Heresy 17

[DragonSpawn]

Hey guys... i thought i'd try and make my first contribution to this new thread relevant, short and important... not easy given that its been around so long but here goes...

Bloodraven is Crasters father!

Evidence... Crasters sons (assumption?) attack Waymar Royce (What a legend by the way!! I keep forgetting how cool he is despite being just 18 and on his first ranging!! So easy to mis-judge him from his youthful arrogance) in the pro-logue to the first book... There was this small bit that shows the link...

"Ser Waymar Royce stood over him. His fine clothes were a tatter, his face a ruin. The shard from his sword transfixed the blind white pupil of his left eye. The right eye was open, the pupil burned blue. It saw!"

[Note: I only highlighted the pupil bit as it's the seeing part of the eye... and thanks to the show i keep forgetting it's the pupil not the iris that is blue (unless that is a difference between being a WW and being controlled by one?)]

I think the clue has been there all along... and if it's not clear why Bloodraven and Craster may be carrying this curse... it's on Wiki:

His Raven's Teeth ultimately gained the Weeping Ridge, and rained arrows down on Daemon Blackfyre from 300 yards away.Daemon and his twin sons were killed. For this, people would name him a kinslayer.

What have the WW got to do with anything? Kinslaying seems to be the common link... Bloodraven Vs Blackfyres, Craster and his sons, the story of Bael the Bard and the Starks.

No man is more accursed in the eyes of the gods than the Kinslayer

There is a cold hell waiting for the Starks of Winterfell

... and this raises loads of follow on questions about the long night that lasted a generation - time enough for a son to grow up and seek his father out? It could very well be that the story of Bael the Bard IS the story of the long night?

The thing about Kinslaying is that depending on how picky you are about it... eventually you wont be allowed to kill anyone... because everyone is a distant relative... maybe Lord Rickards Southron ambitions were to try and mix the bloodlines to delay the long night? Maybe that's why the Targs practice incest so that there is no risk of killing their own and causing a long night!?!?

Edit: Typos (Also the headline - 'Bloodraven is Crasters father' is the way i envision the link... but that's what is up for debate... it could be that Craster is cursed BY Bloodraven... but i don't see how one Kinslayer could judge another... and i am assuming they were Crasters sons as this was an isolated incident and only Craster is growing his own WW army to my knowledge... but unless it's Bloodravens right eye that is blind i think this is a blindingly obvious clue!) :D

[MarianneSnow]

There is stupid Uncat, again. I never really wondered about, why Mormont knows, what he knows. Knowing all kinds of stuff was just fitting with the archityp of fatherly grown-old-in-the-field and saw-lot-of-things commander, which he represents.

But, yeah, Bloodraven was there some 70 years before.

So am I right to assume this:

Bloodraven gets to the Wall, called bay the Children. Because the Children know, that a super cycle will soon end and Fire and Ice will go to war to fight out the balance for the next cycle. But while for a long time, that did not matter much, because there were the Kings of Winter, the North between the Necks as a buffer zone and last but not least a Wall, this time it is going to be different. There is no King of Winter, the Starks in Winterfell have forgotten their duty to Ice and the Watch might very well becom an instrument to Fire.

So they, who are left, start to meddle. They pick up Bloodraven, show him the heart of winter and fill him in on how things work and on what will happen.

Bloodraven in turn starts to work. He fills in a very small chosen circle with all he knows on whats basicly is going to happen in the years to come, when the cycle closes. Then he leaves for his weirwood throne, using a raven to stay in touch.

That is why Mormont seems to know about what Craster is doing, and why he knows, that it is important that he keeps doing it. And that he did not seem over the top preocupied that White Walkers have been sighted. He was expecting them to turn up.

For all we know, Bloodraven might even have been the one to install Craster in the first place, because he knew Craster had, what it takes. In a way, he would have cursed Craster with this task: Buy us time, with your sons. The time we need, until the promissed new Greenseer from Winterfell turns up and we can get the Starks back on track. --> FanTasy, I read back back until Heresy three, when I first came to this threads. Is it this, what you were discussing?

