Heresy 17

[hotweaselsoup]

Being lazy, too, I'm happy to go with this. Ice was not melted or reforged, but somehow split against its will and the two pieces were hammered into two blades, unwilling to accept the coloring. So basicaly Ice is still there, only split up and, so to say, scattered across the realm.

And for the fans of LOTR: There may come a time, when Nazil will be reforged :)

Mott's difficulty came not from splitting Ice, but in trying to infuse the red color into the blade. Here is the quote (Tywin is showing Tyrion the first sword):

Tyrion wondered where the metal for this one had come from. A few master armorers could rework old Valyrian steel, but the secrets of its making had been lost when the Doom came to old Valyria. "The colors are strange," he commented as he turned the blade in the sunlight. Most Valyrian steel was a grey so dark it looked almost black, as was true here as well. But blended into the folds was a red as deep as the grey. The two colors lapped over one another without ever touching, each ripple distinct, like waves of night and blood upon some steely shore. "How did you get this patterning? I've never seen anything like it."

"Nor I, my lord," said the armorer. "I confess, these colors were not what I intended, and I do not know that I could duplicate them. Your lord father had asked for the crimson of your House, and it was that color I set out to infuse into the metal. But Valyrian steel is stubborn. These old swords remember, it is said, and they do not change easily. I worked half a hundred spells and brightened the red time and time again, but always the color would darken, as if the blade was drinking the sun from it. And some folds would not take the red at all, as you can see. If my lords of Lannister are displeased, I will of course try again, as many times as you should require, but--"

"No need," Lord Tywin said. "This will serve."

"A crimson sword might flash prettily in the sun, but if truth be told I like these colors better," said Tyrion. "They have an ominous beauty . . . and they make this blade unique. There is no other sword like it in all the world, I should think."

I read through it a couple of times, but I didn't see anything that suggested Mott had trouble splitting Ice into two blades. He might have had, though, but decided that it wasn't worth mentioning to Tywin. :dunno:

Anyway, Ice and Fire in one blade, whittled down from a greatsword into a convenient longsword. And named Oathbreaker. Seems like it was custom-made for Jon.

[Tyryan Lannister]

Oh right, forgot that... Ice does not want to change, it has a will of it's own.

This gives me all kinds of creepy ideas as to how the Valyrian blades were once made... A poster (sorry can't remember who it was) once wrote that Lightbringer IS Nissa Nissa, her soul went into the blade, and will only come alive when she is back in hands she chooses. Hands that she somehow recognizes or deems worthy.

Of all the people who would have had no qualms about doing it, I would say that the Valyrians would be the ones to develop a system of magically sword making where you needed to sacrifice someone to make the sword. It would explain why no one has been able to discover how it's done: in order to prevent massive uprising from "good" minded people, the blacksmiths who could make Valyrian steel chose not to reveal that they needed to sacrifice people to do it; the Doom occurs, and they all die; since they didn't reveal this secret to anyone out of fear that they would face immense social prosecution, this secret is lost, and no one ever thinks to do such an inhuman thing.

[Tyryan Lannister]

Mott's difficulty came not from splitting Ice, but in trying to infuse the red color into the blade. Here is the quote (Tywin is showing Tyrion the first sword):

I read through it a couple of times, but I didn't see anything that suggested Mott had trouble splitting Ice into two blades. He might have had, though, but decided that it wasn't worth mentioning to Tywin. :dunno:

Anyway, Ice and Fire in one blade, whittled down from a greatsword into a convenient longsword. And named Oathbreaker. Seems like it was custom-made for Jon.

Isn't it named Oathkeeper?

[Harland Flint]

A hinge is a movable part, which, though moving, stays, where it is.

The peculiar thing about a hinge is, that, while it allows or even enables movement, itself never moves, but is the one fixed point around which movement happens.

As in the Wall stays. Winter can be allowed thrugh it, man can be allowed through it, the whole world can turn around it, but the Wall stands still.

I'd always thought of the Wall-Hinge as: There are two realms, like tectonic plates, that are joined at and pivot along the axis of the Wall. If you destroy the Wall, then the realms/tectonic plates will drift apart or into each other.

