From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa VII

[A...]

Elizabeth's marriage prospects weren't impacted by Tom Seymour's creepiness but her desire to not be "mastered" was. She was receiving offers well into her forties I believe and refused to bow down to the will of her councillors.

If Sansa were to be Queen, I'd like her to be one in her own right and not make Dany's mistake in Dance.

I didn't mean 'prospects' as in nobody wanted to marry her, but rather that she might have somehow been disillusioned when it came to men and didn't want to marry because of the emotional impact of Seymour's advances.

But then again I'm no Elizabethan scholar.

[Winter's Knight]

I didn't mean 'prospects' as in nobody wanted to marry her, but rather that she might have somehow been disillusioned when it came to men and didn't want to marry because of the emotional impact of Seymour's advances.

But then again I'm no Elizabethan scholar.

She's already disillusioned though, isn't she? :P

[A...]

I have to say you are right...Or, perhaps, we`ll have girl-on-girl action with Sansa and Myranda... :drool:

Thank goodness both of them are from Westeros, otherwise a recurrence of the Myrish Swamp might have been feared. Having said that I shudder to think what new terminology GRRM might devise for the Veil...

Hopefully Randa will be too preoccupied with wooing LF to enter into experimentation with Sansa, but with that crazy girl you never know what to expect.

[A...]

She's already disillusioned though, isn't she? :P

True. I really backed myself into a corner with that one, ha ha. :rolleyes:

[Lyanna Stark]

It's also telling that both here and in the next chapter, while she was gathering courage to ask Joffrey to spare Ned's life, she again thought "It's clear that in this respect it was Cat who was her role model, at least at this point.

This is a good point and another example of how strongly Cat has influenced Sansa. It's interesting as well that she wants to be a lady like Cersei but strong like her mother. It further underlines that Cat was a strong, almost fierce presence. It also confirms Jaime's view that Lysa was sweet and shy but Cat was more fiery and far more interesting (although he ultimately preferred the Blackfish, hah).

Can you remember Tyrion thinking that Sansa is actually looking at Margaery with some envy and that he can`t believe that she is so stupid after everything Joffrey has done to her. Lyanna, you are right, but Sansa was feeling envious here.

We have to remember here we are seeing this from Tyrion's POV, and Tyrion has above all, no idea how Sansa thinks. He is really amazingly clueless since Sansa keeps everything so well under wraps. We see Sansa thinking earlier of how sorry she feels for Margaery, so I think her staring at Margaery may be her feeling sorry for her having to marry Joffrey and possibly also be thankful that it is not her. Tyrion interprets this as Sansa being envious because he really doesn't know how Sansa operates, and he, like everyone else in Kings Landing, thinks that Sansa is shallow and only like gallant knights and lemoncakes. Only the readers know, at this point, that there is more to Sansa than that.

Regarding Sansa as a virgin Queen, I think this would be quite tragic for someone who has lost her entire family and who longs for that type of life her parents had. A strong theme in the novels is loneliness and how it affects people. We see how Dany and Jon are both showing serious signs of depression in ADWD because they distance themselves so hard from people and try to rule alone. To rule is to truly BE alone, unless you have someone you can really share it with, and that is extremely unusual. It is also a rather harsh destiny, as both Jon and Dany have found out.

[Le.Chevalier.D'Eon]

Ok, we have come to the most obvious question. Will Sansa end up being Queen, or not? Two very simple answers, quite a lot of story behind them. I was convinced by Lyanna that Sansa`s path is somewhat different now, and she doesn`t want to become a Queen due to everything she saw and lived. But, let us all go back to the Purple Wedding and Sept of Baelor. Can you remember Tyrion thinking that Sansa is actually looking at Margaery with some envy and that he can`t believe that she is so stupid after everything Joffrey has done to her. Lyanna, you are right, but Sansa was feeling envious here. Maybe it was because it`s marriage, maybe not of love, but illusion of true happinnes exists. Or perhaps, she is envying Margaery on becoming the Queen(Later, she pitys her for marring Tommen). Sansa wants power in some form, she is feeling quite good in being the one ordering others (especially in Vale, she does what she has to). She isn`t shallow, this isn`t Sansa from begining, but "some things never change" (a little bit of Matrix, LOL)...At the end, Sansa will have to decide what to do. LF`s plans of killing Robert Arryn won`t work because of her...Sansa isn`t going to stay in the Vale, at the wnd her path will be different...and I see her as a Queen. At last, if she won`t make an effort, LF certainly will...

