Is Jon's "watch" over?

[Tagganaro]

Jon would technically be an oathbreaker either way, that's the funny thing. If he submits to Ramsay's demands, how is that not oathbreaking? Either way, Jon, and by extension the NW, is caught in between a rock and a hard place because the basic working model for the NW has become obsolete without a supportive Iron Throne and Warden in the North.

[Falconus]

I dont think we should assume Jon is dead. he was stabbed three times then blacked out. He might be grievously wounded but the passage didn't state any fatal injury. So he may remain in a coma like state while he wargs into ghost fulfiling Milasande's Man-Wolf-Man vision but I don't think he will need to be resurected. At least it would be complicate things massively if he were unJon.

GRRM stated before Dance that Jon would become a much greyer character and as the book progressed he did indeed begin behaving less as Ned Stark. By the time he was stabbed he was ready to not only act against the code of the NW by getting involved in the war between Stannis and the Boltons but actively defied his sworn brothers by allowing the Wildlings thru the gate of the Wall and giving them aid and succour. I believe Jon was already at the point where he was going to forsake most of his vows in order to fight the Others. That precisely is the reason why he was attacked. "For the Watch" was said as they stabbed him and i don't think I'm the only one who noted the connatations between Jon and Ceasar. After Ceasar's death one of the conspirators was noted as saying the only good thing about killing him was the sattisfaction felt immediately afterwards though it was brief. The death of Ceasar heralded the end of the Republic and the birth of the Empire. Likewise I think Jon will be considered dead by the Watch but regardless of their attitudes he will abandon most of their dogma and focus on the fight with the Others maintaining the part of the oath about being a light in the world of men. Stabbing Jon will have consequences the NW had not considered perhaps heralding their end.

[starki]

I thought Jon broke the oath ever since he got together with Ygritte anyway...as for the will, can Jon inherit Winterfell ahead of Bran, Rickon, Sansa and Arya all being trueborn Starks just because Robb said so ?

[Budj]

I thought Jon broke the oath ever since he got together with Ygritte anyway...as for the will, can Jon inherit Winterfell ahead of Bran, Rickon, Sansa and Arya all being trueborn Starks just because Robb said so ?

Yep. Would he though is another question. I think he will accept and make other arrangements when their "aliveness" is made known.

[Ser Endrew Tarth]

I thought Jon broke the oath ever since he got together with Ygritte anyway...as for the will, can Jon inherit Winterfell ahead of Bran, Rickon, Sansa and Arya all being trueborn Starks just because Robb said so ?

Apparently a crowned king has the authority to legitamize a bastard within their realm (precedent from Dunk and Egg tales when the blackfyre bastards were legitamized by a Targ king). I wasn't aware however that a king could free him of his vows to the NW, but Stannis was ready to do that as well so there may be a precedent there we're not aware of.

He DID break his vows with Ygritte, but he was under orders from the Halfhand so it's kind of a grey area.

[TheeMikeHoncho]

Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come.

"I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch......." There is no loophole for Jon because his honor is way more important than his life. We have seen him forsake life over honor time and time again. He could have taken Winterfell, married the hottest woman in the North, and pretty much live the life he dreamed of as a child. Honor though would not allow him to do that. The price was too high- he would have had to turn his back on his brothers, his religion, the real war in westeros w/ the others.

[Zerrex]

Sounds like a pretty sad loophole and as others have said kind of against the spirit of the vow. I mean when they thought of trying to write up a vow I'm pretty sure no guy mentioned "But wait a second.. what if a guy was to die, but then magically revive himself, wouldn't he be technically out? Should we line two to read; 'It shall not end until my death, that is, my final death in the circumstance in which I am magically revived and brought back into the realm of the living. This one is for keeps, no backsies.'?"

Doesn't have the same ring to it, if you ask me.

Also picturing two people in an unhappy marriage, in which the husband's heart stops beating only to be "revived" by the defibrillator, as he awakens and his wife goes to hug him he screams "NO! Get away from me you're not my wife! Until death do we part, I died, you all saw! Marriage over! No backsies!"

Short of the exaggerated anecdote, the point remains that it's a stretch and although it is an "out" it simply screams cop-out.

[Arya Targaryen]

I'm not sure that being dead and resurrected actually frees him from his vows. There are several possibilities, though:

1) "I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch" -what if the Night's Watch doesn't accept it, saying: dude, we don't want your life and honor. According to the oath, they offer something to the Watch - and the Watch can refuse it, technically.

2) They make the vows in front of the gods - old and new. The 7 have septons, and the High Septon can release them. But the Old gods don't have septons, so technically they have to do it themselves. But who are the Old Gods, and can they communicate in any way? Well, now it seems that they are late greenseers, still living on in the trees. And there is Bran of course, who actually can communicate through a tree. Just imagine Jon in front of a heart tree, and suddenly the tree starts speaking like: "I release you ..."

