Heresy 17

[Black Crow]

Exactly. Whomever actually fits this prophecy will simply fit it in the course of whatever they're going to do regardless of this prophecy. It would be the historical record that would confirm him/her as AAR.

Indeed, there seems to be a certain amount of putting the cart before the horse in this. Its not going to be a matter of identifying somebody as AA by a curious birthmark, handing them a sword and sending them forth to do battle. The prophecy says that in time of darkness etc there will be a warrior, and that's what we're going to see; somebody is going to go slaying the Others right left and centre and an astonished populace is going to raise up their hands and say: Wow lookee here; he/she is just like AA come again!

[Tyryan Lannister]

OT: In the appendix for Dance, under Beyond the Wall, it lists this: "JOJEN REED, her brother, thirteen cursed with greensight."

Anyone have any thoughts on why the word cursed is used?

[Black Crow]

Don't know what they actually did. But the ripples in the steel are characteristic for folded steel. And them, as far as I remeber it, the smith tells, that the coloring would pnly go into the folds - please correct me, memory is a treacherous thing. But what ever it is, if you melt it down, it becomes a pott full of bubbling iron. Any features, that the blad had, get lost. So the only way to keep those properties is to cut and rework with temperaturs below, say, 500 to 600 degrees. Or else you will change the the cristal structure of the steel. But anayway, whatever the smith did, the logic is: if the valyrian magic lingers - as it does, as Briennes handling o the blade shows - the steel is unchanged and any other magic would linger, too. So if - what I don't think - Ice was lightbearer, it still is. Only, that now we have two Lightbearers. Nice thought, hmm? Would be just lile Star Wars in the final duel. Red and blue blade crossing :lol:

Being lazy I haven't looked up exactly what Tobho Mott said, but as I distinctly recall he said that he had split the blade in two and that it was very difficult to separate them because the sword "remembered" its original form and kept trying to resume its proper shape.

[Black Crow]

OT: In the appendix for Dance, under Beyond the Wall, it lists this: "JOJEN REED, her brother, thirteen cursed with greensight."

Anyone have any thoughts on why the word cursed is used?

I think its a traditional way of regarding people with the power to see the future - like Cassandra - because they can see what's fated to happen but can't do a damned thing about it.

[mrazny]

Did Mel know that davos was going to find the letter to convince Stannis to go to the wall. Or was she always intending to bring him to the wall, since AA is all about defeating the others or are they?? Because if she was intent on getting to Jon its a bit of a roundabout way of doing it. I dont see any indication she even knew anything about Jon beforehand.

I won't speak for everyone, but I took the proposition to be more of the R'hlor is trying to get Mel is Jon, and showing her Stannis to get her in that direction. She thoroughly believes she's being shown Stannis because he is AAR, but the fires are just guiding her to Jon and she's too proud, dense, whathaveyou to figure that out.

[Eyron]

Yes! It's like her fire TV signal is getting scrambled, so she's getting interference. Maybe because the Wall is a giant force field of magic? ;) This also made me wonder: do you think Mel is picking up mixed signals? You know, like how you sometimes get overlapping radio stations when you are traveling through the point where the two signals intersect?

I have been thinking alond these lines too. It's something about the Wall that makes her suddenly see BR and Bran who she never saw before. Perhaps she sees them because she sees dangers to herself, or because she is getting their "signal", it's hard to tell.

The Wall is a great receiver! Heh heh.

Since she started burning weirwoods she may be a target for the tree-lot, I don't think she is well received by them at all. So in a way she may be correct about them being the enemy, but since she interprets everything in monochrome she thinks they are the great Other and his henchman. Just think how a few skulls can make you look bad... BR and Bran are sitting in a place where there are literally skulls lying about, and I don't think they were from victims, just Children, giants and animals that died from natural causes, kept at the roots of the weirwood in a tradition similar to having crypts.

"Are you the three-eyed crow?" Bran hear himself say... "A...crow?" The pale lord's voice was dry. His lips moved slowly, as if they had forgotten how to form word. "Once, aye. Black of garb and black of blood."

I take this to mean that there is at least something in his past that BR regrets having down/been a part of. Considering that he references it as he references his time on the Watch (he admits that he was once called a crow--which we know is a term used for the Watch--and that he was black of garb--granted, that isn't as indicative of the Watch considering that he always wore black, but...) I know it's a stretch, but I feel that this is BR admitted that he did something while on the Wall that he shouldn't have, and that this would be the direct reason for his having left.

ETA: In Bran 3 (i think), Leaf tells Meera and Bran that, "He [bR] has lived beyond his mortal span, and yet he lingers. For us, for you, for the realms of men." I find this to be showing that he is no longer a Targ loyalist (if he ever was) and that he is simply trying to reach a certain point in the defense of men... against what, of course, is the real question.

Black blood has been mentioned in a few recurring circumstances. Hotweaselsoup collected it for us in the first threadlet.

The last part (bolded) I agree with wholeheartedly! Bloodraven lingers for us, for you, for the realms of men... One of my favourite passages of the books so far... It is heartbreaking to me, the man literally has a tree growing out of and through his body but lingers for the people.

