Heresy 16

[hotweaselsoup]

What I find interesting about Sansa's revelations/visions are that they are about castles. She has another vision of a castle when at Kings Landing, when she looks north, seeking Winterfell. I don't have the books at hand so I can't check for similarities.

So we have Sansa having visions of castles. Jon (and Dany, no Stark) have visions of battles. Arya of running with wolves (ETA: hunting and tasting human flesh and blood).

Is there a link, something that connects these visions?

Interesting! Dany also has visions of "home", iirc. Maybe Sansa and Dany - ETA: nevermind LOL, my mind went awol here.

Regarding Uncat’s late-Heresy-15 pursuit of meaning in the “wood” names, I submit a cursory list of such houses, including other woodish names (heavily based on wiki):

North:

• Woodfoot - Likely First Men, ruled Bear Island before Ironborn & Mormonts.
  
• Hornwood - The house and castle share the same name, which could make it pretty old. Sigil is a moose.
  
• Woods - Only mention is Noseless Ned Woods, sworn to Glover.
  
• The Neck Houses - None are necessarily tree-based but all names are highly inspired by the terrain and its features, a la Reed, Boggs, Peat, Marsh, etc.
  
• Forrester - No one identified thus far but sworn to Glover.
  

Riverlands:

• Blackwood - First Men descent, former kings, arms include a weirwood (the only house to do include one, to my best knowledge), retain old gods.
  
• Smallwood - of Acorn Hall - other tree reference, but by all accounts seem a fairly typical southron tribe, although Thoren served the watch, he wasn’t necessarily loved by Mormont.
  
• Blanetree - A Frey widow. Arms include maple leaves, but little other info.
  

Dorne:

• Yronwood - Former kings of Dorne, prior to Rhoynar migration. Aforementioned beef with Martells.
  
• Manwoody - Old house of Kingsgrave, sigil has a skull with a crown referring to the slaying of an old king.
  

Iron Islands:

• Orkwood - of Orkmont. Arms include pines. Supporters of Euron at smoot. Little else known.
  
• Stonetree - Old house, arms include a grey, dead tree. Supported Victarion at the smoot and has ties to Greyjoy family.
  

Vale:

• Waynwood - of Ironoaks. Noble family, seems to have something of a feud with house Royce.
  

Reach:

• Woodbright - Arms contain a field of oak, but no members have been yet introduced.
  
• Appleton - Arms contain an apple tree. Nothing much else.
  
• Ashford - Someone more versed in D&E series may be able to offer some insight.
  
• Oakheart - First Men ancestry, tied to original Kings of the Reach. Oak leaves on arms. Beefs with Dorne.
  

Stormlands: none

Crownlands:

• Byrch - Family remains loyal to Cersei and the “Baratheon” crown. Not much in the way of lineage or history to go on.
  
• Pyne - Cracklaw family, one of which served in Kingsguard.
  

Westerlands:

• Yew - Landed knights with little in the way of history.
  

Houses with Wood Heraldry:

• Charlton - Riverlands, arms include sprigs of mistletoe.
  
• Dunk & Brienne - Shooting star over an elm tree.
  
• Hoare - Iron Islands, former Kings, arms contained Pine, lands were Orkmont.
  
• The Liddle - Northern mountain clan, arms include pine cones and a line of pines.
  
• Rowan - Reach, old family, traces descent to Garth Greenhand. Arms contain a golden tree as their lands are Goldengrove.
  
• Ryger - Riverlands, arms feature a weeping willow. Loyal to house Tully.
  
• Tallhart - North, arms have three sentinels, Masters of Torrhen’s Square. First Men heritage.
  
• Wendwater - Crownlands, arms feature a green tree, red tree and bare tree, representing the seasons. No known members.
  
• Marbrand - Westerlands, seat is Ashemark and arms feature a burning tree.
  
• Mollen - North, arms feature a pine capped in snow.
  
• Stane - Skagos, arms feature a driftwood tree.
  

