month... my computer really didnt like the server issues.

Since last night at like 10:02pm EST I've been trying to get on here to see what you think of the Walker acting as an officer amongst the wights, ordering them to battle. (Still unsure why it bypassed Sam? Perhaps it had more pressing concerns...perhaps it didn't see him? ...though it rather looked like the Walker stared him down)) While George didn't write the episode (dammit), we mustn't forget he remains an executive producer.

Glad this is back up again.

Valyrian Steel seems to be closely lnked to the existence of dragons. Somehow it sticked to my memory, that you need dragonfire to forge it (because dragonfire is the hottest kind of fire there is and you actually need very high temperatures to work some kind steel aloys). But I'm not sure about that one.

Then there is the question of "how much is a lot?". In a time where there is no industrial means to work steel, a blade like Ice would be worth a small lordship. After all someone spend months folding and hammering the steel. Then, secret knowlegde goes into it (be it spells or just the secrets of the trade) which agaiin means, that there weren't many who knew how to do it and had the means to do so (dragons). And finaly, the blades had to get from Valyria to Westeros. Taking all this in account, we can at least assume, that Valyrian Steel was not abundant in Westeros even back in the days, when the Valyrians still were around.

Btw. An interesting fact on the side: Either the Valyrians used the same wappon design as the Westerosi or those great-, long-, and bastard swords were actually "mail ordered" in Valyria and custome made to the needs of a Westerosi knight. The TV show stresses that: The dagger, that almost killed Bran has design, which rather links it to the East and Essos, while Ice and Longclaw just look like they would, if they would, if they were made in Westeros.

So, adding up: Very expensive wappons, few in Westeros could pay for (only the higher Lords). Now wonder, there a only a few hundred left. Same thing as Mithrill in LOTR, only that the raw materials were more abundand. Though we don't even know that. Maybe the Valyrians found something like Chrome or Vanadium or Molybdem in their fire mines to forge a very special steel alloy and which got lost along with the knowledge about it when the place blew up.

Sorry for pecking holes in that timeline - it's just the stuff I'm stumbling about, when I crack my head over these matters...

If I am not mistaken, in A Storm of Swords when Master Mott presents Tywin w/ the swords made from Ice, Tyrion states that there are "only two or three thousand in the world"

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

Books vs Series....

I agree w/ Crow here. A interesting sensation.

The series will deviate from the books in ways that remove any un-necessary - though often both interesting and enlightening - salients which while important parts of the book tales - see Jeyne Westerling vs. Talisa - do not in of themselves actively move the storyline forward with sufficient alacrity. (I'd compare it to Peter Jackson removing Tom Bombadil from LOTR Films)

While there have been and shall continue to be deviations from the texts, I do not believe that any core storyline divergences shall occur. We shall reach the same conclusions, but through somewhat less tortuous means.

As for the Other not killing Sam, I can only offer the supposition that it felt it had more important matters to attend.... perhaps marshalling wights requires more effort than I've (we've?) previously presumed. Honestly, I'm equally perplexed. While it seems like it saw Sam (we know Sam saw it)... the zoom out does NOT confirm that.

I was about to have a nit-pick-the-storyline-deviation fit until the last scene with the 3 blasts of the horn.

Does this affect any opinions of those who heretofore contended that the relationship between wights & Others was not what we had been led to believe (("They were touched by white walkers..." & Old Nan's story about armies of the dead led by Others))?

It's re-inforced my thoughts that the wights truly are the minions of the Others, but I had confidently held that postion before yesterday....

As for the Visions in the House of the UnDying...

-- I had been nervous about that from the begining... without inner monologue, how could the non-reading viewers have recognized Rhaegar.... and if there was a vision, and Rhaegar, Elia & Baby Aegon were somehow identified, how on earth would any non-reader viewer have understood the significance and prophetical suggestions. Most unfortunate. Most unfortunate indeed. ((( I hope viewers will remember Selmy from season 1, if and when he does appear.)))

-- I thought the Red Keep ruin was a clear allusion to the existential threat of White Walkers manifesting North of the Wall, preparing to strike once winter arrives.

