stanprollyright Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 You're WRONG. There's ONLY ONE HERO ((( and his name was ROBB!! And we're going to dig him up, strap some armor on what's left of his corpse, tie him to a horse and charge the enemy!))))IIRC the Brotherhood tried that but the Freys fucked with his corpse too much, hence why they resurrected Cat instead.I'll go one better - and way Crackpot for fun but what if...AAR could be made. Mel has given Stannis all the trappings but cannot make the magic work for him because she's missing a crucial bit of info. The AAR has to die now (present day) and be re-born.Thoros, the drunken fool of King Robert's court has already re-vived AA and even worse used him for the wrong purposes and .... now, the spirit of AA is residing in Lady Stoneheart and we're all screwed!This actually fits thematically with Jon being AA: Cat (who HATED Jon) has to give him the kiss of life for the perfect irony. My mind goes to the scene where Robb tells Cat he wants Jon to be legitimized as his heir... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheese Pudding Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 What if AAR is not yet born? Like, someone can't be born already as AA, but the person that "saves the world" again will be AAR. Like a title. But to "save the world" the person will need Lightbringer and etc.The problem of this interpretation is that it does not include TPWWP, because if TPWWP = AA, then one can be known as AAR when is born. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stark@heart Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 I think Dany is TPTWP and AA is the Red Lot's take on what happened in the past and presumable what is happening now.They, in their zeal and with their powers, are working to find or produce the result of a prophecy of something they do not really understand and are not needed to assist with in any case.And will only make things worse - like Mel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sword Of Mid Afternoon Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 I do hope everyone realized that I didn't really want anyone to go to hell and/or die... twas but an attempt at levity.A lot depends on how you define "reborn" and relate it to prophecy. Aside from believing that Jon has a quite different destiny I really can't take seriously the notion that resurrection in a store-room filled with smoked and salted meats could be predicted so long long ago. OK theoretically it might happen but in a few short lines of prophecy something more dramatic or rather more decisive is called for.Agreed, BUT....Most if not all of the "Amidst Salt and Smoke", "Red Star Bleeding" instances we've come up with are similarly outrageous...Speaking of Red Stars Bleeding... I never hear anyone anywhere discuss the fact that there was a red comet in the sky when Aegon son of Rhaegar was conceived. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Striker83 Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 Does it say where or who spoke the prophecy of AA?Was the priests of Red Lot who came up with it or they just heard it and because the prophecy mentions fire and a red sword they think it belongs to their God?About Jon, if he is song of ice and fire, I think he will end fighting the Others and the Red Lot, maybe even Daenerys. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eyron Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 But back to the point, I still wonder, as I suggested above, whether Summerhall is of relevance here and whether the PWTP prophecy was originally thought of in terms of a prince who would restore the Valyrian Empire, but that whatever went horribly wrong convinced Aemon that Fire needed to be kept in check.Going on from there we have the Ghost of High Heart, who is presumed to be one of the Children. What was she doing at Summerhall, and is she connected with Bloodraven/Bryn Blackwood's going north of the Wall?Well, on of my more outrageous theories was that Rhaegar was the Prince that was Promised, and he actually did what he had to do... Considering he was ever only a prince, never a king, and he (probably) joined the forces of Ice and Fire when (I assume) begetting a child with Lyanna. A child that will perhaps be the one to settle the imbalance of the world and be the AAR... But yeah, I recognize the improbability of this.What I'm thinking is that the Targaryens thought that dragons would restore them, and make them whole again, but what really needs to be done is to restore the imbalance they created when waking the dragons from the fires in Valyria, so they need to set the world right. The dragons need to be back into their original form, habitat and not intermingle with humans... There were probably always dragons, but the ones we see today are not as they are supposed to be. They bring destruction.The Ghost of High Heart I have speculated, was the teacher/mentor or a relative to Brynden Blackwood. High Heart is quite close to Raventree Hall, and I think Bloodraven must have had some influence to become what he is today. Perhaps it was a crow dream, or perhaps he had someone tell him all about the Children, the Old gods and how to make use of all those ravens who sat in the tree at Raventree Hall every night.I do hope everyone realized that I didn't really want anyone to go to hell and/or die... twas but an attempt at levity.At least I did, so not to worry :)When it's not blindingly obvious that I am joking I usually put an appropriate emoticon after so there can (hopefully) be no misunderstanding ;)Speaking of Red Stars Bleeding... I never hear anyone anywhere discuss the fact that there was a red comet in the sky when Aegon son of Rhaegar was conceived.Um, again I think this has a little to do with a sensitive topic. When is a human "born" really, when conceived, at birth, or at whatever trimester... It's very touchy to say the least.And also, perhaps there was not a red comet at Aegons birth conception, perhaps it was a meteor or something. When Maester Cressen sees the comet it seems to be something really extraordinary and something he never saw before, and he get's all worried about it. And up in Winterfell Old Nan says it means dragons, so if it has been seen before, quite recently in her lifetime, why would she think this specific time it meant dragons? Makes me