Heresy 17

[Black Crow]

Back to the North...

At first we're told that the lands beyond the Wall are inhabited by Wildlings, who to first appearances are human, and apart from declarations about living free and refusing to kneel, are a bit of a puzzle. Why are they living in the badlands when there is so much empty land going begging south of the Wall. "Kneeling" could be a problem if it wasn't for what appears to be an innate respect, if not reverence for the Starks.

Then we find there are others gathered in by Mance. There are the Thenns, a lost human kingdom up in the Frostfangs, with real kings (magnars - same difference); there are the Inuit lookalikes with their sledges; there are Hornfoots, who appear human apart from that curious deformity of the feet, and of course there are the Giants, who to Jon's disappointment are more in the nature of Yeti than the giants of folklore.

Of those the Giants clearly belong to the Old Races, but the way the Inuit and Hornfoots are adapted to Winter suggests that they have always belonged up there and although probably numbered among the Old Races probably didn't flee up there when the Andals came. The Children/Singers on the other hand certainly did flee and although the human Wildlings are aware of them there doesn't seem to be much in the way of day to day contact.

I just feel there are a lot of balls in the air at this point and a real puzzle as to who's juggling them and why. The imminent onset of Winter held no terrors for Craster, as he was bound to the Sidhe, but why are the Hornfoots and the Inuit running, and why is Mance supposedly so sure that something bad is coming down the pike that he's not only spent years pulling them all together, but he's been able to persuade them to leave everything and follow him.

And what are Bryn Blackwood and the Singers doing all the while? Watching Bran obviously, and grooming him to take over as the next greenseer, because Winter is coming, but when it does what then? And why, with the timing of the assault on the First still raising suspicions, are they curiously blase about the terrible Sidhe.

You see everything we know about the Wildlings points to the human ones being the survivors of the lost kingdoms beyond the Wall, whether they survived like the Thenns, in a hidden valley up in the mountains, or whether they survived as people always do, hence Craster's little kingdom and the Wildling women lying with the Others in the Long Night to produce those terrible half human children. Then the rest, the hornfoots, the giants and the Inuit are again local, adapted to Winter. Why are they coming south now?

I'm not suggesting for a moment that all, or even many of them, are harbouring a secret plan that has been concealed for the last five books, but there's something going on we don't know about and I have to suspect that the Old Races are at last fighting back, and that in this the Singers, the Sidhe, Bryn Blackwood, Mance (who?), and ultimately the Starks are going to be on the same side, albeit the alliance is an uneasy one with a lot of cynical betrayal along the way.

[7V3N]

I've always thought of Brynden's journey to the CotF as a variation on the "hunting trips" elders would take during the long winters -- he was going to the death of his physical body to make room for a younger Lord Commander and to continue to serve the realm in another form.

A random Brynden/Bloodraven thought: when Winterfell is sacked and burned Summer sees a giant winged snake made of smoke rising over the burning castle. That could be just a poetic description of the fire, or it could be a reference to Bloodraven, a Targ/dragon who wore a cloak "the color of smoke" during his time as had of the king. I imagine that vision to be kind of a message to Bran saying "come to papa."

Could be, but I thought of it more as a physical object that Summer saw. Being: the bleeding star or a dragon.

It is unlikely, but there are clues--Osha says the noises were loud enough to wake a dragon, the hot pools under Winterfell--that hint at the presence of a dragon.

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

Some snipping may or may not have occurred here.

The conditions that are talked about in prophecies are like the ones you find in each daily newspaper, under the heading 'horoscope'.

If you think what the horoscope predicts became true, the conditions will match.

And as Black Crow and others have stated: a prophecy is made to be fulfilled, by actions, by claiming that it is you the prophecy is about.

Come ON now... MUST I POST THE LOTR STRIDER RIDDLE AGAIN?? Don't push me.... I'll do it. I swear to God, I'll do it!

This is fantasy.... It may not be High Fantasy, but fantasy it remains. We must put some stock into these prophesies.

Dragons from stone.... did we not see pieces of stone break apart and have dragons emerge?

[Budj]

Probably been mentioned before, but for someone in Essos stating a prophecy large sheets of ice could be compared to stone as I doubt ice frequents that section of the world.

[Black Crow]

Conversely much may depend on what is meant by dragons and whether its to be taken as literally waking big scaly monsters with wings and the ultimate in bad breath, or whether it refers to the other kind of dragons; the Targaryens, and if so why?