Okay...going for broke here but if this is the case and the COTF are filling in BR on the goings ons...do you think they have an idea about Jon, who only God GRRM knows the impact he will have...If R+L=J is true, then Ice and Fire-Summer and Winter. Is the Jon the PTWP or AA??? Do the children know and will they, along with BR and Bran facillitate his actions? Putting it out there with all this wonderful info...I could (and do) read this all day :bowdown:

[Uncat]

@Lycos

Would you get me one, too, please?

@Tyrrian

I think, we don't need to cover spring and autumn. Both are seasons of transition, when the extrem seasons summer and winter are in balance and the tides beween fire and ice turn. If there is an association for the Children, then I would associate them with both seasons. They once helped man to end the Long Night (how ever they did it) and to bring about a new spring and summer. But this time, they rather seem to help the Icy guys to make their stand against summer in order to bring about autumn and winter.

Or you see it like that: they are the poor fellows caught in the middle.

[Uncat]

On Mance an Craster: Gilly has this odd line in AFFC, where she refers to the baby as Mances son and Crasters grandson. I very much doubt, that this is an unedited mistake, because in the contexct, him being Mances son would be enough (to have the blood of a great warrior). Naming Craster is very odd there, so odd, that I can only assume, that Gilly knows, what we don't know (i.e. not a mistake but a casualy dropped piece of information)

[FanTasy]

I'm ashamed to say that after reading the novels for multiple times and after 16 Heresy threads I'm still as dumbfounded as I was about motives and goals of the key players.

What do the Children want? They are not telling and Bran does not ask.

What do the white walkers want? Sam could have asked but instead turned the second white walker (ETA we meet) into a blue puddle.

What does Bloodraven want? Bran - him again - is not asking.

Sigh ... What is the use of having p.o.v.-characters that don't give us the information we seek? :bang:

[Ser Leftwich]

I believe you may be correct. However, we dont know how many Maesters were on the Wall when Aemon arrived. My point is that it may be unlikely that Aemon would be installed on the LCs council straight away. Perhaps he spent some time on Eastwatch or the Shadow Tower

Although, it is unlikely that Bloodraven was immediately installed/elected as the LC when he arrived at the Wall. So that would give time for Aemon to move up the ranks as well. Aemon was 34-35 when he went to the Wall and nearly Archmaester material, so could easily take over the top job and/or have years to just read all the books at Castle Black.

Interesting parallel between Aemon and BR, at a crisis time, BR goes even further north, Aemon goes south, Ice preserves and Fire consumes. BR is still alive and Aemon has passed away.

Aemon probably learned a thing or two from his great-half-uncle (or however they are related) while they were at the Wall together for decades.

[Eyron]

Agree with not having to pin a season to the Children, in my view they are keepers of balance, facilitators of transition. And I also think they could be helping winter along, not necessarily helping the Others, but helping humans against a never ending summer.

[Priormuir Fergus]

First time posting on Heresy but i've been lurking around around these discusions a lot and found a lot of interesting well thought out theories.

While reading the opinions about Craster i've been flicking through the CoK chapter at Crasters Keep and found the following quotes

"You are few here, and isolated," Mormont said. "If you like, I'll detail some men to escort you south to the wall."

The raven seemed to like the notion. "Wall," it sreamed spreading black wings like a high collar around Mormonts head....

"Tell him wife. Tell the Lord Crow how well content we are"

The woman licked at thin lips. "This is our place. Craster keeps us safe. Better to die free than live a slave"

"Slave" muttered the raven

I'm not sure what to make of the raven/BRs animation at the prospect of Craster and his offspring being protected behind the wall. If there was no chance of Craster accepting the offer why would BR waste his time endorsing the idea? If it was just a case of weakening the white walkers by depriving them of their "sacrafices" surley BR could have killed him years ago through a Warged wild animal attack. Maybe i'm reading to much into this but IMO BR wants Craster safe behind the wall, I just have no idea why.

The slave comment and its delivery (being muttered) IMO supports the idea that Craster is cursed to sacrafice his sons. He's a slave to whoever cursed him.

[FanTasy]

On Mance an Craster: Gilly has this odd line in AFFC, where she refers to the baby as Mances son and Crasters grandson. I very much doubt, that this is an unedited mistake, because in the contexct, him being Mances son would be enough (to have the blood of a great warrior). Naming Craster is very odd there, so odd, that I can only assume, that Gilly knows, what we don't know (i.e. not a mistake but a casualy dropped piece of information)

Wasn't it Sam who thinks of Little Aemon as Mance's son and Craster's grandson?