At this point, I don't think there is enough correlation evident to really tie together these houses. I believe in general there is a reflection of a wood-infused house being older, considering the demise of forests south of the Neck, but I don’t see much binding them in any substantial, foreboding way.

Great list, thanks! I think the three instances of feuding families - the Blackwoods vs. the Brackens, the Yronwoods vs. the Martells, and the Oakhearts vs. the Daynes - might be metaphors for the feud that exists between the established old guard (the "woods") and the invading newcomers (invasive species, if you will). Maybe these three feuds are a hint from GRRM to let us know that the battle is ongoing?

[Uncat]

Good Q - and while we are on the subject - just realised we keep talking about the Nights King as a man that had to be over-thrown by his younger brother at Winterfell... but didn't he lose his soul to a female Other? it wasn't that he was evil... just that he had no fear... what happened to the woman? Would he be punished with death if he himself was enslaved? - or punished in the way the deserters were punished? As in... "it wasn't really your fault but you were given a job to do... now we're going to bury you beneath the Wall and you can act as a door..?" - as an example... and i was just noting some descriptions of the word 'Fell' - in the context of Winterfell... instead of meaning 'evil-winter' - it seems to stem from the nordic word for 'Mountain' - or more interestingly 'Land that rises above the trees' .. just something extra to ponder if it's not already been done...

...and i can't help but think with Sansa - that while Winterfell is her home... what would the Eeryie look like in deep Winter? What if Sansa is forced to return to the Eeryie? It would be a formidable castle to assault... it has a weirwood moon-door and a weirwood throne in there... the sky cells are so that the gods can look in and judge the captives... makes me think the story is not quite done there yet - despite the castle being abandoned... would this make a good seat for a Winter-queen?

Yepp. When she last looks back, the Eyrie is described as an Ica Castle, all white in white.

@Black Crow

I see, where you are getting. But then it's not Andara that was entered by the cold, but her mother. Winter had entered her and Andara was the outcome.

Though I was thinking the same thing. Cersei has Sansas connection to the North and the Winter severed by pressing Ned to kill the wolf. Now Winter has her back. Maybe she'll get a nice icy Sidhe instead of the wolf.

And just now, that I'm writing it: Lady has to die. Or rather the lady has to, in order to let the girl grow into the ice queen (or what ever she will become). Kill the boy, Jon Snow, to make place for the man.

Maybe it wasn't so much about getting her wolfless as a foreshadowing of her own death. But it rathers is a great storytellig trick.

For whatever GRRM has in mind for Sanda, the wolf was in the way. He could not have written those King's Landing and Vale chapter with the wolf around.

So he has to get rid of the wolf and turns it into a great forshadowing for all that Sansa will go through from this point on. Her dreams get destroyed, her home, too. She will be without friends. And the first incidend on this track is the death of Lady as a forshadowing of why she survives: because she lets the lady die allthewhile the woman from the North will rise harder and stronger. Ha, gotcha, Mr. Martin!

[hotweaselsoup]

Possibly, possibly, but having been alerted to that scene with something odd happening to Sansa, I'm still inclined to go with a re-run of Adara in the Ice Dragon; able to commune with Ice because she (magically) has Winter inside her. GRRM has warned we're going to see more magic and having seen a fair bit of Fire magic in the books so far I think we're due to see a lot more Ice magic and perhaps learn that the Starks were called Kings of Winter because they had Winter inside them.

I'll buy that. Although I do think that there is a science to the magic, if that makes any sense. It's enough that Winter enters fetal Adara in the fairy tale that is The Ice Dragon, but I feel like there is more of an apparatus underpinning the magic in ASoIaF. The Kings of Winter had Winter inside them, but I guess I wonder how it got there in the first place :lol:

[DragonSpawn]

@Uncat - you make a lot of sense. Theres something else weird about Sansa that alludes to a different path.. All the children seem to have ended up in old god related locations... Guided by the old gods... Even arya given the history of braavos and the faceless men... But while sansa appeared to be getting support from the old gods (seeking help in the godswood) ... It was LF behind it the whole time. The Eeryie also has no godswood. While i dont think she is the great other... (I believe the old gods are trying to help her when they can) i think winter is an alternative magical force that is helping her...