SoMA got me thinking that there is another interpretation, the realms are not separate, they're one continuous area, and the Wall is a hinge for a magical "door" that separates the LoAW from The North.

If the Wall is the hinge of a door, then it could be the "front door" to the home of the Westerosi, the Horn of Winter is the key, and blowing it accords an invitation with guest rights to the Others (?)

[hotweaselsoup]

Isn't it named Oathkeeper?

I think it bears both names.

[7V3N]

Yes, I think this is an interesting comparison.

Both masters of whisperers.

BR had his thousand eyes spying for him, literal ravens I assume.

Varys has his multitude of "little birds", the children living in the Walls and around the world.

The two work for the good of the realm, or pretend to, as you say BR seems more sincere. I don't trust Varys to mean he is doing it for the children. I basically feel like Varys is a bleak copy of BR, but no one can say Varys don't work hard for his goals and is a real master in his trade.

BR also used dwarves (dwarfs?) as spies/agents, as evident in The Mystery Knight. I think he was like Varys, but with ultimate warg ability. So he had ravens, wolves, and possibly even a cat that we know two royal children have been quite fond of.

While I was at work, you guys went 2-3 pages. I fear I'll soon fall far behind again :(

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

Indeed, there seems to be a certain amount of putting the cart before the horse in this. Its not going to be a matter of identifying somebody as AA by a curious birthmark, handing them a sword and sending them forth to do battle. The prophecy says that in time of darkness etc there will be a warrior, and that's what we're going to see; somebody is going to go slaying the Others right left and centre and an astonished populace is going to raise up their hands and say: Wow lookee here; he/she is just like AA come again!

So are you guys saying you do not believe any one person is pre-destined to be AA-Reborn? Whomever ends up leading the fight at the time will become AA-Reborn?

That's an interesting way of looking at it... I can't say I share your opinion, however. I feel like that reduces AAR/PtwP to something not unlike a military rank - technically open to anyone... I'd like to think we're talking about specific individuals... with salvation/victory depending largely on them fulfilling their destiny....

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

OT: In the appendix for Dance, under Beyond the Wall, it lists this: "JOJEN REED, her brother, thirteen cursed with greensight."

Anyone have any thoughts on why the word cursed is used?

Aren't we told that those given the gift of green sight must pay for it with shorter life spans?

As for the Black Blood...I agree there are at least two uses....

1. Nights Watch - "Blood runs black" ... Not unlike a fan of the Baltimore Ravens saying "I bleed purple and black" ... a sign of allegiance/loyalty.

2. Literal black blood.... stemming from infection/death

---------------------

On Ice & reforging...

UnCat,

I fear I must offer a dissenting opinion..

Doesn't Master Mott claim to know enough of the spells/metallurgy lore to rework the metal? I agree it can't be melted down like any old piece of metal.... that's why only a precious few armorers can even manipulate the Valyrian Steel, much less create more. It also wouldn't be unreasonable to suggest that Mott's spells experienced a marked increase in effectiveness... similar to what the Pyromancers experienced with Wildfire.

(This is a perfect example of the kind of minutie which I highly doubt GRRM spent any length of time pondering, but it certainly gives us something to do.)

I always envisioned something not unlike the less-than-book-accurate account of Elrond reforging Anduril - The Flame of the West in the Return of the King LotR film... (I must say, that sword name certainly beats the pants off of "Ice" or stupid Joffrey's "Hearteater".

I offered the Ice as Lightbringer thing as a crackpot toss-out theory... when I first read it, I thought the red was from Ned's blood.

EDIT - Thanks for the quote above about the Valyrian steel... that's what I get for not reading all the new posts before putting up a reply.

EDIT EDIT - Those greatswords are pretty formidible weapons... i forget who was asking. Only big strong fellas can use them effectively. Slower and shieldless, but incredibly powerful... not unlike Robert & his WarHammer... but where the warhammer is for crushing, the greatsword is for cleaving and crushing. When one fights with a greatsword, the fighting stance is usually holding it over one's head and tilted back... the weight of the weapon combined with the height adds speed and momentum to the downward stroke. It looks like a caricature of swordfighting when you first see it, but that's really how they did it.