P.S. As for the virginity, I would like to see her like Queen Elizabeth I being " married to her kingdom"

I am prejudiced against Sansa, but in my view, the best outcome for her and the people around her, is for her to end up being a Silent Sister.

[Lyanna Stark]

Anyways back to Sansa and her virginity - the main problem here is TYRION, since there is no way she can ever get an annulment if the maesters don't proclaim her a virgin - and I really don't want her to stay married to Tyrion. So unless Tyrion dies, I see this as a kind of impasse... Or maybe a plot shield/armour from GRRM?

Just a short comment here on the "virginity" thing. I do believe that Margaery "failed" the test, no?There's also the question if the Septas can actually see if a girl is a virgin by staring at her bits for a while. Is this really a tried and tested method? I doubt it.

There's also the fact that Margaery was accused of adultery. Sansa is not accused of adultery. In fact, should both Sansa and Tyrion eventually show up and both swear to the Seven that the marriage was not consummated and should be put aside, I imagine that it would be, without any odd examinations of Sansa. This seems to be something for the accused. Although the Faith has become more and more extreme, so we don't really know what they are up to.

I don't know how to set aside a marriage in the North, since they don't really seem to have any particular priesthood, although I have seen some discussion about Tormund and Val working as intermediates for the Old Gods. It's an open question though whether it is possible to set aside a marriage done in the light of the Seven with claiming the Old Gods higher authority.

The wild card is if Littlefinger should find "Tysha" somewhere and she claims that Tyrion's first marriage was never properly put aside since it seems that Tywin basically just dismissed it with the Septon being drunk and Tysha being sent away and that was that. But where do whores go? Well, to Littlefinger's brothels is probably the answer.

I am prejudiced against Sansa, but in my view, the best outcome for her and the people around her, is for her to end up being a Silent Sister.

No offence to you, but please respect that this is a thread devoted to serious discussion about Sansa. If you contribution will be one liners about how you want Sansa to join the Silent sisters, then please consider posting that somewhere else since it does not contribute to the discussion.

[A...]

Just a short comment here on the "virginity" thing. I do believe that Margaery "failed" the test, no?There's also the question if the Septas can actually see if a girl is a virgin by staring at her bits for a while. Is this really a tried and tested method? I doubt it.

I think the maesters probably get involved in the poking and prodding somewhere down the line what with their medical knowledge?

There's also the fact that Margaery was accused of adultery. Sansa is not accused of adultery. In fact, should both Sansa and Tyrion eventually show up and both swear to the Seven that the marriage was not consummated and should be put aside, I imagine that it would be, without any odd examinations of Sansa. This seems to be something for the accused. Although the Faith has become more and more extreme, so we don't really know what they are up to.

I don't know how to set aside a marriage in the North, since they don't really seem to have any particular priesthood, although I have seen some discussion about Tormund and Val working as intermediates for the Old Gods. It's an open question though whether it is possible to set aside a marriage done in the light of the Seven with claiming the Old Gods higher authority.

The Faith right now are becoming increasingly scary and fanatical, but yes, I agree if both were to swear then the marriage would probably not be looked into - the question is - would Tyrion swear? Maybe if he were presented with Rickon and believed this nullified his claim to Winterfell... Providing, of course, that Tyrion's coming out of hiding didn't mean death on site. As for the Old Gods, they don't have much to say in the matter of this marriage, since it was done in the Light of the Seven, but as a general point of inquiry it is interesting.

The wild card is if Littlefinger should find "Tysha" somewhere and she claims that Tyrion's first marriage was never properly put aside since it seems that Tywin basically just dismissed it with the Septon being drunk and Tysha being sent away and that was that. But where do whores go? Well, to Littlefinger's brothels is probably the answer.

