Heresy 17

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

Sidebar - has anyone ever read "Hero of 1000 Faces" by Joseph Campbell? If not, I recommend it. Quite an interesting book.

Examines the concept of The Hero in mythology & story-telling...

Destiny is not always a straight path, is what I'm getting at. So there can be several heroes lined up, but one will eventually be the one to fit the role of destiny. I'm not a fan of deterministic prophecy as you can tell probably, but I don't want to derail this thread. There are threads about destiny and prophecy to take this to. From those threads I have gathered that this is a sensitive topic and that people have really differing views on this, and hold to those pretty strongly.

You're WRONG. There's ONLY ONE HERO ((( and his name was ROBB!! And we're going to dig him up, strap some armor on what's left of his corpse, tie him to a horse and charge the enemy!))))

And you can go to HELL! YOU GO TO HELL AND YOU DIE!!

[Black Crow]

I can agree with that. Melisandre cannot annoint someone from a crowd as AAR.... nor can anyone else for that matter. I think we're on the same page. I was interpretting your comments to mean that AAR was more or less a job that anyone could fill, provided they decided to lead a fight against the Dark/GreatOther/Enemy.

Would you agree that there is a person out there who's 'destiny' it is to become (or to fail & not become) AAR?

For a minute there I was thinking you guys were of the opinion that the CEO of the Red Lot is travelling around the world w/ a "Hi, my name is: Azor Ahai Reborn" name tag in his pocket, in search of a decent chap to pin it on.

EDIT... re-reading my comment, I'm realizing how far in the weeds we are with the nuanced aspects of someone becoming AAR... so to clarify - or attempt to, at any rate - The red lot IS seeking out AAR, but at the same time, they can not annoint someone as AAR (they can try, and go through the motions, as Mel has done w/ Stannis, but her red team stamp of approval does NOT make it so).... AAR may exist, and may even be one of our POV characters... and the Red Team can recognize AAR as such, but they can not create AAR. Very tricky and very nuanced here, semantically.

Yuup, including the edit, that's pretty much how I read it. Doesn't stop the red lot trying though.

[Black Crow]

I agree with Eira's last post and might indeed be tempted to go a little further. The Red Lot believe that AA will be their champion, but what if he isn't? What if the warrior is not the champion of fire but the prince that was promised to put an end to this nonsense

[Tyryan Lannister]

Sidebar - has anyone ever read "Hero of 1000 Faces" by Joseph Campbell? If not, I recommend it. Quite an interesting book.

Examines the concept of The Hero in mythology & story-telling...

You're WRONG. There's ONLY ONE HERO ((( and his name was ROBB!! And we're going to dig him up, strap some armor on what's left of his corpse, tie him to a horse and charge the enemy!))))

And you can go to HELL! YOU GO TO HELL AND YOU DIE!!

Didn't the Astrapori already try this?

[Uncat]

Yepp, but it went south

[mrazny]

Prophecy business... Yeah it can get touchy for some. Unless something changed drastically in my 7 Heresy hiatus, this group is pretty good at dissenting without too much aggression.

I believe what Mel thinks is wrong from a few angles. She's wrong about who AAR is. She's wrong about what he's supposed to do. And she's wrong about what that's supposed to mean for the world. By that, I go back to the glamour piece. I believe she sees AAR as an agent to grow and glorify the cult of R'hlor. In that sense, AAR is also a symbol, and that's all she sees as to what matters right now. She believes the declared existence of AAR is a necessary aspect to the "good" he's supposed to do. A centerpiece to gather the strength of their cult. That's how she justifies the glamour of lightbringer, etc.

My other take on AAR I've probably stated a few times, but I guess I'll try to put a better context of it. Whomever fulfills the role will not *need* to believe the prophecy in order to fulfill it. It's not Neo in the Matrix, where once he accepts he's the "One" his powers come on. It might not be until his/her sword bursts into flames that they would ever consider that they are this particular agent.