[Tyryan Lannister]

So, I'm wondering, is it ever mentioned what type of weapon Rhaegar used at the Trident? We know that he was smashed in by Robert's Warhammer, but IIRC we never learn what weapon he used; similarly, we know of two of (what I'm supposing was) three swords wielded by Aegon and sisters: Blackfyre being wielded by Aegon, Dark Sister belonging to Visenya. However, we know nothing of Rhaenys' weaponry beyond her dragon, Meraxes. I would find it odd that she didn't have a sword of her own as well; of course, if this is the case, where is it? We know that Blackfyre came to be held by Daemon et al., so it's probably in possession of the Golden Company or Illyrio right now. As to Dark Sister, all we know is that BR was the last known wielder. But what of Rhaenys' supposed sword?

The reason I ponder this is because, during and after the Blackfyre rebellion, King Daeron wouldn't have had a family sword if Rhaenys didn't have one to pass on; as this would be the case, why would he give Dark Sister to Bloodraven instead of keeping it for himself? He must have had one of his own, which I speculate was Rhaenys'. I feel that this sword became the new hereditary sword of the house, and that eventually Rhaegar bore it in battle.

But the question would still remain: what happened to this sword after the trident? Even with it being a reminder of the Targs, this is one thing that I can't see Robert having done away with, because A ) Valyrian steel, especially crafted into a sword, is extremely valuable, B ) Robert could further add to his claim to the throne by saying that he is now in possession of the Targ hereditary sword, and C ) you have the weapon of Rhaegar, arguably one of the greatest warriors of your time (granted Robert was as well); why not keep it and parade it around as a sign of your strength?

I just find it very, very suspicious that we know nothing of this weapon. At all. Whatsoever. It reeks of either enormous oversight by GRRM (possible but I feel highly unlikely) or an extremely important thing that will come up in the future.

[Uncat]

Mott's difficulty came not from splitting Ice, but in trying to infuse the red color into the blade. Here is the quote (Tywin is showing Tyrion the first sword):

I read through it a couple of times, but I didn't see anything that suggested Mott had trouble splitting Ice into two blades. He might have had, though, but decided that it wasn't worth mentioning to Tywin. :dunno:

Anyway, Ice and Fire in one blade, whittled down from a greatsword into a convenient longsword. And named Oathbreaker. Seems like it was custom-made for Jon.

Well, that sword was underway to Sansa, our newly elected Ice Queen. But you do know, who now has it? Yes, that's right, Ice pt.1 went home to Mommy Stark. I wonder, what she will do with it, and if she knows, what blade Oathkeeper once was part of.

[Uncat]

Of all the people who would have had no qualms about doing it, I would say that the Valyrians would be the ones to develop a system of magically sword making where you needed to sacrifice someone to make the sword. It would explain why no one has been able to discover how it's done: in order to prevent massive uprising from "good" minded people, the blacksmiths who could make Valyrian steel chose not to reveal that they needed to sacrifice people to do it; the Doom occurs, and they all die; since they didn't reveal this secret to anyone out of fear that they would face immense social prosecution, this secret is lost, and no one ever thinks to do such an inhuman thing.

Well, seeing, how the Unsullied are "made", I'd say, that someone would have carried on with the tradition if it just had been about killing someone for it. Human lives seem to be quite cheap in Essos and especially around the places, that once were Valyrian.

[Uncat]

I'd always thought of the Wall-Hinge as: There are two realms, like tectonic plates, that are joined at and pivot along the axis of the Wall. If you destroy the Wall, then the realms/tectonic plates will drift apart or into each other.

SoMA got me thinking that there is another interpretation, the realms are not separate, they're one continuous area, and the Wall is a hinge for a magical "door" that separates the LoAW from The North.

If the Wall is the hinge of a door, then it could be the "front door" to the home of the Westerosi, the Horn of Winter is the key, and blowing it accords an invitation with guest rights to the Others (?)

Which reminds me of a question, that has been asked before on this threads: I the Wall is one of the hinges, where or what are the other ones?

[Uncat]

So are you guys saying you do not believe any one person is pre-destined to be AA-Reborn? Whomever ends up leading the fight at the time will become AA-Reborn?