Talking of going awol with theories... Thinking about the nordic meaning of 'fell' .. "above the trees" ... It could be a simple visual reference to Winterfell and therefore not worth discussion but we also know the old gods have these rules which seem honourable enough... And we know he starks are honourable to the point of stupidity... Is it possible that the Starks (sidhe) and Winter are perceived to be "above the trees" and that its actually the old ods appealing for winter to help?

[Tyryan Lannister]

So trying to piece together the whole Sansa thing:

She now has/has started down the road to having winter inside her. If there is an ice dragon, then she would be a good possibility to be the rider, for she has winter inside her. And if she does get an ice dragon, then keeping the Eyrie as her seat during winter would be no problem (cause what easier way to get to the Eyrie than flying?)

ETA: also, if all those related to the Arryns by blood were to die, wouldn't Sansa be next in line to succeeding the seat of her aunt's husband (keeping in mind that the world thinks Bran and Rickon are dead)

[Ser Leftwich]

OT At this rate, we will overtake the number of the R+L=J v.?? thread!

[Black Crow]

OT At this rate, we will overtake the number of the R+L=J v.?? thread!

It had occurred to me...

[Black Crow]

So trying to piece together the whole Sansa thing:

She now has/has started down the road to having winter inside her. If there is an ice dragon, then she would be a good possibility to be the rider, for she has winter inside her. And if she does get an ice dragon, then keeping the Eyrie as her seat during winter would be no problem (cause what easier way to get

I'm in two minds about this. There seems no doubt that the Ice Dragon story is significant, not least due to the number of times its been referenced in Ice and Fire, especially in ADwD. I'm not convinced though that there will be an actual Ice Dragon (leaving aside the thought that if R+L really does = J then he is the Ice Dragon), but rather that we'll see the scenario played out differently with Winter inside Jon and Sansa at the very least allowing them to get up close and personal with the Sidhe rather than a dragon - same idea, different players.

On the other hand I have a recollection that the Arryns got the Eyrie because one of them flew up there on a giant hawk to battle the King of the Vale.

ETA: spelling

[Uncat]

Edit: this referes to an earlier post b Dragon Spawn

Yepp Sansa takes a road apart. It is somehow telling, that GRRM even separated her from her Siblings, when he split AFFC in two volumes (ADWD being volume two).

[StannisMustLive]

Could it be that Joramun's horn might bring the Hammer of the Waters down on the Wall, breaking it to pieces? The Hammer has allegedly been brought down on Westeros twice, once on the Arm of Dorne and once on the Neck.

I find the role of the Ironborn really intriguing when it comes to this second Hammer of the Waters, so I wonder if it didn't happen rather recently. We know that the "Others", whoever/whatever they were, hated "iron" AND fire. The fact that Old Nan is so definite about the Andal and Rhoynar coming to Westeros much later reeks of some sort of indoctrination, as if a myth had been tinkered with before she herself heard the story for the first time. Anyway, the ironborn are a First Men tribe associated with iron when the first First Men were associated with bronze. Why? Old Nan says the "Others" hated iron and fire, she doesn't say they fear them. We know that the ironborn trace their ancestry back to some Grey King whose seat on Old Wyk (Nagga's Hill) has been swept into the sea. We know that Pyke has been shattered into several parts. Their god is the Drowned God. And then we have the Goodbrothers on Great Wyk: a black-and-gold warhorn on red as their symbol, and ... dun-dun-dun ... their seat at "Hammerhorn" amidst the Hardstone Hills, a formidable six leagues inland from the sea. A horn to bring the Hammer of the Waters down on Westeros?