I also wouldn't be surprised if it's less singular destiny and more that there ARE several candidates. Then depending on their deeds and accomplishments in life, and specifically *living* long enough, that they are then ready to fulfill the prophecy. In any case, I'm ok with GRRM taking the liberty to go at this from whatever angle he chooses.

[Uncat]

You know, actually, this whole AAR prophesie is ridiculous and anyone could have given it. Basically it says. A big mess will go down some day and somebody will find the balls to fight it. As for the salt and smoke part, that can be applied to almost anyone. Could be the housewife in her kitchen or someone, who had the idea, while doing a barbaque. This prophesie sounds terribly omniouse but actually it is at the same level as the horoscope of some yellow press paper. Georg must have had such a laugh, when he wrote it. I bet, he chuckled in his sleep the whole night through, dreaming on how his readers beat each other up, while trying to guess, who the hero will be.

Georg, it is one of the things I really love you for.

[Tyryan Lannister]

As for the salt and smoke part, that can be applied to almost anyone. Could be the housewife in her kitchen or someone, who had the idea, while doing a barbaque.

Snip

Maybe Renly was correct and the prophecy actually does refer to a ham :cool4: Or maybe King Robert was the Great Other and that boar was AAR

[7V3N]

I was just thinking about the burning of bodies (specifically stemming from thought on Robert Strong's head possibly being King Bob's). What if the dead bodies were burned traditionally not only because of the WW, but also because of the Red Lot's fire rezzing? Maybe in history it was decided by some people (Children, free folk, idk) that all sorts of body resurrection were inherently bad, and thus must be prevented.

[hotweaselsoup]

Snip

Maybe Renly was correct and the prophecy actually does refer to a ham :cool4: Or maybe King Robert was the Great Other and that boar was AAR

Well, Jon's body may end up stored with the salted and smoked meats inside the Wall. If he's resurrected there, technically it could be said that he was reborn amidst smoke and salt. How do you like them apples? :devil:

[Black Crow]

A lot depends on how you define "reborn" and relate it to prophecy. Aside from believing that Jon has a quite different destiny I really can't take seriously the notion that resurrection in a store-room filled with smoked and salted meats could be predicted so long long ago. OK theoretically it might happen but in a few short lines of prophecy something more dramatic or rather more decisive is called for.

If its talking about the actual birth of the hero who will grow up to be AA, then its already happened, long before GRRM mischievously took us into the store cellars, and if so Dany is the only one who fits, having been born on Dragonstone. On the other hand if its talking about a spiritual rebirth, its more than likely going to be Davos, reborn amidst the smoke and salt of the debacle on the Blackwater, in which case his destiny as the warrior will, as I suggested, be to put an end to the nonsense rather than espouse the cause of the Red Lot.

On balance though, I'm reckoning on Dany and her amazing dragons; the twist being that she's not coming to save the world by destroying it in the name of R'hllor, but as the champion of Fire will be unexpectedly met by the champion of Ice, the Knight of the Blue Rose.

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

The sword forging talk reminds me of the Strider riddle of Tolkien's... Now that's a proper prophesy.

All that is gold does not glitter,

Not all those who wander are lost;

The old that is strong does not wither,

Deep roots are not reached by the frost.

From the ashes a fire shall be woken,

A light from the shadows shall spring;

Renewed shall be blade that was broken,

The crownless again shall be king

I still prefer to think that only one person out there can be AAR... and much, if not all, depends on his (or maybe her, but most likely his) actions...

[Black Crow]

Nice catch and perhaps GRRM may have had that in the back of his mind, and I agree that there is just one character out there destined to become AA (or whatever the name or title is in the common tongue of Westeros), but the point is, as I think we both agree, that said character will become AA through his or her actions rather than being told they are the one and that its time to go out and start slaying in the name of R'hllor.

[7V3N]

I think we are taking "salt and smoke" too literally. I think it means two things: fire and seawater. This fits in with TPWWP (fire) and "what is dead may never die" (drowned god).