3) When someone dies, they say: And now his watch has ended. I think this very sentence has special significance, and would release anyone from the vows (thats why they say it) - so if they think Jon is dead and at his burial someone says these words, he would be released from his vows. But I'm not sure in this one.

[Budj]

I'm not sure that being dead and resurrected actually frees him from his vows. There are several possibilities, though:

1) "I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch" -what if the Night's Watch doesn't accept it, saying: dude, we don't want your life and honor. According to the oath, they offer something to the Watch - and the Watch can refuse it, technically.

2) They make the vows in front of the gods - old and new. The 7 have septons, and the High Septon can release them. But the Old gods don't have septons, so technically they have to do it themselves. But who are the Old Gods, and can they communicate in any way? Well, now it seems that they are late greenseers, still living on in the trees. And there is Bran of course, who actually can communicate through a tree. Just imagine Jon in front of a heart tree, and suddenly the tree starts speaking like: "I release you ..."

3) When someone dies, they say: And now his watch has ended. I think this very sentence has special significance, and would release anyone from the vows (thats why they say it) - so if they think Jon is dead and at his burial someone says these words, he would be released from his vows. But I'm not sure in this one.

You know - going in to the whole "swearing the vow to the old gods means more" theme...which I think it does considering the NW is a First Men institution (and the magical weirwood door Sam used) it would make sense that those same gods could release you from your vow. Maybe Jon doesn't need a loop hole at all.

[AegonTheConquerer]

Would he want to return if his brothers tried to kill him?

OT: does anyone else hate when GRRM brings characters back to life?

[Budj]

Would he want to return if his brothers tried to kill him?

OT: does anyone else hate when GRRM brings characters back to life?

Not really because they never come back the same...they are essentially a new character.

Jon may be the exception due to warging...the same process that healed Drogo could heal him and the consciousness being in Ghost could save his memory of pre-death....but I would still rather he just survive.

[dreamcatcher]

I don't believe Jon would use a cheap out such as that. As was said above, technically that might be ok, but in spirit it goes against the oath.

The big way out is gonna be Robb's will when it most likely shows up next book. Important to note that when Jon turned Stannis down, it was not about his oath or anything like that. Jon was unwilling to renounce the Old Gods, which would be akin to renouncing Ghost and Ned. But he wanted everything else- He wants Val as his wife, he wants to be Lord of Winterfell, and he was fine with being legitimized by Stannis. The problem was that pursuant to Melisandre's demands, Jon thought he was going to have to burn down the Weirwood Tree at Winterfell, which he refused to do.

So no, I think Jon will probably go with a legitimization route if anything.

This. Jon would've taken Stannis' offer if he could still keep the old gods, this is made clear in the chapter. Jon isn't so keen on that 'till death do us part' thingy in the contract, he's really flexible about that. Some posters up here believe that Jon is super honourable and would never break a vow and if he would, it would be a cop out. He didn't want to be in the watch anyway, he got dragged back in the first book already, I think this reflects the end of his time up north.

He probably won't even die (not even just for a while, he'll be in a coma), but he'll be mightily disappointed with the NW who'll probably be totally out of control after Jon's death. He'll also have Arya on his mind and Ghost-Jon will maybe even meet a weirwood-Bran who'll tell him to leave the Watch, that he's the heir to Winterfell and much more.

[stanprollyright]

Why would Bran tell Jon he's the heir? Bran doesn't know that, and besides, Jon's claim only exists because everyone thought that Bran and Rickon were dead.

[Rhaega Targaryen]

I know that the main issue being discussed here is whether or not Jon, after waking from a coma or coming back from the dead, will stay in the Night's Watch. However the issue I'm having a harder time with is whether or not he will even be alive in the next book. I know we didn't technically get a death confirmation, but come on. The man was stabbed repeatedly, at least once right between his shoulder blades. His death, or whatever it was, reminded me very much of Rob's death. Rob was shot multiple times and technically, within book 3, we didn't get a for sure death confirmation. Wouldn't it seem like a little too much of an unreal come back for Jon to live?

On the other hand, I don't understand how he could possibly be dead. There was just too much hinting that Jon is more than the bastard he seems to be. I can't help but feel that there is too much investment in this character for him to really be dead. He has too many secrets left to uncover, or so it seems. I don't know, this feels like a lose-lose situation. If he comes back from the dead or never actually died, then there are just too many fake deaths. If he dies for real it feels like we all missed out on an awesome character.

[bemused]

Consider this.. imagine that the wall fails in some sense..(may or may not be an actual physical collapse.) Some semblance of the NW may survive..fighters who would feel the necessity of protecting the realms of men. They may or may not have been NW previously. They would be the new equivalent of the NW.