We learn from Catelyn in ACOK that the CotF once called upon their gods from Moat Cailin's Children's Tower to bring down the hammer of the waters. I wonder how that went, to be honest. Moat Cailin is already built by the time of that Hammer, since the children are on top of the tower. But it says in Cat's chapter that the stone structure of Moat Cailin is sinking down into the bog? Why would the First Men build a stone castle on top of an existing bog? So what I could imagine is that the CotF, possibly allied with the King in the North, tried to break through the Neck 6-4-2000 years ago to prevent the Andals from advancing north, by bringing down the Hammer of the Waters. And they botched this up so badly that they not only blew up their own castle, but possibly also Oldstones, and they shattered the Iron Islands, which consequently fell to the Andals.

This scenario may explain how several stories got conflated into one myth about the "Others". According to Old Nan [quoting from memory here], the Long Night must have lasted quite a while before the "Others" even entered the scene. People just starved, they weren't attacked in addition. The White Walkers police the woods, possibly to make sure that everybody stays in their hollow hills while weirwoods grow back to size in constant moonlight. Maybe they have nothing to do with the rest of the story! Then the "Others" come, who must really hate anything iron- or fire-related, and they go against armies. And finally the Last Hero tries to find the CotF, not because he wants to put an end to winter, but for territorial reasons, to regain the area that men have lost, and he seeks out the children because of their magic! There is a magic hammer in the making! I have no coherent theory to offer, and I still don't know who is on whose side, but I feel the Hammer of the Waters accounts are somehow relevant with regards to the Others of the past.

[The Spoony Bard]

Long time lurker, first time poster on the heresy threads. I've read a bit of the previous threads, although not all. I find the theories espoused here to be interesting, but I am having trouble reconciling the idea that the White Walkers were allied with some faction of man with Old Nan's story about the first appearance of the White Walkers.

I'll copy Old Nan's tale from Heresy 6:

“I could tell you the story about Brandon the Builder,” Old Nan said. “That was always your favorite.”

Thousands and thousands of years ago, Brandon the Builder had raised Winterfell, and some said the Wall. Bran knew the story, but it had never been his favorite. Maybe one of the other Brandons had liked that story. Sometimes Nan would talk to him as if he were her Brandon, the baby she had nursed all those years ago, and sometimes she confused him with his uncle Brandon, who was killed by the Mad King before Bran was even born. She had lived so long, Mother had told him once, that all the Brandon Starks had become one person in her head.

“That’s not my favorite,” he said. “My favorites were the scary ones.”

“Oh, my sweet summer child,” Old Nan said quietly, “what do you know of fear? Fear is for the winter, my little lord, when the snows fall a hundred feet deep and the ice wind comes howling out of the north. Fear is for the long night, when the sun hides its face for years at a time, and little children are born and live and die all in darkness while the direwolves grow gaunt and hungry, and the white walkers move through the woods.”

“You mean the Others,” Bran said querulously.

“The Others,” Old Nan agreed. “Thousands and thousands of years ago, a winter fell that was cold and hard and endless beyond all memory of man. There came a night that lasted a generation, and kings shivered and died in their castles even as the swineherds in their hovels. Women smothered their children rather than see them starve, and cried, and felt their tears freeze on their cheeks.” Her voice and her needles fell silent, and she glanced up at Bran with pale, filmy eyes and asked, “So, child. This is the sort of story you like?”

“Well,” Bran said reluctantly, “yes, only...

Old Nan nodded. “In that darkness, the Others came for the first time,” she said as her needles went click click click. “They were cold things, dead things, that hated iron and fire and the touch of the sun, and every creature with hot blood in its veins. They swept over holdfasts and cities and kingdoms, felled heroes and armies by the score, riding their pale dead horses and leading hosts of the slain. All the swords of men could not stay their advance, and even maidens and suckling babes found no pity in them. They hunted the maids through frozen forests, and fed their dead servants on the flesh of human children.”

