Heresy 16

[Sand Snake No. 9]

We've discussed Val as a priestess, so I want to share this link discussing Val and Tormund as Jon's intermediaries to the old gods (which I actually found in yet another thread!) The OP is excellent, written by someone who knows his Norse religions. I'm now convinced that Val is a high priestess. I hope she kicks Mel's ass.

ETA: Sowwy, forgot to actually link the link. Duh.

[Uncat]

Its all part of the core heresy and I'll address it in Professor Crow's dissertation, but essentially the feeling is that when the Andals came they didn't burn out the Children as they went, but were too busy dealing with the kingdoms to worry about the tree-huggers. Then, about 1,000 years ago something happened, or rather a whole series of inter-related events because there are scattered references all over the place to different things happening at about this time. While I agree with Sandsnake No.9 that the dating can't be regarded as accurate there is a definite consistency in placing them "at about that time".

Its very tempting to link the Night that Ended Battle, defeating the Others, with the overthrow of the Nights King and to broaden the usage of "Others" to include all the "other old races", ie; to link both with the expulsion of the Children/Singers.

Ahh! Never got that part of the idea before. So, say some 2000-1500 years ago, the Andals came, pressing into Westeros waring ang marrying the old noble families of the First Man until being the dominant ethnicy in Westeros. More then often they would leave the old gods be, just ignoring them.

But then a thousend years or more ago, some radicalisation happened. Something like the ressourgence of the radical side of the Faith, which we are seing right now.

And that radicalisation was directed against the Old Gods and the Children and led to the cutting and burning all over the place in the south.

It was, when Nymeria's War happened and the Yronwoods fought the Martells (and the Fowlers), it was when the Blackwoods and the Brackens as well as the Daynes and Oakemhearts started to go at each others troath. It was, when - as Cat says - the southern Weirwoods were cut. It was, when the Watch started to blow their horns for rangers returning.

What else is refferenced as happening a thousend years or more ago?

[Uncat]

I doubt that the series will continue long enough for us to see a grown-up Rickon,assuming he lives (please?) but I can imagine him becoming like those fearsome ancient Kings of the North, like Ice-Eyes, exactly the type of person needed to straighten some asses out.

Just what I'm hoping for. But where did you find that princess quote? You get to keep Rickon, if I get to keep my murderous girl.

[Lykos]

Uncat, it´s when Arya talks to Elmar Frey (she was promised to, so Robb could cross at the Twins) in Clash, Chapter 63 Arya

"My princess," he sobbed. "We've been dishonored, Aenys says. There was a bird from the Twins. My lord father says I'll need to marry someone else, or be a septon."

A stupid princess, she thought, that's nothing to cry over. "My brothers might be dead," she confided.

Elmar gave her a scornful look. "No one cares about a serving girl's brothers."

It was hard not to hit him when he said that. "I hope your princess dies " she said, and ran off before he could grab her.

The Manderlys were driven from the Mander in the Reach. House Hoare of the Ironborn might have taken the Riverlands from the Stormkings, though that might have been a little bit more recent, say 700 years around that time the Wandering Wolf fought for the Second Sons and after he returned he wrestled Bear Island from the Iron Born and gave it to the Mormonts.

[Black Crow]

So much overnight... I've got to dash for work, but just a quick thought on the timelines while we're thinking about them.

Back in the beginning we were told through Maester Luwin that the Long Night happened 8,000 years ago, and that the Andals turned up about 4,000 years ago. Now we now know by his own admission GRRM is being "misty" here and that after the first 1,000 years back its mince. What we have been told more recently is that the Andals only turned up (in force at least) 2,000 years ago, hence the suggestion discussed above that if the weirwoods were burned out 1,000 years ago along with all that other stuff, then it happened after rather than during the Andal conquest.

That's straightforward enough, but there's another implication. According to Luwin's dodgy chronology the Andals turned up about halfway between the Long Night and Aegon's Conquest. If they are much more recent that then opens up a much bigger gap between the supposed date of the Long Night and their arrival - 4,000 years! This just doesn't fit at all with the little we know and in turn suggests that the Long Night was also much more recent.

Basic scenario, without tripping over imaginary dates: Long Night and loss of kingdoms in the realm of Ice (above the Wall) followed by period of instability as the remaining shattered kingdoms sort themselves out and consolidate themselves into seven - a process still not complete when the Andals turn up, within say 1,000 years tops, and profit by that instability to carry out their conquest.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

Just what I'm hoping for. But where did you find that princess quote? You get to keep Rickon, if I get to keep my murderous girl.