Without the idea of protecting the realms of men , all the other components of the oath are meaningless . If Old Nan was right , and the wall will stand so long as the NW stays true , what do we suppose would happen if suddenly most of the NW took the attitude of Bowen Marsh ?.. Let those who are not already behind the wall die, hunker down , don't share your food ,seal the gates , send out no rangers.. seems like a recipe for disaster.

now consider Jon who has been striving to live the core tenets of the oath. He's thought about it , recognizes what's really important about it. Do we think , with the others staring them in the face, that a man who has taken a wife , or lover ,or fathered children would not be as effective as a man who hadn't ? What about a spearwife ?

In the fight against the others, taking no spouse , having no offspring will be the first things to go. If political entities from the south are trying to subvert the purpose of the NW..taking no part will be the next thing to go. Stannis was not the first to try to use the NW, Tywin was. Stannis at least didn't force his will on Jon and the NW completely.. Would Tywin have done the same ? would the Boltons ? the Martells ? I wouldn't bet on it.

So long as the watch is living up to being the shield that guards the realms of men, it can go through quite a metamorphosis without breaking any magical pact. If the magic should fail , for any reason, those men / women can still from the frontline defense or mankind wherever they stand their ground.

Who and how many would be suited to lead them ?

ETA: I think Jon's alive. GRRM never says he's dead. He just ends the chapter with out clarifying what Jon's condition is. Some readers conclude he's dead, sure ..but that wouldn't be a fake death , just a litlle misdirection .

[Tagganaro]

Consider this.. imagine that the wall fails in some sense..(may or may not be an actual physical collapse.) Some semblance of the NW may survive..fighters who would feel the necessity of protecting the realms of men. They may or may not have been NW previously. They would be the new equivalent of the NW.

Without the idea of protecting the realms of men , all the other components of the oath are meaningless . If Old Nan was right , and the wall will stand so long as the NW stays true , what do we suppose would happen if suddenly most of the NW took the attitude of Bowen Marsh ?.. Let those who are not already behind the wall die, hunker down , don't share your food ,seal the gates , send out no rangers.. seems like a recipe for disaster.

now consider Jon who has been striving to live the core tenets of the oath. He's thought about it , recognizes what's really important about it. Do we think , with the others staring them in the face, that a man who has taken a wife , or lover ,or fathered children would not be as effective as a man who hadn't ? What about a spearwife ?

In the fight against the others, taking no spouse , having no offspring will be the first things to go. If political entities from the south are trying to subvert the purpose of the NW..taking no part will be the next thing to go. Stannis was not the first to try to use the NW, Tywin was. Stannis at least didn't force his will on Jon and the NW completely.. Would Tywin have done the same ? would the Boltons ? the Martells ? I wouldn't bet on it.

So long as the watch is living up to being the shield that guards the realms of men, it can go through quite a metamorphosis without breaking any magical pact. If the magic should fail , for any reason, those men / women can still from the frontline defense or mankind wherever they stand their ground.

Who and how many would be suited to lead them ?

ETA: I think Jon's alive. GRRM never says he's dead. He just ends the chapter with out clarifying what Jon's condition is. Some readers conclude he's dead, sure ..but that wouldn't be a fake death , just a litlle misdirection .

Interesting to note that the taking no part thing is not even part of the vow. Just a habitual practice that became normal? So that should really be the first thing to go. Can't have it both ways- On one end the NW is completely incapable and helpless in terms of defending itself from threats from the South. How can an institution like that stay neutral?

[Sand Snake No. 9]

In a story with so many oathbreakers -- popular oathbreakers -- poor Jon has to bear the burden of being the only faithful man in Westeros? And to an institution that has betrayed him? Poop.

Reportedly GRRM has said that Jon will become a much greyer character. I hope that means we not only get an undead (or better, a never dead) Jon in the next book, but a really pissed off Jon who just assumes a leadership role and starts kicking bad guy ass whether it's Night's Watch, Queen's Men, Wilding or Other. Time to stop waffling and to start doing.

[alcaponesgunps3]

Maybe Jon goes into ghost explaining his dream were he senses bran in the weirwood

[Ser Endrew Tarth]

Maybe Jon goes into ghost explaining his dream were he senses bran in the weirwood

This may not be a future meeting but instead a dream meeting. i believe Bran even mentions the dream as well when he wakes up. His comment about the smell of dead things, and the dark also fit where Bran currently was, the crypts of winterfell. I'm not saying you're wrong, but there may be other ways to interpret that dream/prophetic dream.

[sketchy]

people bring up Checkv's gun a lot on the forums here - am I the only one who noticed the other huge 'gun' on the wall?

998

he is no longer Lord Commander, so someone will be 999 (and likely one of those responsible for the attack)

I think he will return to be the 1000th, and will be much more focused.