Her voice had dropped very low, almost to a whisper, and Bran found himself leaning forward to listen.

“Now these were the days before the Andals came, and long before the women fled across the narrow sea from the cities of the Rhoyne, and the hundred kingdoms of those times were the kingdoms of the First Men, who had taken these lands from the children of the forest. Yet here and there in the fastness of the woods the children still lived in their wooden cities and hollow hills, and the faces in the trees kept watch. So as cold and death filled the earth, the last hero determined to seek out the children, in the hopes that their ancient magics could win back what the armies of men had lost. He set out into the dead lands with a sword, a horse, a dog, and a dozen companions. For years he searched, until he despaired of ever finding the children of the forest in their secret cities. One by one his friends died, and his horse, and finally even his dog, and his sword froze so hard the blade snapped when he tried to use it. And the Others smelled the hot blood in him, and came silent on his trail, stalking him with packs of pale white spiders big as hounds-”

The door opened with a bang, and Bran’s heart leapt up into his mouth in sudden fear, but it was only Maester Luwin, with Hodor looming in the stairway behind him.

Even assuming that the White Walkers would want to ally with humanity, or even a faction such as the Night King, the allied theory still doesn't address how humanity could survive the cold that is contemporaneous with the White Walkers. As Old Nan makes clear, the everlasting winter is just as bad, if not worse, as the army of White Walkers. I'm not sure what any faction of humanity would gain by ally with the White Walkers given that the cold kills indiscriminately.

Anyway, I just don't see the justification for concluding that some humans were allied with the White Walkers.

[Black Crow]

Anyway, I just don't see the justification for concluding that some humans were allied with the White Walkers.

A matter of timing really. The core thinking is that down came the Winter, lasting for a generation - which we've figured out in GRRM's world is 13 years. During that Winter the Sidhe came out to play, while the Singers, knowing them of old hunkered down in their burrows to wait for Spring. Men didn't do too well at first but eventually the Last Hero made contact with the Singers, who first saved him and then did something to rein back the Sidhe (nowhere is the ending of the Long Night explained). We have a strong suspicion it was a peace deal which confirmed the Sidhe overlordship of the realm of Ice, including a number of lost kingdoms of men, who became the Wildlings and the Thenns. The Wall marks the boundary between the realms and part of the price was the binding of the Starks to serve the Sidhe, which they did until the Nights King was overthrown. Now the Sidhe are re-establishing their hold on the Starks, as we've seen with the story of Bael the Bard and the blue roses signifying Jon's Sidhe blood.

[Black Crow]

Just a random thought that occurred to me on Othor and Jafer. There is a view, to which I subscribe, that the wights are raised more or less inadvertently by the Sidhe insofar as its not necessary to physically touch far less kiss the dead to raise them up again. Proximity seems to be enough.

Othor and Jafer were found in an inert state, we presume because it was daylight. This might be because all wights "sleep" in the day, or perhaps because the Sidhe who had been accompanying them had gone off to find somewhere dark and cool. Then, on the other side of the Wall, where supposedly the Sidhe magic doesn't run, the blue lights flick on again and bloody chaos ensues.

It was speculated way back whether this meant there was an "agent" on the warm side of the Wall, but this rather foundered on the absence of anybody remotely suspicious looking. However, if the Sidhe raise them up simply by being near them, what about Jon's suspected Sidhe blood?

[Black Crow]

And just another thought which occurred to me while I was writing #53. Someone on Heresy 15 asked why the Sidhe might want human servants and allies.

The answer's actually quite simple. If the Sidhe can's come out to play when its bright and sunny it must be very useful to have servants who can.