Edit **** Note the white mist eminating from the mounted Walker. Look closely. Also note the fact that there were at least two of them, likely more. So very exciting. I'm so very glad they included this as the ending. So very glad. Super awesome. Most unexpected.

[lokisnow]

I think that ending vindicates both Old Nan, "leading hosts of the slain," Black Crow (Sam does not attack and is therefore not attacked in turn), and my own theory about the Fist being important to the White Walkers (the dude looks pissed when he raises his spear and cries in fury at the fist in front of his host, sort of like yelling, "charge").

***

It's possible the show may be merging the many faced god and the red god, perhaps because the difference is ultimately unimportant to how things turn out (meaning the faceless men will ally with R'hloor in the end).

***

Crackpot theory that goes all meta in a weird way:

Why is it always First Men? Wouldn't it make more sense if it were First Women? Many/Most of the legends of the North prominently feature a feminine element. It's only been changed to first men by male dominated institutions and a patriarchy taking over a matriarchy.

[Eyron]

I like your theory too Ser Leftwich. I've been thinking similar thoughts.

Interesting thought by Ser Leftwich on the Maesters - a parallel with the Druids perhaps? A professed dislike of magic wouldn't necessarily rule out a connection with the Children and the Old Gods if by magic they mean interfering with nature. The Children are singers of the song of Earth and as such attuned to the natural cycles of death and rebirth, there is magic there but its magic which takes its natural course, rather than "working magic" to do unnatural things.

Hear hear! That is what I believe. Sorcery is not the same as natures own magic. Think about the witches who practiced nature medicine and said to practice harmless magic. They did not disturb matters such as life and death. The difference is in the magic arts versus the dark arts, which I think in this story is the Children's magic versus the bloodmagic.

I had posted yesterday but my post disappeared. The board ate a few posts last night, probably the server change or some such.

I have a feeling the maesters are the "wise men" in the story of the pact. The wise men and the heroes came to the Isle of faces to seal the pact with the Children. I suspect the wise men were learned men that were knowledgeable in medicine and other arts, like druids or medicine men, and that those are the origin of the maesters order. They seem to have a mission, a purpose towards the realm itself. Their vow is similar to the NW vow. Is that not very fitting with the pact? The pact must have meant that certain rules and commitments were enacted, and that these needed men to uphold them.

If the use of magic was part of that, the wise men could be the ones that were charged with upholding the order. I think the use of magic likely was part of the specifics of the pact, and that both parties promised to not use it. I don't have any real back-up for that, I just have a gut feeling and the maesters dislike for magic. The First men got the benefit of becoming part of the Old religion and the Children won a strong ally. An ally they may have known that they needed, before the next human invasion to come.

By burning the weirwoods, the Childrens powers could have gone weak, and the magical balance tilted towards fire. The trees were burned, and that may have set things in motion.

We know from reliable sources that the Andals fled the Valyrians :) *Nod to Ran*

A thought I had from the TV-show (that I posted last night but it disappeared) was that it was interesting that Dany found her *home* in the land beyond the Wall, and that she found her dead husband and son there, in the lands of the undead, and she saw this in the house of the Undying. That may mean nothing but it may also be something.

Another thing that just hit me, the Other looked a lot like a gnarled old tree. Which clearly goes against the image we got from the graphic novel. Seems to me the show did not consult GRRM much here, since we know that the artist did when drawing the graphic novel.

[Clueless Northman]

The biggie of course is the hint that the Watch have only been sitting on the Wall for 1,000 years rather than 8,000 years.

That's a bit extreme since it would mean it happened roughly at the same time as Nymeria's invasion of Dorne. (like Lummel, I consider everything up to this invasion to be quite correctly dated since it's very recent history)

However it is by the same token legitimate to infer that if somebody doesn't make it into the show then they are not likely to have a long term importance in the books.

Which would mean that Rhaegar is mostly irrelevant.

I'm really not trusting any major deviation from the books are based on GRRM's revelations of what's to come.

Still, it's interesting to note that the way the whole thing happens with a handful of Others herding a mass of (nearly?) mindless Wights towards the Keep could've been scripted by some heretic leaders from here around ;)

About Dany's TV vision of the ruined Red Keep, the snow might let us wonder if it's the destruction of Winter and Others (with Dany arriving right after it), but the kind of destruction strongly reminds me of Harrenhal - in which case it could indeed be the result of Dany's dragons laying waste to King's Landing during winter (or right before it hits the Crownlands).