Sum summarum about the black blood:

Hotweaselsoup:

So, basically, we have dead things with black blood, poisoned things with black blood, Night's Watchmen and their bastards with black blood, and at least one red priestess and one dragon with black blood. Plus lots of blood that looks black when it's dark out.

Me:

It seems GRRM likes to write "black blood" in all possible circumstances :D

Black blood seems to mean something bad in general, like something that is doomed, via poison, illness, death, perhaps sorcery and then the Night's Watch... That makes me a bit uncomfortable, why do the NW have "black blood" exactly? Maybe it has something to do with them being doomed, or that their purpose is tied to death, as in dying for the realms of men, like lambs of sacrifice. Or am I just reading too much in this?

[Uncat]

Being lazy I haven't looked up exactly what Tobho Mott said, but as I distinctly recall he said that he had split the blade in two and that it was very difficult to separate them because the sword "remembered" its original form and kept trying to resume its proper shape.

Being lazy, too, I'm happy to go with this. Ice was not melted or reforged, but somehow split against its will and the two pieces were hammered into two blades, unwilling to accept the coloring. So basicaly Ice is still there, only split up and, so to say, scattered across the realm.

And for the fans of LOTR: There may come a time, when Nazil will be reforged :)

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

I like the mixed signals at the Wall, since it would make sense that there are two different kinds of magic at work to create this "hinge".

Does anyone think there is a significance to the fact that the only Weirwoods directly at the Wall seem to be the ones at the Nightfort, the only gate of the original Wall? The grove north of the Wall at Castle Black is a few hours away.

I've always perceived the "Hinge" description as meaning the Wall can open (brought down... Say, wiith a horn, perhaps?). Sort of like a door. It can bar passage or allow passage of something that can/will affect the entire world.

[Eyron]

So... When Ice was split it turned a dark red.

Dawn is pale as milkglass. Makes me wonder what colour the original Ice was. And where it went of course.

What if there once was a sword that was red as fire, that was split in two, and the two turned icy pale... Hm, well it must a been an enormous sword! :)

[Uncat]

<snip>

Bloodraven lingers for us, for you, for the realms of men... One of my favourite passages of the books so far... It is heartbreaking to me, the man literally has a tree growing out of and through his body but lingers for the people.

<snip>

And then, the little speach if Varys in the epilogue of ADWD or his explanations in AGOT com to mind. It is all for the good of the realm, the says repeatedly (and for the children, the suffering inocents)

It just reminded me of Varis boilerplate for his actions. What to make of this, I would not know. Only, that with Varys it does not sound half a sincere.

[Uncat]

I've always perceived the "Hinge" description as meaning the Wall can open (brought down... Say, wiith a horn, perhaps?). Sort of like a door. It can bar passage or allow passage of something that can/will affect the entire world.

Yes and no. Not being brought down. But very much alowing passage and exchange, I'd say.

A hinge is a movable part, which, though moving, stays, where it is.

The peculiar thing about a hinge is, that, while it allows or even enables movement, itself never moves, but is the one fixed point around which movement happens.

As in the Wall stays. Winter can be allowed thrugh it, man can be allowed through it, the whole world can turn around it, but the Wall stands still.

[Uncat]

So... When Ice was split it turned a dark red.

Dawn is pale as milkglass. Makes me wonder what colour the original Ice was. And where it went of course.

What if there once was a sword that was red as fire, that was split in two, and the two turned icy pale... Hm, well it must a been an enormous sword! :)

Nice idea. But Ice (or its part) did not turn red. The smith tried to dye the steel red and thus making it a Lannister blade. But the steel was reluctant to accept the dye. The coloring became much darker then intended, while only the ripples would accept the color. So the two blades are not red but show a fine pattern of lines colored not in the intended crimson but in a much darker blood red. The blade itself stayed a dark grey.

Edit:

Ice in the show is an enormous thing, its scabbard is a wolf's pelt. There it really is a sword for cermonial pupouses like an execution or a knighting. Wield it in battle would be a hard thing, though Ned seems to have done this at the ToJ.

Anyway, I'm not quite shure how to split it, to make two longswords, but I'd say along the center line parallel to its edges might work. Then you would cut the two pieces to lengh and hammer those two halfblades down into two flatter blades (which in the process cold or heate below some 500 degrees Celsius, to get them broad enough to serve the purpouse. Then you would grind a new edge where you once cut the sword.

[Eyron]

And then, the little speach if Varys in the epilogue of ADWD or his explanations in AGOT com to mind. It is all for the good of the realm, the says repeatedly (and for the children, the suffering inocents)

It just reminded me of Varis boilerplate for his actions. What to make of this, I would not know. Only, that with Varys it does not sound half a sincere.

Yes, I think this is an interesting comparison.

Both masters of whisperers.

BR had his thousand eyes spying for him, literal ravens I assume.

Varys has his multitude of "little birds", the children living in the Walls and around the world.