[The Spoony Bard]

A matter of timing really. The core thinking is that down came the Winter, lasting for a generation - which we've figured out in GRRM's world is 13 years. During that Winter the Sidhe came out to play, while the Singers, knowing them of old hunkered down in their burrows to wait for Spring. Men didn't do too well at first but eventually the Last Hero made contact with the Singers, who first saved him and then did something to rein back the Sidhe (nowhere is the ending of the Long Night explained). We have a strong suspicion it was a peace deal which confirmed the Sidhe overlordship of the realm of Ice, including a number of lost kingdoms of men, who became the Wildlings and the Thenns. The Wall marks the boundary between the realms and part of the price was the binding of the Starks to serve the Sidhe, which they did until the Nights King was overthrown. Now the Sidhe are re-establishing their hold on the Starks, as we've seen with the story of Bael the Bard and the blue roses signifying Jon's Sidhe blood.

What you are describing isn't an alliance, it's a peace treaty. I realize that it's a subtle distinction, perhaps, but it is important. It doesn't suggest continued interaction, but instead a formal decision to leave each other alone.

Think about Craster, he's sacrificing his sons to protect himself, not to gain the swords of the White Walkers.

[StannisMustLive]

Bran knew the story, but it had never been his favorite. Maybe one of the other Brandons had liked that story. Sometimes Nan would talk to him as if he were her Brandon, the baby she had nursed all those years ago, and sometimes she confused him with his uncle Brandon, who was killed by the Mad King before Bran was even born. She had lived so long, Mother had told him once, that all the Brandon Starks had become one person in her head.

...

Fear is for the long night, when the sun hides its face for years at a time, and little children are born and live and die all in darkness while the direwolves grow gaunt and hungry, and the white walkers move through the woods.”

“You mean the Others,” Bran said querulously.

“The Others,” Old Nan agreed. ...

Her voice and her needles fell silent, and she glanced up at Bran with pale, filmy eyes and asked, “So, child. This is the sort of story you like?”

“Well,” Bran said reluctantly, “yes, only...

Old Nan nodded. “In that darkness, the Others came for the first time,” she said as her needles went click click click. “They were cold things, dead things, that hated iron and fire and the touch of the sun, and every creature with hot blood in its veins....

Thanks for quoting the entire story. Let me just comment on the underlined bits:

1.) I think it's important that GRRM makes explicit note of the fact that all the Brandons Old Nan has known have become one person in her head. It is therefore implied that all the stories she has heard about "Others" fuse into one scenario in her head, too.

2.) Old Nan does not originally intend to talk about "Others". She talks explicitly about White Walkers. All we know about them at this point is that they walk through the woods. It is Brandon who insists on calling them Others, "querulently"! This is important, too, because it undermines the idea that Brandon is right about using the term for White Walkers. He comes across as a smartass who thinks he knows better than that old nasty woman, but who probably doesn't.

3.) Nan agrees to use Bran's term "Others" for convenience's sake, but what seems to happen is that she eventually gets confused. There is no evidence that the following stories about the Others are in any way about White Walkers. We still don't know if WW actually lead the wights. They don't even appear simultaneously iirc. Bran wants to hear stories about "Others", Nan tells him some stories she knows about what/who people call "Others". There are inconsistencies already in the tidbits we get. How can anyone know, for example, that the Others hate the touch of the sun when there is a long night going on?

4.) Her selection of stories is themed, that's stated explicitly. Bran asks for scary stories, so she serves him scary stories in with "Others" are mentioned. And we are none the wiser.

I don't suggest the Last Hero was allied with the WW, and I don't know if the WW are allied with the wights.

[Black Crow]

What you are describing isn't an alliance, it's a peace treaty. I realize that it's a subtle distinction, perhaps, but it is important. It doesn't suggest continued interaction, but instead a formal decision to leave each other alone.

Think about Craster, he's sacrificing his sons to protect himself, not to gain the swords of the White Walkers.

That is indeed what the Heresy is about, but the price of that peace is the binding of the Starks and the Crasters (and who knows who else) to the Sidhe

ETA: the Horn of Winter suggests that the arrangement wasn't/isn't entirely one-sided

[alienarea]

Could it be that Joramun's horn might bring the Hammer of the Waters down on the Wall, breaking it to pieces? The Hammer has allegedly been brought down on Westeros twice, once on the Arm of Dorne and once on the Neck.