This is a very probable solution providing, of course, LF manages to find someone good enough at acting her part to fool Tyrion himself - no small task considering Tysha was his one true love or whatever. Oh and also providing she looks convincing enough not to arouse Jaime's suspicion, since he would be the most likely candidate to uncover a fake, aside from Tyrion himself. Having said all that, Tyrion does have a soft spot for whores, and after fifteen years or so I'm thinking he might have forgotten a lot, so I'm not ruling this theory out, not by a long shot.

[Lyanna Stark]

Kella cannot exactly be considered as a role model for Sansa, but her brief appearance does serve to illustrate an important theme in Sansa’s storyline: that of sexual and erotic agency. She might be lowborn and poor, but she has something that most highborn women are not privileged to enjoy: control of her own body and sexuality. Sansa has just spent her time in KL with those very things under threat of being forcefully stripped from her, and has once again found herself under the dubious protection of another man similarly interested in exploiting her for his own pleasure and profit. Kella lives a simple life on the Fingers, but it is an honest one, seemingly marked by honest consensual desire.

Interestingly, Sansa's arc has been full of women who are after sexual and erotic agency and how their view of that has clashed with Sansa's preconceived notions she had about "marriage = love and that's the end of it" she had when she left Winterfell.

Cersei, Kella, Lysa, Mya, Myranda, QoT/Margaery, Ellaria Sand and even her own mother (if we count the LF story). I don't think anyone else has had the same amount of variety of women who are, or were, after this same thing.

I wonder if Kella is the first time Sansa has encountered a woman who has lots of bastards and honestly doesn't care who the father is. It reflects Tyrion's comment to Jon about who his mother is "Some woman, no doubt". In this case that same answer can be made to LF's question of who the father is: "Some man" (and it doesn't matter much who it is). Even better, Kella seems perfectly happy with this and we even see LF rather approve of it (I keep telling you he is a rather bad patriarch, with "bad" in a good sense. ;) )

[Mortal Engines]

@Mortal Engines, since everybody else have wished you welcome, it would be rude of me not to the same. So welcome, and enjoy until someone like Lyanna dismisses all your ideas with perfect reasoning and accurate logic.

Thank you! :grouphug:

I'm well aware that I'm likely to be beaten logically and intellectually by many posters here, don't worry, I'm mentally prepared :thumbsup: .

Sansa is not envious on Margaery marrying Joffrey (good ridance to him). I am not saying Joffrey has anything with her being envious. I like the things you said. Also for me, she wass envious because Margaery hadn’t suffered like her and that Margaery was brave enough to proceed with the wedding despite her warning.

I get that you didn't think she was envious of Margaery marrying Joffrey but you seem to say that she was envious of Margaery becoming Queen, for the reasons I said before, I didn't think this was the case.

I agree that she's envious that Margaery hasn't suffered like her but I don't think she's envious of Margaery's bravery, she admires it but if she was envious of it then she would be marrying Joffrey herself. She pities Margaery if anything.

As for the fact, it`s Tyrion POV, I trust that Imp...can`t help about it...

It maybe Tyrion's POV but he knows next to nothing about Sansa, it's way he confused her seeming envy as being envious that Margaery is marrying Joffrey instead of her, which is obviously not the case. So while Tyrion is right that she may of been slightly envious (even this I somewhat doubt), he is certainly not right on her reasons. Like I said, he knows little of Sansa and what she's been through other than what he has seen himself.

Yes, this is true. One thing we see is that she's quite competent and confident when she's in a position of authority. She deftly handles the maester's questions, manages to get SR out of bed by playing to his needs, and keeps him from losing control on the journey down the mountain. Cersei has a way of offending those working for her, whilst Sansa is respectful of the differences in individuals and operates accordingly. It also helps that her essential character is compassionate and kind.

Agreed, which is why I don't think Sansa likes ordering people around, as the saying goes, the best leaders are the ones who don't want to lead. Whereas Cersei is the polar opposite, so desperate for power and leadership that she fails miserably at it because she's constantly looking for those opposing her leadership rather than trying to be kind to people in order to solidfy it.

Thanks :) Yes, I do think women like Kella, Ellaria and Mya Stone offer valuable portrayals of alternative lifestyles/options open to Sansa. She doesn't have to want to be a paramour like Ellaria or to be as sexually open as Kella in order to appreciate that these women have access to greater freedom and agency. It's really just about having the personal authority to achieve what makes you happy. I think Sansa really admires Mya Stone and the work she does in the Vale, and it underscores the lesson she has learnt from LF: that birthright and beauty can only go so far.

