Heresy 16

[The Spoony Bard]

ETA: the Horn of Winter suggests that the arrangement wasn't/isn't entirely one-sided

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Horn of Winter theory as espoused by the heretics is that the Horn of Winter summons or invites the White Walkers. The idea was that the Night King, a Stark, possessed this until he was overthrown by his younger brother and Joramun. The Horn was then either taken in its entirety by Joramun or divided between Stark the younger and Joramun.

The problem that I see with this is the fact that the White Walkers travel with the cold that Old Nan warned Bran about. So if you summoned the White Walkers, you would necessarily cause your own destruction, in addition to destroying your enemies. That's why I have trouble with the idea that the White Walkers were allied with some portion of humanity.

[A Song of Hound and Wolves]

Speaking on behalf of lurkers transitioning into contributors, I'd like to point out that about 90% of the content on the boards (particularly in the General forum) is a heaping mass of intolerable drivel. I don't care who everyone's favorite badass is, I don't want to know what happens in WoW until I read it as a whole, I agree that r+l=j without having to eternally rehash the evidence and implications (that really couldn't have been settled in less than 200 posts?), I'm offended by the people who are offended by the books' gratuity, and I'm a bit alienated by the worshipers of the alter of Sansa (although I have come to appreciate her character a bit more upon re-reads). This leaves a curious reader like myself with few places to go for intellectual extraction of the series' various nebula and no patience to simply sit on my hands for the next five years waiting for the next issue. I feel quite fortunate to find this haven for thoughtful, considerate discussion and marvel at the array of multinational perspectives intermingling so harmoniously and only hope I can do my part to contribute to the conversation.

Reported for being off-topic.

...I kid!

Once that Dragon Spawn (was it you?) brought it up, I realized how much this reminds me of the catholic rythe of the communion. You get this symbolic, tastles "bread". For an outsider this is nothing to strange. For a true catholic, this is everything. In the catholic belives, this is the closest you will ever get to Christ while living. And even in the protestant churches (which tuned it down a little) it is still a very important symbol for accepting this faith, and all, that comes with it, as well as belonging to the community.

But GRRM would be going for the much more loaded up catholic version. Sansa finds herself on her knees like some time ago, the belivers would kneel befor the priest, who lays the hostia (the symbolic bread) on their tongue.

This is Sansa getting absolution for her falling from faith and the north (the sky clears up) and she is accepted once more into the community (she recives a snowflake as in the holy communion). This Snowflake is not just symbolic. It tasts of Winter and Winterfell, of everything, which is dear - or holy - to her. It changes her and makes her a true believer. And then she launches herself into building her Castle.

A snowflake may not make a blizzard. But it can be the first of a blizzard to come :)

just to clarify the Catholic belief on Communion: the host is not symbolic; it is the actual body and blood of Christ. And even the tiniest piece of a broken, consecrated host is Christ's body, and would serve to complete the reception of Communion.

I can't remember the timeline but is it possible that Bran sent the snow and memories to Sansa?

[Black Crow]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Horn of Winter theory as espoused by the heretics is that the Horn of Winter summons or invites the White Walkers. The idea was that the Night King, a Stark, possessed this until he was overthrown by his younger brother and Joramun. The Horn was then either taken in its entirety by Joramun or divided between Stark the younger and Joramun.

The problem that I see with this is the fact that the White Walkers travel with the cold that Old Nan warned Bran about. So if you summoned the White Walkers, you would necessarily cause your own destruction, in addition to destroying your enemies. That's why I have trouble with the idea that the White Walkers were allied with some portion of humanity.

Not if you have Winter inside you, as Adara did

[The Spoony Bard]

But is this the thing about humanity? There is always somebody who sees a gain in alliing with the bad guy.

And then, As I posted somehwere at the end of heresy 14 (I guess), its a matter of perspective. Imagine the tale some native american from Tenochtitlan would have to tell to his grandchildren about when the white Walkers came with their shiny armour and their blades cutting through every armor. He would tell them how they murdered women and children and brought the plague, how they ruined the capital of the world until not even the lake it was in was left. How they enslaved everybody who survived the first blow.

Nice guys, those conquistadores, or what? Who would want to allie with them. Yet Cortez was not alone in this. He had a lot of help from other native tribes. Because there is always a gain in alliing yourself with the big guys. For the Starks, that gain was to become Kings of Winter.

Remember: GRRM does not do god and bad, as he tells us. Only humans :)

Welcome to the Heresies, where the world is just as it is :cheers:

But the White Walkers are not humans, they're something different, magical. The invading Europeans may have brought death and destruction, but they didn't bring everlasting winter that would destroy everything. That's why I have diffculty of accepting an alliance because winter does not differentiate between friend and foe.

[Uncat]

And just another thought which occurred to me while I was writing #53. Someone on Heresy 15 asked why the Sidhe might want human servants and allies.

The answer's actually quite simple. If the Sidhe can's come out to play when its bright and sunny it must be very useful to have servants who can.

That is what I still think what the basic deal was. The Starks run the place on both sides of the Wall during summer and for this they get to stay Kings during Winter, too, as far as the Sidhe were concerned. They just had to keep the humans in line and mostly on the warm side of the Wall, so that the Sidhe would not need to bother with them coming North again.

[Uncat]

But the White Walkers are not humans, they're something different, magical. The invading Europeans may have brought death and destruction, but they didn't bring everlasting winter that would destroy everything. That's why I have diffculty of accepting an alliance because winter does not differentiate between friend and foe.

Well, I guess the peoples who suffered that death and destruction would say: where is the difference. And remeber, in this theory it is not humanity, which treatin with the WW but a single man. And after all he succeeds. The WW leave for good. So he's the hero. And the hero gets to be King doesn't he? And the WW never came back to put up a second long night. So everybody seems to be happy. :)

Edit: Now that I reread it, it sounds really snapy. Not my intention, realy.

[The Spoony Bard]

Well, I guess the peoples who suffered that death and destruction would say: where is the difference. And remeber, in this theory it is not humanity, which treatin with the WW but a single man. And after all he succeeds. The WW leave for good. So he's the hero. And the hero gets to be King doesn't he? And the WW never came back to put up a second long night. So everybody seems to be happy. :)

Edit: Now that I reread it, it sounds really snapy. Not my intention, realy.

If that's the terms of the alliance: human sacrifices and few human incursions in the far North for the Others, Winter protection and kingship for the Starks, then the White Walkers became disappointed after the fall of the Night King. He was sacrificing to the Others, according to Old Nan, and he was overthrown and that practice was stopped. So why didn't the White Walkers attack then? The terms of the alliance had been broken, especially if you believe that the Night's Watch is an Andal crusader organization.

Honestly, I'm not trying to be willfully stubborn, I would love the idea of the Starks levelling destruction against their enemies. I'm just having difficulty connecting the dots here.

[Black Crow]

If that's the terms of the alliance: human sacrifices and few human incursions in the far North for the Others, Winter protection and kingship for the Starks, then the White Walkers became disappointed after the fall of the Night King. He was sacrificing to the Others, according to Old Nan, and he was overthrown and that practice was stopped. So why didn't the White Walkers attack then? The terms of the alliance had been broken, especially if you believe that the Night's Watch is an Andal crusader organization.

The short answer is that it wasn't Winter, which is why blowing the Horn of Winter didn't work. Now Winter is coming again, the Sidhe are on the move and Mance Rayder is looking for the Horn.

As to the "sacrificing" by the way, as heretics we're pretty confident it was the same "sacrifice" Craster was engaged it, not killing his sons but giving them up as changelings.

[The Spoony Bard]

Right, I gathered that the sacrifices of the Night's King were the same as Craster's. Those sacrifices also stopped. So why was nothing done when the alliance was broken?

[The Spoony Bard]

The short answer is that it wasn't Winter, which is why blowing the Horn of Winter didn't work. Now Winter is coming again, the Sidhe are on the move and Mance Rayder is looking for the Horn.

When you say it's not Winter, are you referring to a special form of winter, because the prologue in AGoT was in the summer?

[Black Crow]

As I said, it wasn't a proper Winter at the time, the Long Night had ended and Summer was in the ascendancy. Its only now with the return of real Winter that the Sidhe can return in force - those seen in the AGoT prologue were just the regular rangers, Craster's changeling sons rather than the real Sidhe.

[FanTasy]

Just some thoughts about the white walkers.

Fire consumes, cold preserves, according to Maester Aemon.

If there was a union between the Starks and the white walkers, and it was a union by blood (as the Nights King with his pale blue-eyed queen), then is it possible that some humanity is preserved within the white walkers?

Dany's stillborn child seemed to be a mixture between human DNA and something else: 'fire' and 'blood'. The child is described as a dragon, with a tail and leathery wings.

Maybe there have been counterparts on the other side of the spectrum, the white walkers as the product of an union between man and the essence of winter, 'ice' and 'blood'.

We have discussed earlier (way, way back) that there seem to be no vast numbers of white walkers, unless great masses are hiding somewhere far up north. If human flesh and blood is necessary to 'make' white walkers and they were dependent on the boys Craster could 'produce' there can't be vast numbers of them.