I find the role of the Ironborn really intriguing when it comes to this second Hammer of the Waters, so I wonder if it didn't happen rather recently. We know that the "Others", whoever/whatever they were, hated "iron" AND fire. The fact that Old Nan is so definite about the Andal and Rhoynar coming to Westeros much later reeks of some sort of indoctrination, as if a myth had been tinkered with before she herself heard the story for the first time. Anyway, the ironborn are a First Men tribe associated with iron when the first First Men were associated with bronze. Why? Old Nan says the "Others" hated iron and fire, she doesn't say they fear them. We know that the ironborn trace their ancestry back to some Grey King whose seat on Old Wyk (Nagga's Hill) has been swept into the sea. We know that Pyke has been shattered into several parts. Their god is the Drowned God. And then we have the Goodbrothers on Great Wyk: a black-and-gold warhorn on red as their symbol, and ... dun-dun-dun ... their seat at "Hammerhorn" amidst the Hardstone Hills, a formidable six leagues inland from the sea. A horn to bring the Hammer of the Waters down on Westeros?

We learn from Catelyn in ACOK that the CotF once called upon their gods from Moat Cailin's Children's Tower to bring down the hammer of the waters. I wonder how that went, to be honest. Moat Cailin is already built by the time of that Hammer, since the children are on top of the tower. But it says in Cat's chapter that the stone structure of Moat Cailin is sinking down into the bog? Why would the First Men build a stone castle on top of an existing bog? So what I could imagine is that the CotF, possibly allied with the King in the North, tried to break through the Neck 6-4-2000 years ago to prevent the Andals from advancing north, by bringing down the Hammer of the Waters. And they botched this up so badly that they not only blew up their own castle, but possibly also Oldstones, and they shattered the Iron Islands, which consequently fell to the Andals.

This scenario may explain how several stories got conflated into one myth about the "Others". According to Old Nan [quoting from memory here], the Long Night must have lasted quite a while before the "Others" even entered the scene. People just starved, they weren't attacked in addition. The White Walkers police the woods, possibly to make sure that everybody stays in their hollow hills while weirwoods grow back to size in constant moonlight. Maybe they have nothing to do with the rest of the story! Then the "Others" come, who must really hate anything iron- or fire-related, and they go against armies. And finally the Last Hero tries to find the CotF, not because he wants to put an end to winter, but for territorial reasons, to regain the area that men have lost, and he seeks out the children because of their magic! There is a magic hammer in the making! I have no coherent theory to offer, and I still don't know who is on whose side, but I feel the Hammer of the Waters accounts are somehow relevant with regards to the Others of the past.

I can imagine the following scenario: the CotF jinx the Ironborn horn used to call the Kraken so it raises the hammer of the waters instead. But the CotF miscalculated and wrecked Moat Cailin as well. Ans some of their wood dancers had a change in molecular structure and became White Walkers.

[Uncat]

Sorry, had my reply attached to the wrong post :(

[Uncat]

Long time lurker, first time poster on the heresy threads. I've read a bit of the previous threads, although not all. I find the theories espoused here to be interesting, but I am having trouble reconciling the idea that the White Walkers were allied with some faction of man with Old Nan's story about the first appearance of the White Walkers.

I'll copy Old Nan's tale from Heresy 6:

“I could tell you the story about Brandon the Builder,” Old Nan said. “That was always your favorite.”

Thousands and thousands of years ago, Brandon the Builder had raised Winterfell, and some said the Wall. Bran knew the story, but it had never been his favorite. Maybe one of the other Brandons had liked that story. Sometimes Nan would talk to him as if he were her Brandon, the baby she had nursed all those years ago, and sometimes she confused him with his uncle Brandon, who was killed by the Mad King before Bran was even born. She had lived so long, Mother had told him once, that all the Brandon Starks had become one person in her head.