The two work for the good of the realm, or pretend to, as you say BR seems more sincere. I don't trust Varys to mean he is doing it for the children. I basically feel like Varys is a bleak copy of BR, but no one can say Varys don't work hard for his goals and is a real master in his trade.

[Eyron]

Nice idea. But Ice (or its part) did not turn red. The smith tried to dye the steel red and thus making it a Lannister blade. But the steel was reluctant to accept the dye. The coloring became much darker then intended, while only the ripples would accept the color. So the two blades are not red but show a fine pattern of lines colored not in the intended crimson but in a much darker blood red. The blade itself stayed a dark grey.

Oh right, forgot that... Ice does not want to change, it has a will of it's own.

This gives me all kinds of creepy ideas as to how the Valyrian blades were once made... A poster (sorry can't remember who it was) once wrote that Lightbringer IS Nissa Nissa, her soul went into the blade, and will only come alive when she is back in hands she chooses. Hands that she somehow recognizes or deems worthy.

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

Anyway, I'm not quite shure how to split it, to make two longswords, but I'd say along the center line parallel to its edges might work. Then you would cut the two pieces to lengh and hammer those two halfblades down into two flatter blades (which in the process cold or heate below some 500 degrees Celsius, to get them broad enough to serve the purpouse. Then you would grind a new edge where you once cut the sword.

Well, again, no splitting is ever mentioned, and the swords are different lengths and thicknesses. Although he mention that he doesn't know that he could duplicate the colors again indicating that they might have been done as part of the same process. The smith says specifically that he used spells to affect the colors, but that the sword resists. Maybe this is actually why Valyrian Steel, if it is the same Dragon Steel is effective against the others and wights. As it seems to be somewhat magic resistant.

Having read it again, there is a very interesting line. With respect to the color he says "as if the blade was drinking the sun from it".

[Uncat]

Ahh, yes, the little birds. Never thought of that. Well, one might say, that BR to Varis equals Targ to Blackfyre. The one is the real deal, while the other pretends to be. Just like the one (BR) does it for the Children, while the other does it for the children - what ever he means by this word.

But I don't want to drag us down a "is Varys a Blackfyre debate". So if anybody likes the idea, please just take it to a convenient thread.

[Uncat]

Oh right, forgot that... Ice does not want to change, it has a will of it's own.

This gives me all kinds of creepy ideas as to how the Valyrian blades were once made... A poster (sorry can't remember who it was) once wrote that Lightbringer IS Nissa Nissa, her soul went into the blade, and will only come alive when she is back in hands she chooses. Hands that she somehow recognizes or deems worthy.

Ahh, yes, I remeber that one, too. Tempted to ascribe it to Hotweaselsoup, but can't realy remeber it.

And for the delight of Wun Wun:

As to the splitting. He says, he reworked it. Well, if he did not use a wand, there is basicly one way to do this: splitting it up either using a chisel to split it along its lengh or using a saw to cut in halves. Seeing, that two halve blades would be to short and broad, he would have used a chisel to split it up along its lengh. Doing this, you get two pieces with one edge, each. Now, you would hammer away along the lengh of that side of the piece, where you parted the sword, in order to shape this side into a new edge. thus, the piece of sword gets flatter but broader and once again takes the shape of a sword's blade (having been a great sword, you would also need to cut away some inches until it becomes a (shorter then a greatsword) long sword.

I'll stop it here. I you aren't sattisfied or in a mood to teach me, go nuts on the internet. I'll be happy to learn :)

No, really, I mean it.

[Uncat]

Well, again, no splitting is ever mentioned, and the swords are different lengths and thicknesses. Although he mention that he doesn't know that he could duplicate the colors again indicating that they might have been done as part of the same process. The smith says specifically that he used spells to affect the colors, but that the sword resists. Maybe this is actually why Valyrian Steel, if it is the same Dragon Steel is effective against the others and wights. As it seems to be somewhat magic resistant.

Having read it again, there is a very interesting line. With respect to the color he says "as if the blade was drinking the sun from it".

Yeah, I remeber that line. It is one of the lines, which give the feeling, that there is a deep meaning behind it, but I'm unable to get it. This either because I'm to dumb or because, in order to get it, I would need some information, I don't have, yet.

[Uncat]

Last thought for today - no, yesterday, it's one AM.

I have been reading the prologue to ADWD. There George reLly lingers on how the Eagel Orell/Varamyr was burned inside out.

First thing, as others noted, it reminds very much of the effect of th dragon horn.

Second thing: Based on this second read and on the Heresies, I'm taking it as a small hint on what Fire (Mel in this case) can do: Burning theor opponents from the inside out at quite a distance. And from what Varamyr tell, whe can absolutly exclude any envolvement of a fire arrow. Don't know, I mel theows fireballs, spells or if she just uses bad thougts. It looks like a bad and dangerous wappon, which we see use here for the first time by one single red priest.

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

I'll stop it here. I you aren't sattisfied or in a mood to teach me, go nuts on the internet. I'll be happy to learn :)

LOL, no. I only have doubts and questions in general. Although it might be worth another thread. I'll see what is out there.