I doubt this is overlooked by GRRM (and by his editor).

And for some reason no one asked, for as far as I know, when in a room or chatsession with GGRM GRRM. Not that he would have given an answer ...

[Uncat]

Nope, can't quote it for the lack of a book, but it goes like this: Gilly and Sam discuss Gillys and Monsters future. Gilly comes up with a name. It is a heros name and they linger on the thought, that it is a name for a great warrior. gilly says then, that being the son of Mance Rayder and Crasters grandson, there are no doubts, that he will live up to it. I remeber this because I found it specialy odd, that Gilly and Sam same would draw on old Crasters heritage when trying to proof themselves, that they are not choosing too large a name for the kid. Craster really doesn't stick to ones memory for being a hero.

[FanTasy]

Nope, can't quote it for the lack of a book, but it goes like this: Gilly and Sam discuss Gillys and Monsters future. Gilly comes up with a name. It is a heros name and they linger on the thought, that it is a name for a great warrior. gilly says then, that being the son of Mance Rayder and Crasters grandson, there are no doubts, that he will live up to it. I remeber this because I found it specialy odd, that Gilly and Sam same would draw on old Crasters heritage when trying to proof themselves, that they are not choosing too large a name for the kid. Craster really doesn't stick to ones memory for being a hero.

Luckily I have AFFC at hand. It's in Samwell IV. Gilly comes up with the name: Aemon Steelsong. Sam then thinks:

<A name even my lord father might like. A warrior's name. The boy was Mance Rayder's son and Craster's grandson, after all. He had none of Sam's craven blood. "Yes, call him that". >

[Dengeleng]

@Uncat

They talk about maester aemon who just died:

"

“The night before he died, he asked if he might hold the babe,” Gilly went on. “I was afraid he might drop him, but he never did. He rocked him and hummed a song for him, and Dalla’s boy reached up and touched his face. The way he pulled his lip I thought he might be hurting him, but it only made the old man laugh.” She stroked Sam’s hand. “We could name the little one Maester, if you like. When he’s old enough, not now. We could.”

“Maester is not a name. You could call him Aemon, though.”

Gilly thought about that. “Dalla brought him forth during battle, as the swords sang all around her. That should be his name. Aemon Battleborn. Aemon Steelsong.”

A name even my lord father might like. A warrior’s name. The boy was Mance Rayder’s son and Craster’s grandson, after all. He had none of Sam’s craven blood. “Yes. Call him that.”

“When he is two,” she promised, “not before.” "

Could also just mean that his mother, dalla, was one of crasters daughters, doesn't it?

[Uncat]

Thanks for the quote! Memory is really a treacherous thing. Yes, Dalla (and by extension Val) could be Crasters daughters, too.

-----

Edit: But then Sam was thinking about the paternal line of the kid (like: lucky boy to have non of my blood, bood the blood of this great daddy and supergreat grand-daddy.)

[FanTasy]

Thanks for the quote! Memory is really a treacherous thing. Yes, Dalla (and by extension Val) could be Crasters daughters, too.

-----

Edit: But then Sam was thinking about the paternal line of the kid (like: lucky boy to have non of my blood, bood the blood of this great daddy and supergreat grand-daddy.)

And the question of course is: if Craster is Mance or Dalla's father, how does Sam know this?

Those lines remain very weird either way.

[Dengeleng]

So then Mance must have been first a wildling who joined the watch, just to become a turncloak and leave them again. Also he would be a bastard-stark through his father craster, beeing a half-stark himself? Okay maybe he took the black for spying on them or something like that... like when he went to the feast at winterfell.

That sounds a bit too much for me. But of course that doesn't mean its not possible.

Btw i'm new here and like this thread very much. Although its sometimes a bit hard to follow... I think sometimes some people get drifted away a bit tooo much :) But at least here in this thread no one gets stubburn or angry when you try to reason with them (i hope :))

[Uncat]

This is a thing that really drives me mad about this book. all the time I feel like people are talking behind my back. In this case, it would have been Gilly and Sam, who had a lot of chats with the mike off, for sure. But still. He knows it, he thinks it quite casually and a regards Craster, old man Craster as worthy grandfather. Whyowhyowhy :bawl: :bang: :idea: :angry2: :thumbsdown: :commie: (the last one I only added, because I like the little guy so much hopping around and waving his flag)

[Eyron]

Bloodraven is Crasters father!