“That’s not my favorite,” he said. “My favorites were the scary ones.”

“Oh, my sweet summer child,” Old Nan said quietly, “what do you know of fear? Fear is for the winter, my little lord, when the snows fall a hundred feet deep and the ice wind comes howling out of the north. Fear is for the long night, when the sun hides its face for years at a time, and little children are born and live and die all in darkness while the direwolves grow gaunt and hungry, and the white walkers move through the woods.”

“You mean the Others,” Bran said querulously.

“The Others,” Old Nan agreed. “Thousands and thousands of years ago, a winter fell that was cold and hard and endless beyond all memory of man. There came a night that lasted a generation, and kings shivered and died in their castles even as the swineherds in their hovels. Women smothered their children rather than see them starve, and cried, and felt their tears freeze on their cheeks.” Her voice and her needles fell silent, and she glanced up at Bran with pale, filmy eyes and asked, “So, child. This is the sort of story you like?”

“Well,” Bran said reluctantly, “yes, only...

Old Nan nodded. “In that darkness, the Others came for the first time,” she said as her needles went click click click. “They were cold things, dead things, that hated iron and fire and the touch of the sun, and every creature with hot blood in its veins. They swept over holdfasts and cities and kingdoms, felled heroes and armies by the score, riding their pale dead horses and leading hosts of the slain. All the swords of men could not stay their advance, and even maidens and suckling babes found no pity in them. They hunted the maids through frozen forests, and fed their dead servants on the flesh of human children.”

Her voice had dropped very low, almost to a whisper, and Bran found himself leaning forward to listen.

“Now these were the days before the Andals came, and long before the women fled across the narrow sea from the cities of the Rhoyne, and the hundred kingdoms of those times were the kingdoms of the First Men, who had taken these lands from the children of the forest. Yet here and there in the fastness of the woods the children still lived in their wooden cities and hollow hills, and the faces in the trees kept watch. So as cold and death filled the earth, the last hero determined to seek out the children, in the hopes that their ancient magics could win back what the armies of men had lost. He set out into the dead lands with a sword, a horse, a dog, and a dozen companions. For years he searched, until he despaired of ever finding the children of the forest in their secret cities. One by one his friends died, and his horse, and finally even his dog, and his sword froze so hard the blade snapped when he tried to use it. And the Others smelled the hot blood in him, and came silent on his trail, stalking him with packs of pale white spiders big as hounds-”

The door opened with a bang, and Bran’s heart leapt up into his mouth in sudden fear, but it was only Maester Luwin, with Hodor looming in the stairway behind him.

Even assuming that the White Walkers would want to ally with humanity, or even a faction such as the Night King, the allied theory still doesn't address how humanity could survive the cold that is contemporaneous with the White Walkers. As Old Nan makes clear, the everlasting winter is just as bad, if not worse, as the army of White Walkers. I'm not sure what any faction of humanity would gain by ally with the White Walkers given that the cold kills indiscriminately.

Anyway, I just don't see the justification for concluding that some humans were allied with the White Walkers.

But is this the thing about humanity? There is always somebody who sees a gain in alliing with the bad guy.

And then, As I posted somehwere at the end of heresy 14 (I guess), its a matter of perspective. Imagine the tale some native american from Tenochtitlan would have to tell to his grandchildren about when the white Walkers came with their shiny armour and their blades cutting through every armor. He would tell them how they murdered women and children and brought the plague, how they ruined the capital of the world until not even the lake it was in was left. How they enslaved everybody who survived the first blow.

Nice guys, those conquistadores, or what? Who would want to allie with them. Yet Cortez was not alone in this. He had a lot of help from other native tribes. Because there is always a gain in alliing yourself with the big guys. For the Starks, that gain was to become Kings of Winter.

Remember: GRRM does not do god and bad, as he tells us. Only humans :)

Welcome to the Heresies, where the world is just as it is :cheers: