Is Jon's "watch" over?

[Night Gathers]

People have stated it earlier, but "This night, and all the nights to come" pretty much sums up the fact that he's bound to the Night's Watch forever.

[accom]

wasn't he going to break his oath by riding south to attack bolton? even though he didn't commit the crime does intent cause your oath to be broken? either way i cant imagine the night watch exists after this. it sounded like the stewards were attacking more than just jon. i cant imagine the wildlings standing by idly. they have the numbers and can destroy the night watch which is what i believe happened. bowen march fulfilled his own prophecy and released a wildling army loss on the realm with no loyalty to anyone. at least jon had their loyalty. So if there is no more watch is there an oath?

[the Scorpion Knight]

wasn't he going to break his oath by riding south to attack bolton?

not really he was protecting his guests

[Errant Bard]

I refer to Dolorous Edd:

"'Edd' they'll say, 'dying's no excuse for lying down no more, so get on up and take this spear, you've got the watch tonight.' Well, I shouldn't be so gloomy. Might be I'll die before they work it out."

I refer to dreams:

Burning shafts hissed upward, trailing tongues of fire. Scarecrow brothers tumbled down, black cloaks ablaze. “Snow,” an eagle cried, as foemen scuttled up the ice like spiders. Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist. As the dead men reached the top of the Wall he sent them down to die again. He slew a greybeard and a beardless boy, a giant, a gaunt man with filed teeth, a girl with thick red hair. Too late he recognized Ygritte. She was gone as quick as she’d appeared.

Jon won't be leaving. He's going to become another Beric, flaming blade included, only with ice as armour.

...Anyway, discussing the existence of that loophole misses the point. The point would be: for whom does that loophole matter?

I see three:

• Jon
  
• The Watch
  
• People not in the watch

For Jon, would death mean he would think he can ditch the Watch and start having land and wenches? Yes, since even without death he could decide to ditch his vow.

For the watch, would death let him out? Tricky. The rebels would not have him either way anyway so death is meaningless, the loyalists would certainly be disgusted by either his oathbreaking or his wight-ness. Either way they would not see it as good or legal, nor would they support him. Sam would certainly be very very disappointed, him who went so far as punch Dareon for the same thing.

People not in the watch... That's where it becomes problematic. Screw lawyers, what they see is either an oathbreaker or an undead. Can "I'm undead" cut it to get their loyalty? I think it is a worse selling point than "I'm an oathbreaker". I suppose jon could gloss over the oathbreaking and throw reponsibility on the Watch: "I had a rebellion in the Watch, so I may as well become a lord", but that's not using that "loophole" anymore. Either way it's not too convincing to anyone who knows a real Stark is alive (and thus that any will drafted by Robb, even if they still recognize the king in the North, is void, because written based on wrong facts), who would be asked to support him, except for the wildlings.

Also, Jon either died or did not. Recovering from being gravely wounded is still being alive and is not meeting any loophole condition.

not really he was protecting his guests

Same thing. He himself thinks that he is breaking his oath, you cannot wiggle out of this one.

[Lady Winter Rose]

Edison B. I log in only to give you like. That's pretty much what I was thinking all along, but was not eloquent enough to verbalized my thought.

[Lonin]

Jon's story arc is in a difficult situation. The Starks are 'big' on oaths.. It looks to me that Jon is breaking his oath to the NW. I m looking forward to GRRMs solution to avoid oath breaking. I would like to see Jon leave NW, fight with Stannis to defeat Boltons, and become a legit Stark... and become Lord of Winterfell... but, its all up to GRRM.

[MCBC]

Jon already made his choice. He knew as a leader that exceptions had to be made, that he couldnt fight the wildlings & the others so he saw that he needed to make peace the former. He needed more people to fight & work so he employed the same wildlings. Jon wasnt going to follow the status quo because he knew it was futile & with that he already has a foot out of the door.

The Nightswatch is an order that is on the verge of completely eroding but still certain members follow the traditions that only they value. When Jon wakes up, he isnt going to value those rules any more than he did before. The only question is if there will be a Nightswatch for Jon to even have to offically break his vows to. You see how their is going to be a split in the ranks. Are these people going to go beserk & kill each other? Are they just going to split? Who knows.

[accom]

the wall may bfall at some point freeing him from being stuck in the north. another long march south being attacked by wights and others. sounds familiar.

[Stormcatcher]

Even if it does technically free him from his watch, I don't think Jon wants to be freed.

He's very into being a Night's Watchman. I don't think he's about to go 'technically I died, so I quit this job!' Besides, I think part of his character arc is realising that not being a Stark is not everything. He has an important thing in the Watch, he isn't going to throw it away. While I think he'd still march on Winterfell, I don't think he'd use that as an excuse to claim the castle and become a lord or something like that.

[Ice Turtle]

I think that Jon will leave the NW ironically because it will enable him to keep spirit of his wows and protect realms of the men better. No matter what they will call him, as a leader of the united North he can do much more than as LC.

[Tagganaro]

Even if it does technically free him from his watch, I don't think Jon wants to be freed.

He's very into being a Night's Watchman. I don't think he's about to go 'technically I died, so I quit this job!' Besides, I think part of his character arc is realising that not being a Stark is not everything. He has an important thing in the Watch, he isn't going to throw it away. While I think he'd still march on Winterfell, I don't think he'd use that as an excuse to claim the castle and become a lord or something like that.

You see, I don't get where this comes from. He spends the majority of ADWD in a miserable and reflective state about how he should have taken Stannis's offer. He hates his fellow NW members for the most part, seems much more at home and happy with the Wildlings, and realizes that the NW is basically a dead institution.

And again, the only reason he didn't take Stannis's offer is because he thought he would have to burn the Weirwood in Winterfell and renounce the Old Gods. Other than that, he clearly desired everything he was offered by Stannis and was a heartbeat away from accepting it. And to reiterate, he really hates his position iN ADWD. He's depressed and miserable for the entire book because of it.

[starki]

Depends. Like Brienne in AFFC, his final lines in ADWD are very open-ended. Maybe he's dead, maybe he will be resurrected somehow (having one Undead Stark around already is enough though), maybe he will warg Ghost...

[Jovem Corvo]

There is this tale about the 79 sentinels.

They were deserters from the Night's Watch. They left their posts to be outlaws; in the end they were brought back to the Wall. The Lord Commander of that time had holes hewn in the top of the Wall and he put the deserters in them and sealed them alive in the ice.

But the moral of the story is that as they left their posts in life their watch would go on forever in death.

I think this says a lot about Jon's fate, whichever it might be. Once a Sworn Brother, always a Sworn Brother, right?

[Night Gathers]

There is this tale about the 79 sentinels.

They were deserters from the Night's Watch. They left their posts to be outlaws; in the end they were brought back to the Wall. The Lord Commander of that time had holes hewn in the top of the Wall and he put the deserters in them and sealed them alive in the ice.

But the moral of the story is that as they left their posts in life their watch would go on forever in death.

I think this says a lot about Jon's fate, whichever it might be. Once a Sworn Brother, always a Sworn Brother, right?

Yes, I stumbled upon that passage a few days back and I thought the same.

[Lord of Cheese]

There is this tale about the 79 sentinels.

They were deserters from the Night's Watch. They left their posts to be outlaws; in the end they were brought back to the Wall. The Lord Commander of that time had holes hewn in the top of the Wall and he put the deserters in them and sealed them alive in the ice.

But the moral of the story is that as they left their posts in life their watch would go on forever in death.

I think this says a lot about Jon's fate, whichever it might be. Once a Sworn Brother, always a Sworn Brother, right?

Jon is not a deserter and does not deserve a deserters fate.

It fits within the words of the NW that his watch ends with his death. I just dont know how Mel is going to bring him back as 'proper Jon', unchanged. It also needs to be seen if everyone else will treat this story of him actually dying as a false story to escape the NW, or believe it and treat him as an abomination. idk.

[GreenHand]

1] Jon's attitude to Oaths

Jon Snow Is capable of being an oathbreaker, even if he resist it. He sticks to his oaths because he craves a (honoured?) place in the world. Keeping his oaths makes him a man of the Night's Watch giving him that belonging. He wants to be honourable to be like his father so that he can be like a Stark and part of that family (even though he feels he is not in essential ways). He did desert the Watch once before his Black brothers brought him back. And yes, he would have taken Stannis' offer if not for the Godswood razing proviso. And repeatedly he says to himself "What is one man's honour against the safety of the realm.." as he flirts with contravention and compromise.

BUUTT, More than anyone else Jon realizes the magnitude and immanence of the White Walker threat and the impending long Winter. This will drive his actions strongly.

So, as a Leader in the North, watchman or not, I believe Jon will serve the defence of the realm, even if he breaks his oaths or seeks things for himself outside his oaths as well.

-----------------------

2] unDeath in the Ancient Watch

I disagree. The ancient Watch formed around a War against the undead. The ancient watch for whom the Vow was established knew exactly about the parameters of death. In fact the Others and their wights were active around the Wall even up to the 13th Lord Commander (The Night's King). We don't know how Coldhands came to be the way he was, once a brother of the Nights Watch, but if it could happen to him it could happen to others in those early days. So there would be some precedent I think.