That makes it understandable that they are herding the wights and use them as a weapon.

[StannisMustLive]

If there was a union between the Starks and the white walkers, and it was a union by blood (as the Nights King with his pale blue-eyed queen), then is it possible that some humanity is preserved within the white walkers?

Well, they do have a proper language... Given that the NW has a book on the language of the CotF, and that wildlings know the Old Tongue, it would be easy to test if they have any "human" affiliation, i.e. are derived from something human.

[nanother]

I wonder about this 'Last Hero' and 'Age of Heroes' - what does 'hero' mean in this context? The official order of events was: AoH, Long Night and coming of the Others, 'defeat' of the Others by LH, a long interval in which the 7 kingdoms were formed, then the coming of the Andals. So what changed after the LN, that explain the LH being last? Seeing that the method of recording history only changed with the Andals and writing, it seems strange that the line of heroes and other legendary figures would stop after the LN...

It seems that during the AoH there was a closer interaction between the Children and FM, but that's slightly contradicted by the LH taking years to find the Children (BTW, I find it odd that he lasted that long with the Others around). And in any case, how does that affect people being heroes? Did the building of the Wall cause a drop in the general danger and magic levels?

It could be simply that the greater centralization and solidifying feudal structure leaves less room for legendary heroes, but I'd think it's more of a gradual process.

Anyway, I'm not sure any of this is significant at all. It just keeps bugging me.

[Tyryan Lannister]

I wonder about this 'Last Hero' and 'Age of Heroes' - what does 'hero' mean in this context? The official order of events was: AoH, Long Night and coming of the Others, 'defeat' of the Others by LH, a long interval in which the 7 kingdoms were formed, then the coming of the Andals. So what changed after the LN, that explain the LH being last? Seeing that the method of recording history only changed with the Andals and writing, it seems strange that the line of heroes and other legendary figures would stop after the LN...

It seems that during the AoH there was a closer interaction between the Children and FM, but that's slightly contradicted by the LH taking years to find the Children (BTW, I find it odd that he lasted that long with the Others around). And in any case, how does that affect people being heroes? Did the building of the Wall cause a drop in the general danger and magic levels?

It could be simply that the greater centralization and solidifying feudal structure leaves less room for legendary heroes, but I'd think it's more of a gradual process.

Anyway, I'm not sure any of this is significant at all. It just keeps bugging me.

What you have described basically is the reason for the heresy of a historical cover up. Before the event causing the cover up (the Last Hero) is this mystical age of huge magics and heroes; after is regular ordinary stuff. The heretical view is that the event of the cover up is the fall of the Night's King and his replacement by his brother and the shift from Kings of Winter to Kings in the North.

Remember: history is written by the victors. However, given the commonplace nature of oral histories in these societies, completely rewriting the history of the First Men in the North would not have been possible. So instead the Kings in the North successfully attempted to rewrite history by having all the historical events from before the fall of the Night's King be these mystical, magical, heroic tales from an age now gone, when in fact they were just the same as before, just with a different king and a semi-different politico-religious structure.

[7V3N]

Mistakenly posted this in Heresy 15:

I didn't catch this on my first read of ACOK-

The night Jojen and Bran arrive, they go to the godswood and see the direwolves. Jojen can sense the power coming from Summer, but knows Summer will not harm him. He touches Summer and Bran (in his wolf dream) falls and falls. Bran also recalls in that chapter that Howland Reed saved Ned from the Sword of the Morning, while also recalling that the crannogmen are not warriors of Westeros. They are more of guerrillas.

The Pledge:

Jojen swears by earth and water. Meera swears by bronze and iron. Then they both swear by ice and fire. I think their words are specific to their roles for a reason. Jojen obviously representing nature in some fashion, Meera representing tools and survival.

Godswood:

It seems to me that Jojen could sense Bran inside Summer, and then somehow pushed Bran out of him. This is something we have never seen even later in the series. How is it that a (roughly) 13 year old is able to show off some of the greatest warg-ish ability we have seen without extensive training from an expert (Howland?)? But if Howland was to train him, why not Meera as well?

Tower of Joy:

Obvious question: How the hell was a little guy like Howland able to save Ned's life?

There is no way in my mind that he did it through "bronze and iron" and more likely did it with some sort of magic. Perhaps this is why Ned was sad. Perhaps because the whole ToJ scene reminds him of Lyanna's death, maybe. Certainly not just because Dayne died. But because something perhaps dark or dishonorable happened, some sort of magic Ned was not aware of until he stared death in the eyes and was saved by Howland. Maybe Howland warged Dayne for a brief second?

