Heresy 17

[Uncat]

It could be that Autumn and Spring do not actually exist. They are just the names men gave for the time that Winter/Summer drew away then Summer/Winter gained strength. So then we can just ignore them in the conversation.

ETA: And the fact that Bloodraven was thrown in the black cells by a Targ is enough to hesitate calling him a Targ loyalist.

Would not be the first man to change his mind about loyalities in a dungeon :)

[DragonSpawn]

I checked out the 'Blue Brains' thread btw... that's going nowhere fast! :) Not enough quotes yet to pick out substantial patterns to determine if eyes vary depending on if they are in control or are being controlled or a half-ling... I have my hunches but i will put that on the back-burner for now until more evidence presents itself and will scrap the BR connection for now too as i'm sure all Wights would only have one blue eye if controlled by him ... not two.. i think it's just an odd passage and hard to grasp given GRRM's choice of words and the strange thing that happens with Waymars eye... i'll be more careful in future how i interpret things :(

Regarding the Others and Craster - Why does Gilly still call them 'Crasters sons'... but in the show it suggests the Others kill the babies or is hinted at that they eat them? How do they go from babies to full grown sons? Could they be the same 5 or 6 Others that attack Waymar? (All are described as: "twins to each other" - hinting at common physical features which may come from Crasters incest). We also know from the childrens book that Ice Dragons are simply frozen water... the colder it is the bigger they can grow... could this result in accelerated growth for Craster sons... as it gets colder they grown bigger? Or do we assume that the 5 or 6 Others is the pro-logue were the real Others... and the sons are elsewhere and more closely resemble the wights? They were right next to a half frozen stream and that bloody 'cresent moon' is mentioned again... are they simply appearing out of the water and that is how they move around undetected? Is that why it's called the milk-water? All those spirits turning it into a Ghost-soup? :D It does after all stem from a melting glacier in the frost fangs... someone mentioned about the Wall melting during the summer and releasing magic back into the world... what about a slight variation on that being the glacier in the frost-fangs?

Regaring seasons... each season seems to be likened to a time of day:

Winter = Night (King of Winter)

Summer = Day (Queen of Summer / Dany?)

Spring = Morning (Sword of the Morning - Jaime?)

Autumn = Evening (The Evenstar - Brienne - A Hero from Evenfall who makes a name for herself during the Autumn period?)

Has anyone puzzled out yet what the 24 hour clock is yet? E.g. "The hour of the Wolf" = Midnight? Always felt there was some significance behind this - but couldn't tell if GRRM has been intentionally vague because he is trying to cover it up - or simply sees no value in it so hasn't bothered mapping it all out fully?

[Uncat]

All are described as: "twins to each other" - hinting at common physical features which may come from Crasters incest).

Oh no! It's the Clone Wars all over again! :lol:

[Elaena Targaryen]

On the seasons I know it's tempting to think of Asshai being connected to summer, Asshai is mysterious and we want to know more about it. But Valyria is The Lands of the Long Summer. This is where the dragons lived if you want to equate them on some level with the WW so it does make sense but I do wonder what or who to equate the Valyrians to maybe the northerners?

Something else on the seasons, kind of, is the song Tyrion always sings that I think might be a Myrish song called The Seasons of My Love...

I loved a maid as fair as summer with sunlight in her hair

I loved a maid as red autumn with sunset in her hair

I loved a maid as white as winter with moonglow in her hair

That is all I could find so no spring yet. I don't know why but I find the song interesting and I wonder if it has any significance. Can it be something like Dany = summer, Mel = autumn, Val = winter or could they be the mysterious women like the Night's Kings queen and the woman that gave Garin the cold kiss, something supernatural? I'm not sure about these ideas but I thought some of you might think of something interesting.

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

Bloodraven was in the black cells for a few years before he was sent to the wall. That sounds like an ineffective way to me if you just want to take the black. So maybe it was Aegon who knew that Bloodraven had a purpose at the wall and send him there when he became King. He could also influence Aemon to join him.