<snip>

Pretty much. There are a lot of people, to which GRRM ascribres tom AAR "features". Basicaly saying: Nobody is destined to be the big champion. Someone will become it, because he cares to engage in this fight - knowingly or not or even because someone decides, that he or she is "it" and drives them into becoming "it"

[Black Crow]

I'd always thought of the Wall-Hinge as: There are two realms, like tectonic plates, that are joined at and pivot along the axis of the Wall. If you destroy the Wall, then the realms/tectonic plates will drift apart or into each other.

SoMA got me thinking that there is another interpretation, the realms are not separate, they're one continuous area, and the Wall is a hinge for a magical "door" that separates the LoAW from The North.

If the Wall is the hinge of a door, then it could be the "front door" to the home of the Westerosi, the Horn of Winter is the key, and blowing it accords an invitation with guest rights to the Others (?)

Its a useful way of putting it, but I'd a caveat. If we go along with the White Walkers as Sidhe proposition - and frankly there are just so many parallels with folklore about Faerie its very difficult not to - then yes, absolutely, the purpose of the Horn of Winter is not to make the Wall physically fall down but to invite the Sidhe through it.

The caveat is that there is no Stark in Winterfell. Can the horn only be blown by a Stark (and if so Jon is the only realistic candidate) or does the absence of a Stark in Winterfell mean that they can come through either without the horn being blown, or that anybody, such as Mance, can blow it?

[Black Crow]

There is another angle on this which occurred to me as I was writing the above - looking at some of the questions surrounding Bryn Blackwood, Mance Rayder (Mance Who the Raider?) and the ever mysterious Varys. The Starks, we think, may once have been client kings to the Sidhe. That position is currently vacant.

[Black Crow]

So are you guys saying you do not believe any one person is pre-destined to be AA-Reborn? Whomever ends up leading the fight at the time will become AA-Reborn?

That's an interesting way of looking at it... I can't say I share your opinion, however. I feel like that reduces AAR/PtwP to something not unlike a military rank - technically open to anyone... I'd like to think we're talking about specific individuals... with salvation/victory depending largely on them fulfilling their destiny....

Up to a point I agree, but that point is that the warrior will emerge because he or she is destined to lead the fight, not because Mel or anybody else successfully identifies and annoints them first, which is precisely why there are so many obvious and less obvious candidates floating around.

[hotweaselsoup]

Well, that sword was underway to Sansa, our newly elected Ice Queen. But you do know, who now has it? Yes, that's right, Ice pt.1 went home to Mommy Stark. I wonder, what she will do with it, and if she knows, what blade Oathkeeper once was part of.

Yeah, Stoneheart called the sword Oathbreaker. I think Brienne has it, unless Uncat is holding onto it until Brienne fulfills her part of the bargain vis a vis Jaime? Anyway, it has been drifting its way northward.

ETA: re whether Stoneheart recognizes the blade as Ice, I'm not sure. When she first has it before her, she seems to focus on the lion's head pommel. My gut is that she doesn't know. But Brienne knows - Jaime told her - so it might be that Brienne will tell her. Maybe not, though. Uncat is a bit of a loose cannon :D

There is another angle on this which occurred to me as I was writing the above - looking at some of the questions surrounding Bryn Blackwood, Mance Rayder (Mance Who the Raider?) and the ever mysterious Varys. The Starks, we think, may once have been client kings to the Sidhe. That position is currently vacant.

BC, I love ya, but I don't think everyone agrees with you here. Maybe you should stick to "I believe", rather than "we believe", when espousing your theories? Unless you were using the royal "we"? (Which is your right, of course, as you are King of the Heresies ;))

edit: itchy submit finger this morning apparently

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

Pretty much. There are a lot of people, to which GRRM ascribres tom AAR "features". Basicaly saying: Nobody is destined to be the big champion. Someone will become it, because he cares to engage in this fight - knowingly or not or even because someone decides, that he or she is "it" and drives them into becoming "it"

Up to a point I agree, but that point is that the warrior will emerge because he or she is destined to lead the fight, not because Mel or anybody else successfully identifies and annoints them first, which is precisely why there are so many obvious and less obvious candidates floating around.