I think death does release him from his vows simply because once a watchman has crossed to the other side he can no longer be trusted. After death/undeath/resurrection he has touched the evils of the other side and now is no longer human, ergo potentially not entirely on their side.

Hmm, the 79 sentinels is an interesting and significant hint/precedent to be sure. But I think Jon's situation is different. After taking the vows each watchman now owes the Nights Watch a specific debt: Service until Death. In the case of deserters that debt was not paid, and so after death they are still in arrears and so must pay their debt in some other way, namely by "further service" after death. Jon (as yet) has not deserted so if he were to die his debt has been honoured and paid in full. He would be free where the 79 sentinels were not.

[koststerg]

Jon did not stay in the NW just for the oath, he stayed because he considers the war against the Others as the most important of the current human wars (his choices at the end of GoT and later make that clear). So he is not going to "abandon the job" to become lord or have a wife. But his days in the wall I think are over.

My belief on Jon's assassination (and I am pretty confident of it :cool4: ) is that Selyse and Bowen are together in it, have plan it carefully and are about to take control of at least Black Castle. When they do, only a dead Jon can be acceptable there. If Jon survives or revives he has to leave fast and stay away. The wildings might liked Jon (some of them) but I don't see them risking their new situation for him and if he looks even remotely dead to them then they will only want to make sure that he stays dead. We are not in the South where the Uncats of the world can command some respect apart from fear. In the North the presence of anyone who had been dead will only bring fear and hate as reactions, especially form the wildings' part.

So yes, Jon's death technically frees him from his vows but who might care or even notice such a technicality after the whole mess of Jon's assassination and his possible resurrection. Well, the Old Gods would, since the oath was given to them and gods tend to take these things seriously. Are the "Old gods" a real entity in this world (an ancestor "memory" or the leaders of CotF) and are they going to have an impact on the war? The need for Jon to die and live again could be a clue to that, or it could just be an AA necessity.

In any case, Jon's "watch" is over. The Wall is to be breached and story-wise he has to be far away to survive the first wave and at the same time save his credibility as a war leader. I agree with many that he will return to the empty Winterfell (destroyed by the battle that is going to happen soon there) hopefully he will get in the crypts a Snow, he will find whatever Ned and his mother left for him and come out as a 'Dragon' - Targ (and so a dragon will be born in Winterfell but a shadowy one since he might still be a little bit dead)

[Dark_Rin]

You know it would be great if Jon was actually dead, for good.

martin made abig thing about wanting the reader to feel real peril for his characters with the death of Ned Stark but honestly which of the main characters has real had that much peril to deal with?

Bran and Rickon were thought to be dead but weren't.

Davos was supposed to be killed by Manderly but wasn't.

Arya went blind but can have her eye sight returned to her at anytime.

Dany was supposedly killed when riding Drogon but hadn't.

Brienne is meant to have been killed by Cat but at the end of Feast you get a very strong hint that she is spared, plus she appears again in Dance , sure only briefly and it may not even be her but still I can't see her being dead.

Cersei has pretty much crawled her way out of trouble.

Cat died but then was brought back.

Theon was thought to be dead, but guess what? He wasn't. Asha will obviously find a way to save him as well so he can lawfully challenge Euron for the Iron Islands.

Only Rob and Quentyn have actually died out of the main characters after Ned, Rob was never a POV character and Quentyn only appeared in Dance.

Someone needs to die and actualkly die to keep that 'peril' alive. At the moment I can't see any of the principle characters being dead anytime soon.

[The Dornishman's Wife]

Pycelle, Oberyn, Kevan, Joffrey, King Robert, Renly, Tywin, Maester Aemon, Lysa... Ned, Robb and Quentyn weren't the only characters who died in the course of the series.

Of the top 30 characters established by polling towerofthehand, 8 are dead beyond a doubt (not even counting probably dead like Syrio and others like Cat who died but didn't have the good grace to stay down). The top 20 hated have had 7 fatalities, and that's not counting a case like Gregor even though the man Gregor is obviously quite gone.

Of course it seems highly unlikely that one of the very first tier will die in the next book (i.e. Jon, Arya, Tyrion, Dany or Bran), but the rest seem to be very fair game.

[Would be wolf]

I think Jon's story arc will take him south. I also think that R+L=J. And he is probably one of three heads of the dragon.

Being the honorable type Jon would probably not accept a release from his oath as it was one sworn to the old gods. I think "killing" him was GRRM's way to free him up and provide a cliff hanger. So he will die and then have some form of rebirth (hopefull involving a a POV chapter as Ghost). When he is reborn he will consider his oath to have been completed, freeing up to go south with LB as AA or PtwP. Hopefully, he gets to slaughter some Freys on the way.