This would make sense because Aegon was in Winterfell and read a lot of prophecies and so he might know whats going on in the North. He could be the connection between Aemon, Bloodraven and Summerhall etc...

I've always been under the impression that he ended up there by chance... like you say, that's a fairly ineffective way to make it to the wall. Most folks who go into the black cells don't re-emerge. Ever. Suppose Aemon didn't end up joining the Night's Watch... BR might well have met an ignominious end in the bowels of the Red Keep.

Were it not for Aegon the Unlikely emptying the dungeons/prison towers to accompany Aemon (What an escort, eh? I'm sure Aemon felt very comfortable and happy on that trip), I don't think we would've heard much from Bloodraven post-Maekar.

((((Maekar seems like a fairly petty person, and a worse leader. Makes me think of Dunk & Egg in Sworn Sword.

Dunk: "He's locked himself away at Summerhall for a year... I'd call that sulking."

Egg: "He'd call it being wroth."

One of the better lines from the D & E novellas, which I've no doubt butchered.))))

[Dengeleng]

I think Dalla said to Jon, that "sorcery was a sword without a hilt. There is no safe way to grasp it." To me that sounds like not only magic itself is hard to handle, but also the results may vary. So even if the same person would do the same magic-trick twice (like looking into flames or burning vary's testicles) he may get different results.

That would also suggest that someone with a great master-plan (Bloodraven, CotF, Bran…etc) could get something out of it that he wasn't expecting. And the people who they are trying to manipulate still have their own free will.

There are many speculations here which sound very interesting and cool, but sometimes a bit over the top… in science when there is more than one possible explanation you should always pick the one with the least variables and assumptions.

[Uncat]

Black Crow brought that up before: BR being in an existencial crisis (psychologicaly and maybe even physicaly) down in the deepes dungeons would be the right time for certain crow with a spare eye tu turn up.

Him being send to the wall along with Aemon my have been just luck (a highborn prisioner, who had served the royal family well may have just been an obviouse choice. So it was mostly by chance, I guess.

[Uncat]

I think Dalla said to Jon, that "sorcery was a sword without a hilt. There is no safe way to grasp it." To me that sounds like not only magic itself is hard to handle, but also the results may vary. So even if the same person would do the same magic-trick twice (like looking into flames or burning vary's testicles) he may get different results.

That would also suggest that someone with a great master-plan (Bloodraven, CotF, Bran…etc) could get something out of it that he wasn't expecting. And the people who they are trying to manipulate still have their own free will.

There are many speculations here which sound very interesting and cool, but sometimes a bit over the top… in science when there is more than one possible explanation you should always pick the one with the least variables and assumptions.

Quite on your page. That is why I rather see Aemon behind the desastrouse atempts of the Targs to bring the dragons back. It is such an easy explanation. He was a very learned man, who would know the ancient prophesies of his house. He had some time to spare up there on the Wall. He was at perfectly good terms with his family and we know from him, that he and Rheagar were first agreed on that Rheagar was the PTW, but Rheagar then went of on his own tangent, thinking, that Aegon was The Boy. This pretty much implies, that he had been in touch with Rheagar back in the time.

Now, I don't want to imply a masterplan from the Maester on the Wall by this. I rather think, that one thing lead to another. The children were trying to be found by the Greenseer BR, Aemon was trying to figure out the prophesies and when BR became LC, the two of them would spend a lot of time together, conferring about the issues of the Watch, which would touch on the personal quests of both of them.

It's chance, encounters of sort, which lead to certains events, which again lead to others.

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

Has anyone puzzled out yet what the 24 hour clock is yet? E.g. "The hour of the Wolf" = Midnight? Always felt there was some significance behind this - but couldn't tell if GRRM has been intentionally vague because he is trying to cover it up - or simply sees no value in it so hasn't bothered mapping it all out fully?

Well, in this instances, I'm inclined to believe it's the same as ours. Unless we're given a specific deviation, that's been my inclination.