[Black Crow]

Which would mean that Rhaegar is mostly irrelevant.

Not necessarily, apart from being mentioned in conversation Rhaegar only gets a walk-on part in the undying vision - doing that in a way non-readers would understand would be horrendously difficult on screen. If Rhaegar is significant, ie; R+L=J then the reveal will come about differently - as indeed it still has to in the book (if ever)

About Dany's TV vision of the ruined Red Keep, the snow might let us wonder if it's the destruction of Winter and Others (with Dany arriving right after it), but the kind of destruction strongly reminds me of Harrenhal - in which case it could indeed be the result of Dany's dragons laying waste to King's Landing during winter (or right before it hits the Crownlands).

I thought it interesting in two ways - the damage as you say had obviously been done by fire, but how far it was a foretelling might be a different matter. We were given two visions and in both Dany was tempted, first to sit upon the Iron Throne and then to play happy families. Both were visibly resisted.

[Black Crow]

Another thing that just hit me, the Other looked a lot like a gnarled old tree. Which clearly goes against the image we got from the graphic novel. Seems to me the show did not consult GRRM much here, since we know that the artist did when drawing the graphic novel.

Yes, at first I thought it a little disappointing we didn't get the "beautiful" people described by GRRM, but at least it was a big step forward from the AGoT prologue.

However I'd take the gnarled old tree comparison on just a little further and into a very heretical line of thinking - our man on the dead horse looked an awful lot like the faces carved in the weirwoods

[Eyron]

Yes, at first I thought it a little disappointing we didn't get the "beautiful" people described by GRRM, but at least it was a big step forward from the AGoT prologue.

However I'd take the gnarled old tree comparison on just a little further and into a very heretical line of thinking - our man on the dead horse looked an awful lot like the faces carved in the weirwoods

I know... *grumble* :D Fuel to the old heresy fire.

Especially they looked like the weirwoodtree faces and the Children in the Bluray GoT, if you have seen that... Which do not add up with the interpretation in the graphic novel in my view. Very confusing.

[Black Crow]

I know... *grumble* :D Fuel to the old heresy fire.

Especially they looked like the weirwoodtree faces and the Children in the Bluray GoT, if you have seen that... Which do not add up with the interpretation in the graphic novel in my view. Very confusing.

I know... *grumble* :D Fuel to the old heresy fire.

Especially they looked like the weirwoodtree faces and the Children in the Bluray GoT, if you have seen that... Which do not add up with the interpretation in the graphic novel in my view. Very confusing.

I suppose a possible explanation might be that they can change their faces to suit the occasion, with a "weirwood face" being an appropriate authority face to direct (dead) wildlings. Otherwise we have to consider a much closer link between the Children and the Others.

[alienarea]

Or they themself were the guys who raised the Wall as a way to tell the newcomers, the humans to keep their iron butts the hell out of there.

Look at that Wall: Why use ice of all things? Why is that gate build in a fashion that it rather feels like it lets some one coming from the South into the North. Seen from the South, it has all traits of an entrance door, not an exit door. Why make it so high, if it is the magic that protects? Told it before: That Wall was build by someone who did not want humans trampling about in their pretty garden. Not because they would be affraid of humans. They just son't want to be bothered

Sorry, have to disagree. The wall must have the purpose to hold the Others back because:

1. Mance in ADwD states that the Wildlings want to pass through the wall to be safe from the Others. Though we suspect he does not have the Horn of Joramun, IIRC it has not been proven that he is bluffing.

2. Apparently the Others cannot cross sea water, or they could have attacked bear island or Skagos easily.

3. If the White Walkers don't want to be bothered, the conflict with them would end after ADwD. The wildlings have passed the wall, except for Hardhome and some CotF there is nobody north of the wall.

[Lummel]

Hmm does the fact that Mance believes that the Wall will hold back the white walkers prove that it does?

Mance was a ranger and presumably that's what the nights watch believes...on the otherhand how much of a barrier can an ice wall be to extremely cold creatures who have been known to travel about on giant ice spiders?