I doubt she'd ever be as sexually active as Ellaria or Kella for sure. For one thing, she's been confronted by too many people who want her sexually (Joffrey, LF, Tyrion etc.) to really seek out anyone in such a way. I think Sansa would definitely shy away from such behaviour but I can also see her never marrying (or even be with someone sexually) in order to gain the lifestyles these women have, minus the men. Anyway, I agree with what you said.

[Lyanna Stark]

This is a very probable solution providing, of course, LF manages to find someone good enough at acting her part to fool Tyrion himself - no small task considering Tysha was his one true love or whatever. Oh and also providing she looks convincing enough not to arouse Jaime's suspicion, since he would be the most likely candidate to uncover a fake, aside from Tyrion himself. Having said all that, Tyrion does have a soft spot for whores, and after fifteen years or so I'm thinking he might have forgotten a lot, so I'm not ruling this theory out, not by a long shot.

Tyrion wouldn't have to be present though. What Littlefinger needs is for someone who is "Tysha" to testify to the High Septon that the marriage was never annulled... :)

Tyrion is not needed for this. If the woman herself identifies herself as Tysha, well, with Tyrion's really bad reputation what with being a Lannister kinslayer and kingslayer and a proper sob story, who is going to say no? Perhaps LF can sweeten the deal for the Faith as well, since it seems the High Sparrow is not beyond being bartered with if there is something he really wants at the other end. And we already know he dislikes the Lannisters for beheading Ned on the stairs to the Sept of Baelor, and also for Cersei's transgressions, plus I am certain he has heard of Tommen being an abomination born of incest.

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

OK, here's me being crackpot, but I've given some thought to Sansa's destiny, and if she can't be queen, and wouldn't be happy being Lady of Something, and wouldn't be happy as Sansa the Maid for life either...

Perhaps she could revitalize the Westerosi economy and be the equivalent of a businesswoman? Let me explain. First of all, she's being sponsored/groomed/whatever by Littlefinger, who was Master of Coin. She was married to Tyrion, who also served as Master of Coin, and is linked with money several times in the text (most notably in ADWD where he is signing all those promissory notes). She's now in contact with Mya, who is the Westerosi equivalent of a businesswoman (she earns a good, independent livelihood by provisioning the Eyrie).

Littlefinger shows Sansa his home and says he is "king of sheepshit" (paraphrased). Sheep are useful! People eat mutton and lamb and wear wool. If Sansa puts two and two together, she could turn the Fingers into a sheep ranch and coin it in. Jon has an idea (somewhere) of bringing Myrish glassblowers (IIRC) to the North to provide a business base. And if she decides to be Alayne Stone forever, and inherits Petyr's property (as his only surviving child - who else would inherit, and would the Crown want the Fingers?) she could do a lot with it as far as, for instance, raising sheep is concerned. Raise sheep + sell wool and mutton = profit!

Arya notes that Sansa is good at everything except math - with the former Master of Coin mentoring her I think she is meant to get better at that. Westeros is going to need an economic boost pretty badly, and the Eastern countries look to be doing well as mercantile economies. Davos made himself Hand of the King due to his being able to provide Stannis with practical things like food and sail power.

This is my being crackpot but Sansa the Merchant might be a good path for her; she could have her autonomy, use her brains, and marry whom she chooses and have her family. And Westeros could really use someone like that - someone who could be useful on a practical level and not just parade around in flashy clothes.

BTW, my Septa Mordane post is forthcoming later this Sunday.

[Mladen]

We have to remember here we are seeing this from Tyrion's POV, and Tyrion has above all, no idea how Sansa thinks. He is really amazingly clueless since Sansa keeps everything so well under wraps. We see Sansa thinking earlier of how sorry she feels for Margaery, so I think her staring at Margaery may be her feeling sorry for her having to marry Joffrey and possibly also be thankful that it is not her. Tyrion interprets this as Sansa being envious because he really doesn't know how Sansa operates, and he, like everyone else in Kings Landing, thinks that Sansa is shallow and only like gallant knights and lemoncakes. Only the readers know, at this point, that there is more to Sansa than that.