[Eyron]

You're WRONG. There's ONLY ONE HERO ((( and his name was ROBB!! And we're going to dig him up, strap some armor on what's left of his corpse, tie him to a horse and charge the enemy!))))

And you can go to HELL! YOU GO TO HELL AND YOU DIE!!

:laugh: Why do I hear Cartmans voice? I'm not fat! I'm big boned. (In case anyone is wondering, from Southpark)

While we're at it, let's examine the evidence of Aegon vs. Fake!Aegon, or if Cat/Sansa is the evilest vile woman/girl to ever set foot in the Westeros! Those topics never provided any controversy at all...

I agree with Eira's last post and might indeed be tempted to go a little further. The Red Lot believe that AA will be their champion, but what if he isn't? What if the warrior is not the champion of fire but the prince that was promised to put an end to this nonsense

That is what I'm thinking too, prophecy should not be about a certain family's survival or certain groups domination, but about the world's fate. I also think the prophecy is about a champion of all people, and the red lot got it wrong.

Well, Jon's body may end up stored with the salted and smoked meats inside the Wall. If he's resurrected there, technically it could be said that he was reborn amidst smoke and salt. How do you like them apples? :devil:

I love this theory to bits! Ever since someone posted it, or rather the first time I read it, I've thought this is the best way George could pull this propechy off hands down. Just down to earth stuff, I love that.

Considering the prophet probably only saw and felt a glimpse of the future while having his/her epiphany, smoke and salt could simply be the strong sense he/she had of the surroundings of the promised one being "reborn" and not any more spectacular stuff than that.

I also like Tze's theory that it is about smoke (the colour grey) and salt (the colour white) as in the hero will be reborn in those colours, perhaps not the colours the original AA once wore.

The north in winter is a world of white and grey, mentioned in the text too. And the Stark colours obviously are white and grey. For one who never saw snow it could be seen as salt. For someone who never saw a rock of ice it could be seen as stone. The Wall for example is sometimes said to look like stone more than ice, in certain lights and weathers. The smoke could be regular smoke from a fire burning nearby, or from a house burning down.

Being reborn amidst smoke and salt can mean so many things, it can mean the wars and the "salt of the earth". The scum of the earth. Fitting, is it not? The Night's Watch perhaps.

On the other hand, thinking about it some more, salt in the meaning "the small folk", would point to Davos, or Jon (being a bastard) or any other born from the less than noble.

The nobles sit above the salt, the lesser work for their salt. Why have I not thought of this before? :bang: Duh...

And hws just wrote "worth their salt" a few posts ago... This comes from the same etymology...

[Black Crow]

Not to mention "salt of the earth"

[Eyron]

I did mention the salt of the earth! :D

[Eyron]

After the events of the Mystery Knight, did the Targaryens not salt the earth literally? So nothing could ever be grown there, in the Butterwell estate.

Perhaps a hint of the meaning of salt. Ever so subtle of course, but meant for those of us that like vague and unlikely connections? ;)

[Stark@heart]

Snip

Maybe Renly was correct and the prophecy actually does refer to a ham :cool4: Or maybe King Robert was the Great Other and that boar was AAR

I'll go one better - and way Crackpot for fun but what if...

AAR could be made. Mel has given Stannis all the trappings but cannot make the magic work for him because she's missing a crucial bit of info. The AAR has to die now (present day) and be re-born.

Thoros, the drunken fool of King Robert's court has already re-vived AA and even worse used him for the wrong purposes and .... now, the spirit of AA is residing in Lady Stoneheart and we're all screwed!

[Black Crow]

I did mention the salt of the earth! :D

Did indeed :blushing:

But back to the point, I still wonder, as I suggested above, whether Summerhall is of relevance here and whether the PWTP prophecy was originally thought of in terms of a prince who would restore the Valyrian Empire, but that whatever went horribly wrong convinced Aemon that Fire needed to be kept in check.

Going on from there we have the Ghost of High Heart, who is presumed to be one of the Children. What was she doing at Summerhall, and is she connected with Bloodraven/Bryn Blackwood's going north of the Wall?