Evidence... Crasters sons (assumption?) attack Waymar Royce (What a legend by the way!! I keep forgetting how cool he is despite being just 18 and on his first ranging!! So easy to mis-judge him from his youthful arrogance) in the pro-logue to the first book... There was this small bit that shows the link...

[Note: I only highlighted the pupil bit as it's the seeing part of the eye... and thanks to the show i keep forgetting it's the pupil not the iris that is blue (unless that is a difference between being a WW and being controlled by one?)]

I think the clue has been there all along... and if it's not clear why Bloodraven and Craster may be carrying this curse... it's on Wiki:

What have the WW got to do with anything? Kinslaying seems to be the common link... Bloodraven Vs Blackfyres, Craster and his sons, the story of Bael the Bard and the Starks.

<..>

Edit: Typos (Also the headline - 'Bloodraven is Crasters father' is the way i envision the link... but that's what is up for debate... it could be that Craster is cursed BY Bloodraven... but i don't see how one Kinslayer could judge another... and i am assuming they were Crasters sons as this was an isolated incident and only Craster is growing his own WW army to my knowledge... but unless it's Bloodravens right eye that is blind i think this is a blindingly obvious clue!) :D

I'm not sure I understand your theory. Is it that Waymar Royce had his eye ruined by a shard of the sword, and that BR has only one eye?

In Bloodravens defense (as usual :commie: ) no one knows (but himself perhaps) if he was the one who released the arrows that killed his halfbrother and his sons... They let the arrows rain down on the Blackfyres and co, who's arrow killed who? :)

"Tell him wife. Tell the Lord Crow how well content we are"

The woman licked at thin lips. "This is our place. Craster keeps us safe. Better to die free than live a slave"

"Slave" muttered the raven

I'm not sure what to make of the raven/BRs animation at the prospect of Craster and his offspring being protected behind the wall. If there was no chance of Craster accepting the offer why would BR waste his time endorsing the idea? If it was just a case of weakening the white walkers by depriving them of their "sacrafices" surley BR could have killed him years ago through a Warged wild animal attack. Maybe i'm reading to much into this but IMO BR wants Craster safe behind the wall, I just have no idea why.

The slave comment and its delivery (being muttered) IMO supports the idea that Craster is cursed to sacrafice his sons. He's a slave to whoever cursed him.

Welcome! Good point made here, why did BR want Craster south of the Wall? And why did he later (I assume) help Sam and Gilly south, via Coldhands? Why did his ravens attack the wights that were closing in around them? He really seems to want to put the Wall between all Crasters children and the Others. A clue perhaps to Craster and his offerings being very important to the Others and BR wanting to take that benefit away from them. As you say though, why have BR not done this before? Curious.

Not sure that the crow meant Craster was a slave, but maybe that his wife was - a slave to Craster. Just an idea, but it could well mean that Craster is a slave to the Others and not free as he thinks himself to be.

[DragonSpawn]

But since that was after Aemon died the baby swapping had already taken place? First the babe was Mance's son... And then became Crasters Grandson... But whatever his origins... He has none of Sams craven blood... Thats how i read it anyway...

[FanTasy]

Not sure that the crow meant Craster was a slave, but maybe that his wife was - a slave to Craster. Just an idea, but it could well mean that Craster is a slave to the Others and not free as he thinks himself to be.

Regarding:

"Tell him wife. Tell the Lord Crow how well content we are"

The woman licked at thin lips. "This is our place. Craster keeps us safe. Better to die free than live a slave"

"Slave" muttered the raven

I have always read the slave-line as a reference to that the people beyond the Wall thought of themselves as free folk, not like the kneelers (who were slave to a king they did not choose) and like the crows at the Wall, who were slave to their vows.

Hmm ... could mean something else as well. This is why I like this forum, makes you re-read and re-think.

[DragonSpawn]

I'm not sure I understand your theory. Is it that Waymar Royce had his eye ruined by a shard of the sword, and that BR has only one eye?.

No... The shard was what Will was holding... The left eye was blind... The right eye burned blue. i dont think Waymar was blind in his left eye or was noticably blinded during the fight. So why did his left eye not burn blue as well?