It occurred to me when I was thinking about the maps and such.... trying to determine the polar regions and what not... the hint that Westeros's Earth is not terribly dis-similar from ours (well, the first to pop into my mind, at any rate) comes from Mirri Maz Dur... "When the sun rises in the West, sets in the East..."

[hotweaselsoup]

On the seasons I know it's tempting to think of Asshai being connected to summer, Asshai is mysterious and we want to know more about it. But Valyria is The Lands of the Long Summer. This is where the dragons lived if you want to equate them on some level with the WW so it does make sense but I do wonder what or who to equate the Valyrians to maybe the northerners?

Yeah, I agree that Asshai is pretty much still a cipher. The only thing I connect it with at this point is the mysterious Shadow, and shadow-binding.

Regarding Valyria, I tend to equate the Dragonlords with the Kings of Winter. In other words, men who control great elemental power (fire and ice, respectively), and who perhaps let that power corrupt them.

[Dengeleng]

Now, I don't want to imply a masterplan from the Maester on the Wall by this. I rather think, that one thing lead to another. The children were trying to be found by the Greenseer BR, Aemon was trying to figure out the prophesies and when BR became LC, the two of them would spend a lot of time together, conferring about the issues of the Watch, which would touch on the personal quests of both of them.

It's chance, encounters of sort, which lead to certains events, which again lead to others.

Yes, that could be it. Even if they had problems with each other in the beginning and BR was a little bit pissed at his family, during the years they could have exchanged their knowledge. But i see the attempts of bringing back the dragons more as a family-obsession. Everyone of them could have that idea by himself (like the guy (or guys?) drinking wildfire)Maybe after the next D&E-Story we will know more about the rituals in the north and what Aegon knows about threats to come from there…

[Uncat]

Yepp, they tried it a lot and Aemon would have been the last one in a long row. Afterall, the Summerhall incidend wich was rather staged by Egg. I only think, that Egg might have shared his thoughts with Aemon or Aemon might have shared some thoughts he had with Egg. Again, I don't see Aemon as playing the other Targs but as the nice old uncle up at the Wall to whom you would turn to, if you need someone to share your wild ideas with. Egg wanted him as advisor and I'm he still corresponded with Aemon for advice and the same would go for Rheagar.

[DragonSpawn]

Well, in this instances, I'm inclined to believe it's the same as ours. Unless we're given a specific deviation, that's been my inclination.

It occurred to me when I was thinking about the maps and such.... trying to determine the polar regions and what not... the hint that Westeros's Earth is not terribly dis-similar from ours (well, the first to pop into my mind, at any rate) comes from Mirri Maz Dur... "When the sun rises in the West, sets in the East..."

I'm working on the same assumption - that there are 24 hours in a day, a year is 365 days, mainly because the lunar cycle matches ours... there are still moon phases... cresent - full etc... i just have the feeling like there is an Old God Calendar or Clock...

Instead of 1 o'clock... it's the hour of the Lion... instead of 2 o'clock it's the hour of the Snake, instead of midnight it's the hour of the Wolf... i just wondered if anyone had worked out the animal-time sequence?

[Dengeleng]

I always thought of the nights watch as a very isolated group. Up at the Wall the rest of the realm could forget you very easy and they really don't seem to be a part of the kingdom.

But Aemon beeing a maester - with his "own" ravens - and also a targ he may have had the privilege of contacts to his old life. Not sure if a maester is allowed to use the ravens for personal chat or just for official serving-their-lord-stuff (in this case nights watch business)?

[Efilnikufesin]

Has anyone puzzled out yet what the 24 hour clock is yet? E.g. "The hour of the Wolf" = Midnight? Always felt there was some significance behind this - but couldn't tell if GRRM has been intentionally vague because he is trying to cover it up - or simply sees no value in it so hasn't bothered mapping it all out fully?