[7V3N]

Conversely much may depend on what is meant by dragons and whether its to be taken as literally waking big scaly monsters with wings and the ultimate in bad breath, or whether it refers to the other kind of dragons; the Targaryens, and if so why?

I was recently pondering this as well. We see in The Mystery Knight that the "dragons" may not be a literal dragon, and may refer to a Targaryen.

[Eyron]

My suggestion about the dragon waking from stone has been that it is referring to Jon, cold as stone, covered in ice over his black garb. What budj says above is what I've been saying to. To the prophet, sitting somewhere in the south of Essos, ice would look like stone.

The dragon [Jon] will be woken from stone ice.

[mrazny]

This is fantasy.... It may not be High Fantasy, but fantasy it remains. We must put some stock into these prophesies.

I'd dispute that we *must*. I don't think GRRM is specifically turning fantasy tropes on its head just for giggles, but moreso not being boxed in by the preconceived notions of Fantasy.

The whole story has been about perspectives, and how they shape the actions taken in this world. Prophecy is *not* limited to fantasy, or genre fiction. Prophecy's roots are in our real human history. How humans react to prophecy has a richer landscape than "let's see if readers can solve this riddle."

It may be both, a nice riddle for the readers to have some fun with too, but the characters are more important. Their choices are more important.

In any case, I personally believe that the prophecy is NOT of the utmost importance in the story, just a nice subplot within a HUGE plot.

[Black Crow]

I'd agree with that and suggest that its also a plot device to hide what's really going on.

If, just for the sake of argument, Ned Stark had taken Jon aside before packing him off to the Wall and said, this is for your own good son. Someday soon, when I'm gone, you are destined to become... (fill in as appropriate,) the story would be so much poorer, but at a deeper level I also suspect that because most readers are busy scrambling to pin the tail on their favorite donkey and proclaim him or her as Azor Ahai, they're not looking closely enough at what's going on in the background.

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

Conversely much may depend on what is meant by dragons and whether its to be taken as literally waking big scaly monsters with wings and the ultimate in bad breath, or whether it refers to the other kind of dragons; the Targaryens, and if so why?

But we DID get literal scaly monsters with wings from stone.... they didn't arrive big, but they're big now.

[Tyryan Lannister]

I'd agree with that and suggest that its also a plot device to hide what's really going on.

If, just for the sake of argument, Ned Stark had taken Jon aside before packing him off to the Wall and said, this is for your own good son. Someday soon, when I'm gone, you are destined to become... (fill in as appropriate,) the story would be so much poorer, but at a deeper level I also suspect that because most readers are busy scrambling to pin the tail on their favorite donkey and proclaim him or her as Azor Ahai, they're not looking closely enough at what's going on in the background.

Just gave me an idea: Some poor donkey that becomes Tyrion's horse is going to be "the donkey we pin the AA on" lol

But yeah I agree with this

[Uncat]

I'd dispute that we *must*. I don't think GRRM is specifically turning fantasy tropes on its head just for giggles, but moreso not being boxed in by the preconceived notions of Fantasy.

The whole story has been about perspectives, and how they shape the actions taken in this world. Prophecy is *not* limited to fantasy, or genre fiction. Prophecy's roots are in our real human history. How humans react to prophecy has a richer landscape than "let's see if readers can solve this riddle."

It may be both, a nice riddle for the readers to have some fun with too, but the characters are more important. Their choices are more important.

In any case, I personally believe that the prophecy is NOT of the utmost importance in the story, just a nice subplot within a HUGE plot.

Actually, picking up from your argument, the prophecies are a huge part of the plot. But not in the usual way, as riddles to be solved. They are rather driving forces. There are a lot of people in this books with a huge momentum and who are picking up on the prophesies, to give their momentum a direction. Take Danny. She has three dragons, ten thousand warriors and an enormous will for power. She decides solely on the basis of some prophesies, in which direction to carie that momentum. And that was true for the whole family Targ. The same goes for Mel. She has a will to power and means for it. She to decides her directions on those profesies. Stannis embarks om them, decided to use them, in order to gain momentum. So they have a complet different role from that, which prophesie usualy have. This even goes beyond the selffulfling thing.

[alienarea]

Back to the North...

At first we're told that the lands beyond the Wall are inhabited by Wildlings, who to first appearances are human, and apart from declarations about living free and refusing to kneel, are a bit of a puzzle. Why are they living in the badlands when there is so much empty land going begging south of the Wall. "Kneeling" could be a problem if it wasn't for what appears to be an innate respect, if not reverence for the Starks.