Regarding Sansa as a virgin Queen, I think this would be quite tragic for someone who has lost her entire family and who longs for that type of life her parents had. A strong theme in the novels is loneliness and how it affects people. We see how Dany and Jon are both showing serious signs of depression in ADWD because they distance themselves so hard from people and try to rule alone. To rule is to truly BE alone, unless you have someone you can really share it with, and that is extremely unusual. It is also a rather harsh destiny, as both Jon and Dany have found out.

I agree on the first part. It was just Tyrion`s views. But, I noticed, no one sees complete picture of Sansa(that is why I think she`s more Stark than Arya. Just like North, wild, unknown, harsh, but still beautiful). No one at court, no one in Vale. I mean, by far, she is the mysterious characters, either because everyone dismisses her as being dumb or shallow. They shouldn`t count her off like that. About virgin Queen, I know that would be immensly tragic, and that`s why I thought for so long she would become a Queen(ready to bear the burden of ruling alongside her husband). And Lyanna, who said that about "to rule is to truly be alone", I can`t remember...

As for Faith, they are becoming extereme...actually too extreme...and they are the only authority with power to grant Sansa and Tyrion annulment. But, will they do so? No, unless greater authority orders them to do so. LF`s plans are actually quite clear for her right now. He wants Winterfell, but will he stop there? No, he will use Sansa the best way he can...And that`s the reason why I think she will be his doom one day...he will give her power to destroy him, and unfortunately for him, she will eventually use it.

[Mladen]

OK, here's me being crackpot, but I've given some thought to Sansa's destiny, and if she can't be queen, and wouldn't be happy being Lady of Something, and wouldn't be happy as Sansa the Maid for life either...

Perhaps she could revitalize the Westerosi economy and be the equivalent of a businesswoman? Let me explain. First of all, she's being sponsored/groomed/whatever by Littlefinger, who was Master of Coin. She was married to Tyrion, who also served as Master of Coin, and is linked with money several times in the text (most notably in ADWD where he is signing all those promissory notes). She's now in contact with Mya, who is the Westerosi equivalent of a businesswoman (she earns a good, independent livelihood by provisioning the Eyrie).

Littlefinger shows Sansa his home and says he is "king of sheepshit" (paraphrased). Sheep are useful! People eat mutton and lamb and wear wool. If Sansa puts two and two together, she could turn the Fingers into a sheep ranch and coin it in. Jon has an idea (somewhere) of bringing Myrish glassblowers (IIRC) to the North to provide a business base.

Arya notes that Sansa is good at everything except math - with the former Master of Coin mentoring her I think she is meant to get better at that. Westeros is going to need an economic boost pretty badly, and the Eastern countries look to be doing well as mercantile economies. Davos made himself Hand of the King due to his being able to provide Stannis with practical things like food and sail power.

This is my being crackpot but Sansa the Merchant might be a good path for her; she could have her autonomy, use her brains, and marry whom she chooses and have her family. And Westeros could really use someone like that - someone who could be useful on a practical level and not just parade around in flashy clothes.

BTW, my Septa Mordane post is forthcoming later this Sunday.

Not bad, but I don`t like it...In GOT, Arya mentioned that the only thing Sansa was bad were economics...No, Sansa`s power will come through her being Queen, LAdy of..., or face behind the throne, just like LF.

[Winter's Knight]

Not bad, but I don`t like it...In GOT, Arya mentioned that the only thing Sansa was bad were economics...No, Sansa`s power will come through her being Queen, LAdy of..., or face behind the throne, just like LF.

She was bad at sums-and that can be fixed with practice.

[Mladen]

Will anyone share with me post about family words(both Tully and Stark) and their influence on Sansa? Please, let me know...

[Lady Lea]

Just a short comment here on the "virginity" thing. I do believe that Margaery "failed" the test, no?There's also the question if the Septas can actually see if a girl is a virgin by staring at her bits for a while. Is this really a tried and tested method? I doubt it.

No, it definitely isn't a 100% certain method of checking for 'virginity'. A woman may have sex and still have her hymen look intact, and she might have never had sex and look like she's not a 'virgin'.