When Arya is at Harrenhal and working as Lord Bolton's cupbearer she meets Elmar Frey, Lord Bolton's squire and the nobody to whom her mother thoughtfully [/sarcasm] betrothed her. Elmar mocks Arya for being a servant and brags about being betrothed to a princess. The Freys learn about Robb's marriage around this time and Elmar's betrothal to his "princess" is broken and he cries about it. Arya says something like "I wish your princess was dead" or "I hope your princess dies," not knowing that she is the princess. A Clash of Kings, Chapter 64, Arya

You know what these books need? Tables of Contents so we can find the damn chapters in less than half an hour.

[Black Crow]

Just an idle thought, if we're right about the Sidhe connection then the Great Other will be the Queen of Faerie

[Uncat]

When Arya is at Harrenhal and working as Lord Bolton's cupbearer she meets Elmar Frey, Lord Bolton's squire and the nobody to whom her mother thoughtfully [/sarcasm] betrothed her. Elmar mocks Arya for being a servant and brags about being betrothed to a princess. The Freys learn about Robb's marriage around this time and Elmar's betrothal to his "princess" is broken and he cries about it. Arya says something like "I wish your princess was dead" or "I hope your princess dies," not knowing that she is the princess. A Clash of Kings, Chapter 64, Arya

You know what these books need? Tables of Contents so we can find the damn chapters in less than half an hour.

I know. and I wish, they would just give away an ebook to everyone who bought a hardcopy. would not cost a penny and gain them a lot of fans :)

Thanks for the troubles. I dimly remeber that scene but never realised, that they were talking about Arya.

And yes, you are right. She seems pretty much doomed :eek: :bang: :bawl:

[Lannister Hamster]

So the whole idea of balance means we will end up rooting for the Others against Dany and her Dragons otherwise the world is screwed and forever aflame?

[Uncat]

Pretty much. Don't know, if Danny has to go, but the the dragons have to. Look at the Waste, the Valyrians turned Essos into (apart from the free cities. The Rhoyne should be pulsating with live like the Riverlands of the Trident. But there is nothing but history, legends, ghosts and ruins.

[Lannister Hamster]

Pretty much. Don't know, if Danny has to go, but the the dragons have to. Look at the Waste, the Valyrians turned Essos into (apart from the free cities. The Rhoyne should be pulsating with live like the Riverlands of the Trident. But there is nothing but history, legends, ghosts and ruins.

I least I know where I think I should be standing.

I think its time to start heresizing on something else like the Maesters

[FanTasy]

Wish, I were back at college graduating on Sociology. Would be such a great Master theses using the Heresy threats in order to show how a new belive systems forms: It starts off with the charismatic leader who with his radical ideas acquires a set of followers. When other flock in, there are changes and by and by the raising community feels, that some things should be put down in writing. Black Crow, I hope you know that you are short of being proclaimed a prophet and soon even a god?. I love it!

Sorry people. Really not making fun of you. I feel the same urges and if an idea arises which is at crosses with my own I look up with impatience, hoping, that the Black Crow, Eira, Lummel, Lycos or Hotweaselsoupe, Eliana, Fantasy or one of the others who were there before will descend to judge. Guess, that makes my an early priest of the pure Heresy.

Don't know if it is possible to nail down the core Heresies in a way that newcomers won't question them. It would actually mean implementing a Wiki and maybe subthreads which discuss certain aspects.

Blushing ...

I think it is a good idea to have some summary, but let's not see the content of this summary as accepted theory among heretics ... that would be against all heresy stands for in its core and essence. As soon as heresy turns into a belief that is written down, referred to and maybe even defended against people who raise questions ... we can expect threads of heresy-heretics :devil:

[FanTasy]

This was a really nice catch! Perhaps this is foreshadowing, these could be his allies.

Perhaps the moonmaid is Val? But I'd like it to be Sansa. I really think Sansa is growing up to become a queen of winter, I am starting to envision her in the future as Galadriel á la Movie, when in scary mode (a terrible but beautiful queen... all shall despair...) Silly, I know!

Foofd for thought, and good catch Striker!

Moonmaid ... makes me remember what Dany is told about that when the sun kisses the moon it cracks and dragons fall to earth. Then Dany could be the moonmaid?

Jon being the ice dragon, yep.

Arya the shadowcat, nice.

That leaves the sword of the morning ... and me with lingering suspicions considering Jaime turning somehow into the one worthy of carrying Dawn and taking up the office of the Sword of the Morning, even if he isn't a Dayne by blood - for as far as we know.

[Lannister Hamster]

Blushing ...