Not sure where all of this is going, but there is much more to this whole thing and I thought this would bring up some good thinking points.

[Katerrinah]

Tower of Joy:

Obvious question: How the hell was a little guy like Howland able to save Ned's life?

There is no way in my mind that he did it through "bronze and iron" and more likely did it with some sort of magic. Perhaps this is why Ned was sad. Perhaps because the whole ToJ scene reminds him of Lyanna's death, maybe. Certainly not just because Dayne died. But because something perhaps dark or dishonorable happened, some sort of magic Ned was not aware of until he stared death in the eyes and was saved by Howland. Maybe Howland warged Dayne for a brief second?

Not sure where all of this is going, but there is much more to this whole thing and I thought this would bring up some good thinking points.

*stops lurking for a moment*

I actually find this much more interesting than most of the theories as to how Howland saved Ned at the ToJ.

*goes back to lurking.

[Striker83]

Does it anywhere said what happend to th Night King? Was he killed, captured, or when defeated he retreated behind the wall into the land of always winter?

Even if he was killed maybe he already had children with the blue eyed woman and they escaped. So the Night's Watch was created to watch their movements in case they might try to return, or to stop any of The Others or their emissaries from corrupting other men like they did with the Night King.

This is not realeted to the topic, but I don't know with what topic should go.

Is something that Jon said while talking about stars with Ygritte, here is the quote:

"he was old friends with the Ice Dragon, the Shadowcat, the Moonmaid, and the Sword of the Morning."

I just found interesting that his favorite stars, at least that's how interpreted, are related to him so closely. If he is the son of Lyanna and Raeghar then he is the Ice dragon, the Shadowcat is Arya, the Moonmaid is Sansa and the last Sword of the Morning died protecting him. Maybe is a coincidence or foreshadowing.

[WintersKing]

Somewhat OT here, but I respect everyone's intellectual input here. So I've decided to ask this awesome thread what you think.

This isn't really a theory or anything, just a question. Not only am I bothered by none of the Starks bannerman not knowing or suggesting they know Arya is a fake (I know this has been speculated here), but I'm also vexed that Mance doesn't know. IIRC when he meets Jon he tells him he knows who he is, for he was at Winterfell when Robert visited. I don't have the books, but I vaguely remember him telling Jon he studied him. So why wouldn't Mance study Ned's other children? I realize it's been awhile since he saw them last, but one would wager that an attentive person like Mance might recognize that something is off about her. Or maybe he didn't get a good look? I don't know.

Sorry if this has been brought up before. I jumped into these threads as a lurker at the 10th reincarnation.

[7V3N]

This is not realeted to the topic, but I don't know with what topic should go.

Is something that Jon said while talking about stars with Ygritte, here is the quote:

"he was old friends with the Ice Dragon, the Shadowcat, the Moonmaid, and the Sword of the Morning."

I just found interesting that his favorite stars, at least that's how interpreted, are related to him so closely. If he is the son of Lyanna and Raeghar then he is the Ice dragon, the Shadowcat is Arya, the Moonmaid is Sansa and the last Sword of the Morning died protecting him. Maybe is a coincidence or foreshadowing.

Or perhaps the shadowcat is Tyrion? GRRM for some reason loves to bring up Tyrion's shadowcat cloak that he got in the Mountains of the Moon. I agree with the rest of your connections, though maybe there is more to the Sword of the Morning one.

Somewhat OT here, but I respect everyone's intellectual input here. So I've decided to ask this awesome thread what you think.

This isn't really a theory or anything, just a question. Not only am I bothered by none of the Starks bannerman not knowing or suggesting they know Arya is a fake (I know this has been speculated here), but I'm also vexed that Mance doesn't know. IIRC when he meets Jon he tells him he knows who he is, for he was at Winterfell when Robert visited. I don't have the books, but I vaguely remember him telling Jon he studied him. So why wouldn't Mance study Ned's other children? I realize it's been awhile since he saw them last, but one would wager that an attentive person like Mance might recognize that something is off about her. Or maybe he didn't get a good look? I don't know.

I expect it was (as many hear believe) because Mance had a bigger issue on his mind, such as the Winterfell crypts. Also, I doubt he would take interest in a 10(?) year old girl, who probably would not stand at as anything special. If he saw her, she probably didn't strike him as a Lady of Winterfell, so he probably disregarded her on sight (if he did see her). And lastly (though my memory is fuzzy), didn't Arya get put to bed early for her childish behavior?

The one bastard and outcast of the Stark family would (I think) be more likely to catch the eye, especially since he has such strong Stark features. Plus, Mance could have been looking for Jon (up for debate, but in the realm of possibility).