There's also the fact that Margaery was accused of adultery. Sansa is not accused of adultery. In fact, should both Sansa and Tyrion eventually show up and both swear to the Seven that the marriage was not consummated and should be put aside, I imagine that it would be, without any odd examinations of Sansa. This seems to be something for the accused. Although the Faith has become more and more extreme, so we don't really know what they are up to.

I don't think they'll take their word for it. They'd either have to examine her OR Tyrion would have to say he's impotent (like Giovanni Sforza had to do to annul his marriage to Lucrezia Borgia).

It's an open question though whether it is possible to set aside a marriage done in the light of the Seven with claiming the Old Gods higher authority.

Interesting point as well! Never thought of that. There's also the fact that it was Joffrey who gave her hand in marriage. If it's ever proven or determined that he was a bastard or not the legitimate king because of being the usurper's son, the marriage was performed without any valid consent from the bride or the bride's carers.

The wild card is if Littlefinger should find "Tysha" somewhere and she claims that Tyrion's first marriage was never properly put aside since it seems that Tywin basically just dismissed it with the Septon being drunk and Tysha being sent away and that was that. But where do whores go? Well, to Littlefinger's brothels is probably the answer.

Eh, I think this is more unlikely. I like the thought of her being in one of his brothels but idk, too elaborate... he does know about Tysha though, which is interesting. Where would he have heard that tale?

[A...]

Tyrion wouldn't have to be present though. What Littlefinger needs is for someone who is "Tysha" to testify to the High Septon that the marriage was never annulled... :)

Tyrion is not needed for this. If the woman herself identifies herself as Tysha, well, with Tyrion's really bad reputation what with being a Lannister kinslayer and kingslayer and a proper sob story, who is going to say no? Perhaps LF can sweeten the deal for the Faith as well, since it seems the High Sparrow is not beyond being bartered with if there is something he really wants at the other end. And we already know he dislikes the Lannisters for beheading Ned on the stairs to the Sept of Baelor, and also for Cersei's transgressions, plus I am certain he has heard of Tommen being an abomination born of incest.

Good point! But I'm inclined to think the High Sparrow wouldn't just accept cash on its own (he's too holy for that.) And without some arrangement he would NEVER believe the words of a whoremonger and a whore - or at least somebody described by Tywin as a whore... so what could LF possibly give him to sweeten the offer? Information maybe, specifically something which would bring the Lannisters down. Now what could that be? Qyburn's necromancy, and the existence of unGregor? I'm not certain here as to what the Faith really want and what their agenda is... LF supposedly prides himself on knowing what everybody wants and exploiting that, and the faith obviously cannot be all that faithful, at least not as much as they make themselves out to be, maybe they want their own king on the throne - maybe they have some tie-in to fAegon or somebody else entirely? No idea, their agenda is about as easy to divine as the Others' so far. Probably the best bet would be power- since everybody seems to want some kind of power in ASOIAF. I need to do some kind of faith-centred re-read, they creep me out and I need to understand them better...

[A...]

I don't think they'll take their word for it. They'd either have to examine her OR Tyrion would have to say he's impotent (like Giovanni Sforza had to do to annul his marriage to Lucrezia Borgia).

This would be handy, but from what we know of Tyrion - do we really think it likely he would admit to something like this? Not a chance in the seven hells, methinks. He's waaaay too full of himself when it comes to his supposed prowess in bed.

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

If Littlefinger could whistle up an "Arya" I'm sure he could do the same with a "Tysha" if that suited his purposes. Theon wasn't fooled by Jeyne/"Arya" because he knew the real Arya so well, but most of the people in contact with "Arya" are none the wiser. And Arya is a daughter of the premier Northern house, so people would be expected to know her. Fewer people (if any) would remember Tysha or what she looked like - she was "just" a whore. Tyrion is probably the only one who would see through it.

That, and Littlefinger would no doubt sweeten the deal with the Faith. He also might have some kind of blackmail material he could use. Let's just say that if it suits his purposes to have the Sansa/Tyrion marriage annulled, Littlefinger will find a way to do it. Unfortunately for Sansa, that might mean from the frying pan to the fire as far as a marriage is concerned.