I can agree with that. Melisandre cannot annoint someone from a crowd as AAR.... nor can anyone else for that matter. I think we're on the same page. I was interpretting your comments to mean that AAR was more or less a job that anyone could fill, provided they decided to lead a fight against the Dark/GreatOther/Enemy.

Would you agree that there is a person out there who's 'destiny' it is to become (or to fail &amp; not become) AAR?

For a minute there I was thinking you guys were of the opinion that the CEO of the Red Lot is travelling around the world w/ a "Hi, my name is: Azor Ahai Reborn" name tag in his pocket, in search of a decent chap to pin it on.

EDIT... re-reading my comment, I'm realizing how far in the weeds we are with the nuanced aspects of someone becoming AAR... so to clarify - or attempt to, at any rate - The red lot IS seeking out AAR, but at the same time, they can not annoint someone as AAR (they can try, and go through the motions, as Mel has done w/ Stannis, but her red team stamp of approval does NOT make it so).... AAR may exist, and may even be one of our POV characters... and the Red Team can recognize AAR as such, but they can not create AAR. Very tricky and very nuanced here, semantically.

[Harland Flint]

Which reminds me of a question, that has been asked before on this threads: I the Wall is one of the hinges, where or what are the other ones?

My thinking is that it depends on how we interpret the meaning of "hinge".

If the "hinge" keeps two realms together, then we could say that magic enters Westeros and Essos at these hinges, because a hinge is a weak point in a joint where a draught could get in. So that would suggest that magical places are hinges, places like Valyria and the Rhoyne, perhaps Oldtown, Pyke, Dragonstone, Asshai, depending on how magical these places are.

Or, if the hinge is part of a magical door that holds something back, then that would suggest that the other hinge is in Essos holding back the Shadow. If someone blew a hypothetical Horn of Summer, then that could turn the hinge in Asshai, opening the door and let forth the power of Fire (perhaps they already did and that's why there are Dragons in the world and Red Priests can make un-Cat and un-Beric anywhere they please while the Sidhe/Others are restricted to beyond the Wall for zombie creation)

Edited for clarity

[Eyron]

I can agree with that. Melisandre cannot annoint someone from a crowd as AAR.... nor can anyone else for that matter. I think we're on the same page. I was interpretting your comments to mean that AAR was more or less a job that anyone could fill, provided they decided to lead a fight against the Dark/GreatOther/Enemy.

Would you agree that there is a person out there who's 'destiny' it is to become (or to fail & not become) AAR?

For a minute there I was thinking you guys were of the opinion that the CEO of the Red Lot is travelling around the world w/ a "Hi, my name is: Azor Ahai Reborn" name tag in his pocket, in search of a decent chap to pin it on.

In a way I think that it exactly what the red priests are doing, but they are looking for a person that fits with what they gather are the signs of the AAR. They have a checklist, but they can't know who is destined to become AAR. Which means they could get it all wrong. They can't know who the AAR is until AAR performs the act that AAR is supposed to do. And I'm not 100% sure they even have that right, the AAR will fight the cold breath of darkness, but what darkness? I can see this being something other than the Others, and judging by the red priests actions, they seem to think it has little to do with the Others and Westeros, except for Mel.

As to if any one person is destined to be the AAR of prophecy, I'm not sure. Destiny is handled differently in different traditions. Destiny can be an end-point to which all things converge (but not time-specific), and the role of the one hero to get it done can be passed on. As in there will always be one but taking into account that there are opposing forces as in the case of ASOIAF, like the force in Star Wars, the hero can be corrupted. If destiny has declared an event to happen, another hero will arise and continue the legacy of the prophecied one.

And there is the possibility of prophecy just being a glimpse into a future that is not determined, as in perhaps there is no certainty to the AAR actually defeating the darkness, and the prophecy is a tool to prepare those that can become AAR, or intructions to create the circumstances that are necessary to be able to defeat the darkness. As in a self fulfilling prophecy.

Destiny is not always a straight path, is what I'm getting at. So there can be several heroes lined up, but one will eventually be the one to fit the role of destiny. I'm not a fan of deterministic prophecy as you can tell probably, but I don't want to derail this thread. There are threads about destiny and prophecy to take this to. From those threads I have gathered that this is a sensitive topic and that people have really differing views on this, and hold to those pretty strongly.