I think it is a good idea to have some summary, but let's not see the content of this summary as accepted theory among heretics ... that would be against all heresy stands for in its core and essence. As soon as heresy turns into a belief that is written down, referred to and maybe even defended against people who raise questions ... we can expect threads of heresy-heretics :devil:

Instead of an official heresy I think it would be better just to have a list of topics in the debate

[Uncat]

I know. And there are some theories floting around, that I would question, too, if they became heretic canon :)

Maybe we need a Synod of the priests and bishops to decide, what is true Heresy and what is just heresy and as such must be burned and the ashes scattert in the wind. :devil: :devil:

[Lannister Hamster]

Sansa is going to knock off Littlefinger and end up in a life with the littlefolk, where if she had stayed with him she could have achieved greatness

[FanTasy]

You know what these books need? Tables of Contents so we can find the damn chapters in less than half an hour.

True! Very annoying, the lack of tables of content.

It made me do what I never did to books before: making notes on the first pages of each chapter to be able to cross-reference to the tables of contents that are given at westeros.org.

ETA spelling

[DragonSpawn]

Moonmaid ... makes me remember what Dany is told about that when the sun kisses the moon it cracks and dragons fall to earth. Then Dany could be the moonmaid?

Jon being the ice dragon, yep.

Arya the shadowcat, nice.

You could argue this has already happened:

Drogo = Sun and Stars

Dany = Moon of my life

The Moon kissing the Sun could be symbolic of Drogo marrying Dany... he dies - she cracks and turns to magic to save him - and the result is Dragons returning to the world...

@ Uncat - re: Sidhe / Dorne / Female inheritance... you're right - unless the reason for women not inheriting is because they are scary... i.e. Queen of Winter, Leader of the Others (i'm not ruling this out given that female Sidhe seem to be very influential but not sold on it entirely) - but then you would expect to see the Starks practicing the same succession ideals as Dorne... There's definately something funny about the ASOIAF women though... There's a bit where Mel talks to Davos in the cells after he survives the Blackwater and she gives him her very binary view of the world - Men and Women stand apart in her mind as much as Ice and Fire... i need to re-read that bit... The FM surprise at Arya choosing to be an agent of death is also quite telling. Along with the story of the Night King and Garin ... even Varamyr thinking Thistle looks beautiful despite blood-talons and shredded face, and Craster only sacraficing sons all stands out to me as odd...

[nanother]

IMO when Martin started writing these books he just made everything bigger than life/olden than life without worrying too much about the implications. Like, he said he made the Wall too high, and I think he made the timeline too stretched out as well. I mean, according to the original timeline the FM and the CotF spent ~2000 years warring before they decided to make the Pact - how realistic is that?

In any case, it's clear from SSM that he really was thinking in thousands of years in terms of building the Wall back then. So I can cope with the timeline becoming somewhat more compact (=more realistic), say, the Andal invasion being 2000 years ago instead of 4000, but not to the ridiculous extent that some posts in the Heresy threads seem to suggest.

As for the Cat's statement about weirwoods being cut down 1000 years ago, I'm pretty sure it was just the Andal conquest. Her statement is clearly inaccurate, not only does the very castle she grew up in have a weirwood, but there's the Isle of Faces and the weirwoods used in the building of Harrenhal (although those might have been without faces?) that were cut much less than 1000 years ago. So I don't see a reason to think that the number 1000 is any more accurate that the rest of that statement. I think it's just means a very long time.

Also, the Andal invasion was presented as sort of a crusade (I think by Maester Luwin?), so it's in fact it was almost expected of them to stop and destroy the enemies' gods. It must have happened over a long time, possibly centuries, so if you assume that the Andals came 2000 years ago, or slightly less, then took some centuries to conquer Westeros, then saying 1000 years is not wildly inaccurate, not any more than any other historical information in the books. But I think at this point it'd be really convoluted to introduce something that happened the Southron weirwoods well after the Andals were settled, I just can't see that happening.

For reference, here's what Maester Luwin says:

“Oh, very well,” Luwin muttered. “So long as the kingdoms of the First Men held sway, the Pact endured, all through the Age of Heroes and the Long Night and the birth of the Seven Kingdoms, yet finally there came a time, many centuries later, when other peoples crossed the narrow sea.

“The Andals were the first, a race of tall, fair-haired warriors who came with steel and fire and the seven-pointed star of the new gods painted on their chests. The wars lasted hundreds of years, but in the end the six southron kingdoms all fell before them. Only here, where the King in the North threw back every army that tried to cross the Neck, did the rule of the First Men endure. The Andals burnt out the weirwood groves, hacked down the faces, slaughtered the children where they found them, and everywhere proclaimed the triumph of the Seven over the old gods. So the children fled north-“

[Lannister Hamster]

That quote above from Maester Luwin makes it seems like the Andals destroyed the Weirwood groves and slaughtered the children in order to weaken the First Men so they could conquer them.

If the pact endured then why did the Last Hero need to go to the Children? Does this mean that the pact was that the Children would give up their secrets like obsidian dragons to the First Men against the Others in order to protect all of them?