Then we find there are others gathered in by Mance. There are the Thenns, a lost human kingdom up in the Frostfangs, with real kings (magnars - same difference); there are the Inuit lookalikes with their sledges; there are Hornfoots, who appear human apart from that curious deformity of the feet, and of course there are the Giants, who to Jon's disappointment are more in the nature of Yeti than the giants of folklore.

Of those the Giants clearly belong to the Old Races, but the way the Inuit and Hornfoots are adapted to Winter suggests that they have always belonged up there and although probably numbered among the Old Races probably didn't flee up there when the Andals came. The Children/Singers on the other hand certainly did flee and although the human Wildlings are aware of them there doesn't seem to be much in the way of day to day contact.

I just feel there are a lot of balls in the air at this point and a real puzzle as to who's juggling them and why. The imminent onset of Winter held no terrors for Craster, as he was bound to the Sidhe, but why are the Hornfoots and the Inuit running, and why is Mance supposedly so sure that something bad is coming down the pike that he's not only spent years pulling them all together, but he's been able to persuade them to leave everything and follow him.

And what are Bryn Blackwood and the Singers doing all the while? Watching Bran obviously, and grooming him to take over as the next greenseer, because Winter is coming, but when it does what then? And why, with the timing of the assault on the First still raising suspicions, are they curiously blase about the terrible Sidhe.

You see everything we know about the Wildlings points to the human ones being the survivors of the lost kingdoms beyond the Wall, whether they survived like the Thenns, in a hidden valley up in the mountains, or whether they survived as people always do, hence Craster's little kingdom and the Wildling women lying with the Others in the Long Night to produce those terrible half human children. Then the rest, the hornfoots, the giants and the Inuit are again local, adapted to Winter. Why are they coming south now?

I'm not suggesting for a moment that all, or even many of them, are harbouring a secret plan that has been concealed for the last five books, but there's something going on we don't know about and I have to suspect that the Old Races are at last fighting back, and that in this the Singers, the Sidhe, Bryn Blackwood, Mance (who?), and ultimately the Starks are going to be on the same side, albeit the alliance is an uneasy one with a lot of cynical betrayal along the way.

We also need to investigate why the CotF are dwindling and apparently can't do anything against it and what their "the direwolves will be last, but finally they'll have to go, too" statement means.

Are the old races including direwolves all dying because of some climate change, virus, whatever? Have the Others started some major terraforming? Or are the direwolves an equivalent for the Starks like dragons are for Targaryens? Meaning ultimately all humans (on Westeros?) must die?

[Black Crow]

Or is Mance leading the last hurrah of the old races?

[Black Crow]

I sometimes think we're going to run out of steam sometime soon, but this is the fastest moving thread so far. I'll let it run for another half hour or so and then launch Heresy 18 - with new and improved introduction

[mrazny]

Actually, picking up from your argument, the prophecies are a huge part of the plot. But not in the usual way, as riddles to be solved. They are rather driving forces. There are a lot of people in this books with a huge momentum and who are picking up on the prophesies, to give their momentum a direction. Take Danny. She has three dragons, ten thousand warriors and an enormous will for power. She decides solely on the basis of some prophesies, in which direction to carie that momentum. And that was true for the whole family Targ. The same goes for Mel. She has a will to power and means for it. She to decides her directions on those profesies. Stannis embarks om them, decided to use them, in order to gain momentum. So they have a complet different role from that, which prophesie usualy have. This even goes beyond the selffulfling thing.

I actually think we're closer to on the same page, and its more semantics to what's important and why. The characters perspectives on prophecy are VERY important. Perhaps even certain characters "solving" the riddle will have its own importance.

[Black Crow]

O-kaay...

That's it folks, Heresy 18 launching in a few seconds

[Uncat]

I actually think we're closer to on the same page, and its more semantics to what's important and why. The characters perspectives on prophecy are VERY important. Perhaps even certain characters "solving" the riddle will have its own importance.

:agree:

(had to say it, before makin th jump to 18.

[FanTasy]

Back to the North...

At first we're told that the lands beyond the Wall are inhabited by Wildlings, who to first appearances are human, and apart from declarations about living free and refusing to kneel, are a bit of a puzzle. Why are they living in the badlands when there is so much empty land going begging south of the Wall. "Kneeling" could be a problem if it wasn't for what appears to be an innate respect, if not reverence for the Starks.

Then we find there are others gathered in by Mance. There are the Thenns, a lost human kingdom up in the Frostfangs, with real kings (magnars - same difference); there are the Inuit lookalikes with their sledges; there are Hornfoots, who appear human apart from that curious deformity of the feet, and of course there are the Giants, who to Jon's disappointment are more in the nature of Yeti than the giants of folklore.