Did a quick search and the hour of the wolf appears to be the hour before night becomes dawn.

http://en.wikipedia....our_of_the_wolf

http://wondersinthed...ur-of-the-wolf/

[Black Crow]

Yepp, they tried it a lot and Aemon would have been the last one in a long row. Afterall, the Summerhall incidend wich was rather staged by Egg. I only think, that Egg might have shared his thoughts with Aemon or Aemon might have shared some thoughts he had with Egg. Again, I don't see Aemon as playing the other Targs but as the nice old uncle up at the Wall to whom you would turn to, if you need someone to share your wild ideas with. Egg wanted him as advisor and I'm he still corresponded with Aemon for advice and the same would go for Rheagar.

Surely the obvious inference from this is that after it all went badly pear-shaped at Summerhall (fire consumes), Aemon realised that the raising dragons business was definitely not a good idea and wanted well out of it. As to Bryn Blackwood being decanted from jail to provide an escort for him going to the Wall, I can't help avoiding the suspicion it was all stage managed by Aegon and Bryn to get themselves both up to the Wall with the other prisoners/recruits just for cover.

[DragonSpawn]

Did a quick search and the hour of the wolf appears to be the hour before night becomes dawn.

http://en.wikipedia....our_of_the_wolf

http://wondersinthed...ur-of-the-wolf/

Thanks , these hours do seem to have some symbology but i was hoping for an interesting pattern to emerge... - i was googling other 'hours' and found a thread on this forum too! I'm reading that at the moment :) it doesn't look like enough of a comprehensive list... yet...

Ha! Just noticed this on a post by Alys Karstark:

June 2012 - 04:17 PM

I'm imagining that if the clock is going to be invented in Westeros, it would contain pictures of animals instead of numbers...

The Night King and 1000 Others like this

^^^ :bowdown: :lmao: :cool4:

[7V3N]

Perhaps BR did do something wrong, and chose to rot in the black cells. Then, he got a message from the then-3EC, and was convinced he needed to go to the Wall. So he took the black.

Or it could just be that him and Egg had a decent relationship so Egg extended him the offer to go with Aemon.

[Uncat]

Surely the obvious inference from this is that after it all went badly pear-shaped at Summerhall (fire consumes), Aemon realised that the raising dragons business was definitely not a good idea and wanted well out of it. As to Bryn Blackwood being decanted from jail to provide an escort for him going to the Wall, I can't help avoiding the suspicion it was all stage managed by Aegon and Bryn to get themselves both up to the Wall with the other prisoners/recruits just for cover.

Just what I think, but it is hard to argue it.

Still, it is an interesting pairing. The First Man heir and the man who combines the threads of pure fire with the knowledge of the maesters. Both moving to the end to the world and surviving there long enough to "see" the show begin. Aemon even suspects, that he would have made it a few more years, had he stayed at the Wall.

And if we forget for a moment, that there are the Dunk and Egg storys them things look like this:

Bran stumbles upon a man, of whom we first were told by Aemon and who came to the Wall with Armon. It is not a proof but it is a literary link big enough to walk on it.

So, yeay, Aemon is in with BR and advising th LCs after BR and that is why, Mormont knows some things.

[7V3N]

Just what I think, but it is hard to argue it.

Still, it is an interesting pairing. The First Man heir and the man who combines the threads of pure fire with the knowledge of the maesters. Both moving to the end to the world and surviving there long enough to "see" the show begin. Aemon even suspects, that he would have made it a few more years, had he stayed at the Wall.

And if we forget for a moment, that there are the Dunk and Egg storys them things look like this:

Bran stumbles upon a man, of whom we first were told by Aemon and who came to the Wall with Armon. It is not a proof but it is a literary link big enough to walk on it.

So, yeay, Aemon is in with BR and advising th LCs after BR and that is why, Mormont knows some things.

Unfortunately, Jon sent him off too quick and all he got was "kill the boy." I wonder how Aemon would have advised Jon during the wildling acceptance. Things from a PR perspective probably would have been much better.