think this recent comet is something new, and if there was one during Aegons conception it was something else.ETA: was the comet during Aegons conception said to be red? If not it could have been another comet, nor the red one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7V3N Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 Speaking of Red Stars Bleeding... I never hear anyone anywhere discuss the fact that there was a red comet in the sky when Aegon son of Rhaegar was conceived.Cause nobody listens to me :frown5: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romantic Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 If we're proposing possible AA candidates what about Sandor? Saltpans was torched while he lay dying and he was blamed for it. He has, hopefully, been reborn psychologically. Not saying he definately is but IMO he should remain in consideration.On another topic, with all the discussion a few pages back about lots of things that happened about 1000 years ago. Could that have been a time of Summer/Summer when fire (and fire dragons) was at its most powerful? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sword Of Mid Afternoon Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 I've made it this far in life without using an emoticon... I'm not about to start.On Summerhall... from Aemon, I got the impression that he made the first cognitive leap towards applying the PtwP prophesy to his day and age after the tragedy at Summerhall. Also...I'm not sure if we mentioned this specifically earlier... I know we danced around it...Bloodraven was sent to the wall in 233AL; the Summerhall incident occurred in 259 AL. How much do you want to bet that Bloodraven disappeared in 259AL? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lysmonger Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 I've made it this far in life without using an emoticon... I'm not about to start.On Summerhall... from Aemon, I got the impression that he made the first cognitive leap towards applying the PtwP prophesy to his day and age after the tragedy at Summerhall.Also...I'm not sure if we mentioned this specifically earlier... I know we danced around it...Bloodraven was sent to the wall in 233AL; the Summerhall incident occurred in 259 AL. How much do you want to bet that Bloodraven disappeared in 259AL?I am betting this is true... and Bloodraven may have done something slightly amoral to get rhaegar to come of existence.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sword Of Mid Afternoon Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 I am betting this is true... and Bloodraven may have done something slightly amoral to get rhaegar to come of existence....Possible.... though I was heading somewhere slightly different. Bloodraven presumably had some input (perhaps collaboratively with Aemon as well?) on the chain of events that led up to whatever transpired at Summerhall... he was confident his actions would wake a stone dragon, perhaps usher in the PtwP, and produce the means to survive a future danger & conflict the importance of which cannot be overstated... The Battle for the Dawn (orrr something along those lines) ...Unfortunately for everyone involved, Summerhall was an epic catastrophe... almost all participants were killed, including both king and heir, Summerhall itself was destroyed, as were the hopes and prayers of Bloodraven and/or Aemon. By 259 AL, Brynden Rivers is several decades removed from the Hand of the King we met in The Mystery Knight, full of vitality, vigor & energy... Brynden is now 84 years old. No doubt Brynden had hoped Summerhall would leave Westeros well equipped to handle the darkness and danger he predicts is coming...... he would then be able to end his first life in peace... move on to the bucolic "Second Life" of wargs we were introduced to in ADwD's prologue**.As we all know, Summerhall did not work out. Far from strengthening the Targ/7 Kingdom's situation, Summerhall greatly weakened it. No Dragons, a strong king and crown prince both killed, a total disaster. Bloodraven's plans fell apart and he had to come up with a plan B in short order. How to remain alive.... and yet still able to influence people and events....? Can't do that from a Second Life. Either through his knowledge as a warg/greenseer/greendreamer, or perhaps through somehow making contact with the CotF, he's presented with another option... the Weirwood throne. That would sustain his mind and body long enough to save the realms of men...**It very well could be that Bloodraven planned to go the weirwood throne route all along rather than a Varamyr-style Second Life. My evidence for the SecondLife part of the theory lies with fact that I got the distinct impression from the Bran chapters that were it not for the impending existential threat embodied in the "Heart Of Winter", BR would NOT have retained his present form as long as he has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncat Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 I do hope everyone realized that I didn't really want anyone to go to hell and/or die... twas but an attempt at levity.Agreed, BUT....Most if not all of the "Amidst Salt and Smoke", "Red Star Bleeding" instances we've come up with are similarly outrageous...Speaking of Red Stars Bleeding... I never hear anyone anywhere discuss the fact that there was a red comet in the sky when Aegon son of Rhaegar was conceived.Ohh, that has been discussed in Heresy... don't know, 5 or 6, I think. A lot of thoughts on if it could have been the same Red Comet, just farer away and thus smaller. Though, as far as I rember it, it only says, that there was a comet, that it was a red one. That's an assumption because Rheagar took it as the bleeding star. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncat Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 The Ghost of High Heart I have speculated, was the teacher/mentor or a relative to Brynden Blackwood. High Heart is quite close to Raventree Hall, and I think Bloodraven must have had some influence to become what he is today. Perhaps it was a crow dream, or perhaps he had someone tell him all about the Children, the Old gods and how to make use of all those ravens who sat in the tree at Raventree Hall every night..love it: Brydens very own Yoda! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sand Snake No. 9 Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 I've always thought of Brynden's journey to the CotF as a variation on the "hunting trips" elders would take during the long winters -- he was going to the death of his physical body to make room for a younger Lord Commander and to continue to serve the realm in another form.A random Brynden/Bloodraven thought: when Winterfell is sacked and burned Summer sees a giant winged snake made of smoke rising over the burning castle. That could be just a poetic description of the fire, or it could be a reference to Bloodraven, a Targ/dragon who wore a cloak "the color of smoke" during his time as had of the king. I imagine that vision to be kind of a message to Bran saying "come to papa." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted July 22, 2012 Author Share Posted July 22, 2012 ...with all the discussion a few pages back about lots of things that happened about 1000 years ago. Could that have been a time of Summer/Summer when fire (and fire dragons) was at its most powerful?Personally, yes, I think it was up to a point. As discussed there seems to be a suggestion that just as Faerie magic is strongest at dawn and dusk, the period between Winter and Summer is critical in establishing the character and duration of the new season. The Red Lot won that battle, the Children and other old races fled beyond the Wall and its been glorious summers and relatively short winters ever since. Now its dusk again and the Red Lot are getting ready to finish what Azor Ahai started. Yes there have been long winters in the intervening period, but for some reason there seems to be a feeling that this is going to be the biggie. Hence the all out effort by the Reds and the necessity for imposing a balance before the whole thing goes pear-shaped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncat Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 The sword forging talk reminds me of the Strider riddle of Tolkien's... Now that's a proper prophesy.All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost; The old that is strong does not wither, Deep roots are not reached by the frost. From the ashes a fire shall be woken, A light from the shadows shall spring; Renewed shall be blade that was broken, The crownless again shall be king I still prefer to think that only one person out there can be AAR... and much, if not all, depends on his (or maybe her, but most likely his) actions...doesn't it say, that there is the red sword of heros and he who clasps it shall be AA reborn. So it is basicaly there: He or she, who finds the balls to do pick up the job and swing the sword will be ( as in be praised as) Azor Ahai reborn.So Mel is not that wrong, actually: Hypotheticaly, Allmost anybody can become AAR. It is all about caring to do it. So she decides that Stannis is it and urges him along on the job. The speciall effects are only for the sake of thouse, she needs to take along, and who need such things to belive. At least, thats the way, she sees it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted July 22, 2012 Author Share Posted July 22, 2012 :agree:Which isn't to say that there's somebody out there who is destined to do it, but its the doing of it that will make him or her AA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sword Of Mid Afternoon Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 :agree:Which isn't to say that there's somebody out there who is destined to do it, but its the doing of it that will make him or her AAWhile we are all typing very similar things... I fear we are a bit divergent. Or I am, at any rate.By the by... I stuck my head into the General ASOIAF Forum... might I take a moment to say that there is a MUCH higher order of discourse in this DanceWithDragons forum than in the General forum.((((Total, total, total sidebar, forgive me for this, but it's been bugging me... didn't witnesses say that someone let the crazy adultfriendfinder-using gunman into the movie theater?? There's an acomplice that slipped through the authorities fingers.))) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FanTasy Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 So, harking back a few pages to the talk about BR and why he left the watch and such, I just came across this little thing in Dance (Bran 2 I believe--the chapter where he meets BR at the end): "Are you the three-eyed crow?" Bran hear himself say... "A...crow?" The pale lord's voice was dry. His lips moved slowly, as if they had forgotten how to form word. "Once, aye. Black of garb and black of blood."I take this to mean that there is at least something in his past that BR regrets having down/been a part of. Considering that he references it as he references his time on the Watch (he admits that he was once called a crow--which we know is a term used for the Watch--and that he was black of garb--granted, that isn't as indicative of the Watch considering that he always wore black, but...) I know it's a stretch, but I feel that this is BR admitted that he did something while on the Wall that he shouldn't have, and that this would be the direct reason for his having left.Interesting. I always read it as a strong suggestion that it is in fact Bloodraven:- pale lord : albino- black garb : he was a sworn brother of the Nights Watch, he once was a crow- black blood : a reference to that he is bastard-born (as Bolton talks about his bastard having black blood)ETA Oops. Sorry, Eira referred to this already, in post #306. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FanTasy Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 About AA being reborn: it is a prophecy, if you take it to literally ... well, Marwyn told Sam what will happen to a part of your body :devil:I always thought AA and TPTWP have to be seen as metaphors: in dire times there is need for a guy or girl to save to world.He or she will be the 'reborn' hero.The conditions that are talked about in prophecies are like the ones you find in each daily newspaper, under the heading 'horoscope'.If you think what the horoscope predicts became true, the conditions will match.And as Black Crow and others have stated: a prophecy is made to be fulfilled, by actions, by claiming that it is you the prophecy is about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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