(snip)

Of those the Giants clearly belong to the Old Races, but the way the Inuit and Hornfoots are adapted to Winter suggests that they have always belonged up there and although probably numbered among the Old Races probably didn't flee up there when the Andals came. The Children/Singers on the other hand certainly did flee and although the human Wildlings are aware of them there doesn't seem to be much in the way of day to day contact.

You see everything we know about the Wildlings points to the human ones being the survivors of the lost kingdoms beyond the Wall, whether they survived like the Thenns, in a hidden valley up in the mountains, or whether they survived as people always do, hence Craster's little kingdom and the Wildling women lying with the Others in the Long Night to produce those terrible half human children. Then the rest, the hornfoots, the giants and the Inuit are again local, adapted to Winter. Why are they coming south now?

Nice summary of the population north of the Wall.

About the wildlings:

There was an interview with GRRM where he was asked if the wildlings were like humans. He answered "they are humans".

We know that there have been struggles between the rulers of the North (Starks) and kings beyond the Wall. The folks way up in the North probably considered themselves the genuine people of the North and saw the Starks as southerners. As Ygritte tells Jon: it depends where you stand when you look at things. I always thought the wildlings were men of the North, who happened to be north of the Wall when this was raised to keep either folks from the North (as is the folklore) getting south, or (when in my heretic mode) folks from the South getting north.

What is odd is that the Starks, claiming to be the Kings of the North, would have accepted that a fair amount of people and lands that enabled a fair amount of people to exist, would not be part of their kingdom. They just seemed interested in keeping them out of the lands south of the Wall. Why? Generally rulers tend to expand their rule and their dominion. Why did the Kings of Winter 'give up' on all those people and resources that could have been theirs?

Was it just poor intelligence, that they didn't know how many people lived there? Or was it that it was convenient to have folks living there, for the Others to prey on? If so, the Wall was not just a way to keep the Others from getting south but as well to keep the wildlings, giants and others races there from getting south.

About the Others: they could have been named like that because they were 'other' than humans. We have discussed in one of the earliest Heresy threads if the term 'others' could be a generic term, for all the non-human races, including the Children of the Forest. But I guess GRRM put a lid on this, when he talked in an interview about the Others, clearly meaning the creatures that are also labelled as the 'white walkers'.

About the Children: we are told that they fled migrated north and that this was because they fled. If this is how the Children came to live beyond the Wall this seems to be a bit odd. It seems a bit of a coincidence that they were not living up North before the Wall was raised. So I guess Children from the South fled to places were other Children still managed to survive - and possibly were left alone there. Or maybe they served a function, to control the Others or keeping them from getting too much power.

In this respect the Wall seemed to serve many purposes, isolating all kinds of people, human and non-human alike.

What bugs me is: do the wildlings know that the Children live beyond the Wall? If so, did Mance try to get them to join him, when he was on his mission to form a coalition? The tale of the Children must be known to Mance and to other wildlings like Ygritte, who seems to know so much.

I don't remember reading about Mance or Ygritte talking to Jon about the Children, but I can be mistaken of course.

If they don't know the Children live there, the question is: why? Why would the Children keep it so secret? Are they still afraid of persecution? And why would ithe wildlings and the other folks that live beyond the Wall consider the Children enemies?

[FanTasy]

Some snipping may or may not have occurred here.

Come ON now... MUST I POST THE LOTR STRIDER RIDDLE AGAIN?? Don't push me.... I'll do it. I swear to God, I'll do it!

This is fantasy.... It may not be High Fantasy, but fantasy it remains. We must put some stock into these prophesies.

Dragons from stone.... did we not see pieces of stone break apart and have dragons emerge?

True, but I think it happened because Dany believed the prophecy was about her - and acted on this belief.

ETA I'm referring to the prophecy of dragons returning to earth after the moon was kissed by the sun, which we know she heard in AGOT before she got the idea. I'm not sure she knew about the AA / TPTWP prophecy by then. It is not mentioned I guess, but this could have been in the books she got from Jorah. And Viserys clearly told her about the Targaryen's ambitions to hatch dragons.

ETA2 ... and thinking a bit further along the controversial paths of prophecy ... if Dany did not know about the prophecy of waking dragons from stone ... after she had done it, the conditions would be matched, like in horoscopes. She would think: hey, I was born amidst fire smoke and salt ... and by the way, where is that flaming sword ...