Heresy 17

[Tyryan Lannister]

one thing that I've been trying to figure out is what race is supposed to be the champion of autumn? I agree with what Black Crow said above about the Children being in charge of spring and that Bran is now Spring's champion; we have the Others/Sidhe as winter and ________ as Winter's Champion; we have the Red Lot/Dragons/some race out in Asshai, the Shadow, and/or the Doom as Summer and AA reborn as Summer's Champion; but what of the Autumn? I would say that the giants would fit well (autumn is kind of the brother and bane of spring if you think about it) but at the same time it seems that each Seasonal Race gets a major continent as its home: Winter has the Land of Always, Summer has the Shadow, Spring has Westeros, and Autumn has _____.

My thoughts on it: Man was originally the protectors/servants of the autumn (which makes some practical sense seeing as Man both brings in the harvest and delivers death to many different things) and that Man is originally from Essos, with Essos supposed to be the Land of Always Autumn or something like that. Also, IIRC, the Dothraki believe that Man originated from the Mother of Mountains and Vaes Dothrak, which is evidence for man at least belonging on Essos; I'm starting to think that it would be wise to begin delving deep into some of the Dothraki folk tales and myths as well...

[Black Crow]

Apropos changelings, on beginning yet another read I picked up something missed in AGoT Bran 1, where they are discussing the execution of Gared:

"He was a wildling," Bran said. "They carry off women and sell them to the Others"

His lord father smiled. "Old Nan has been telling you stories again..."

[Uncat]

one thing that I've been trying to figure out is what race is supposed to be the champion of autumn? I agree with what Black Crow said above about the Children being in charge of spring and that Bran is now Spring's champion; we have the Others/Sidhe as winter and ________ as Winter's Champion; we have the Red Lot/Dragons/some race out in Asshai, the Shadow, and/or the Doom as Summer and AA reborn as Summer's Champion; but what of the Autumn? I would say that the giants would fit well (autumn is kind of the brother and bane of spring if you think about it) but at the same time it seems that each Seasonal Race gets a major continent as its home: Winter has the Land of Always, Summer has the Shadow, Spring has Westeros, and Autumn has _____.

My thoughts on it: Man was originally the protectors/servants of the autumn (which makes some practical sense seeing as Man both brings in the harvest and delivers death to many different things) and that Man is originally from Essos, with Essos supposed to be the Land of Always Autumn or something like that. Also, IIRC, the Dothraki believe that Man originated from the Mother of Mountains and Vaes Dothrak, which is evidence for man at least belonging on Essos; I'm starting to think that it would be wise to begin delving deep into some of the Dothraki folk tales and myths as well...

Yepp, those Dothraki, the may have some things right.

On who is which season:

GRRM said somewhere, that originaly Westeros was the continent of the non human races (while man developed in Essos). If you imagine the broken landbrige of Dorn back in, you get something of a scale with the arm of dorn being the arm of the scale. Icy guy, giants and Children to the left, man and Whoever-for-Fire to the right.

I'm coming to change this view. The humans are fire, they are the actual opposit to the icy guys. The use and missuse of fire defines us as a race: melting, forging, burning, heating. Our whole live is build around fire. And if you care to listen to way the weather forcasts are presented in your tipical radio station, you get the impression, that endless summer with endless sun is all we ever desire. And please lord, don't you let it rain, beacause that would be bad weather.

That is, where GRRM gets at us readers: we have a latent sympathy for the devil. This is why almost everybody out there roots for Danny and the Dragons. We are hot summer beings.

Man is Fire in ASOIAF. The First Man came with their fists of fire, says the GoHH. The andals came with steel and fire, says Master Luvin.

Man is Fire and she, who rules the beasts of Fire will be the Queen of Summer. Dannearis is to become the fearie queen of the Summer Court, if you would. In Essos, there are no Others, only man and man has been pressing on Ice for thousands of years.

That is why they needed the Starks. They needed someone sticking around throught all seasons. Because Ice and Fire are not of equal powers. Fire can make it through Winter, while Ice has not a snowballs chance in hell to make it through summer. That is why Ice has been loosing ground for thousands of years.

Small wonder, they build a Wall, to keep us at bay. No sympathies for the devil north of the Wall, I guess

[FanTasy]

Oomph ... 40 topics to catch up with since yesterday ... we certainly keep rolling along :cool4:

Craster being cursed not because of what he did but because he had to do it: I agree. It is possible that his curse had its root in his Stark blood, there is a reason I guess why he and his keep is used as a 'breeding spot'. What bugged me was the amount of knowledge Ygritte has, not only about the Starks but specifically about Craster. This can only be explained by that there either is a lot of talk about Craster going on amidst the wildling community, or maybe by that Ygritte was meant to 'feed' Jon with this specific knowledge. And the latter not just as a storytelling tool, exposition, but because she was used by someone to feed Jon with that information. Any thoughts of you guys concerning Ygritte and why she knew so much about Craster's curse?

It is also interesting that the command structure of the Nights Watch (Mormont) knew about what Craster was doing and did not stop it. How did Mormont know? Who told him? Craster? His wives? Wildlings? This seems odd. Someone must have known what happened to the sons. Who and how did they know this? My suspicion is that it is information that was passed along to the Lord Commander by one of his predecessors, Bloodraven. (ETA) And maybe the wildlings were told by Mance? (One of my 'theorettes' is that Mance is Bloodraven's son :cool4: )

About why the Night Watch did not interfere and stopped the breeding / feeding of the Others, this is explained by Mormont by that it is important to have Crasters Keep as a safe spot beyond the Wall. This seems strange. If it is just a place for shelter for the rangers, could they have removed Craster and put someone there who was not 'cursed'? They did not do this so the offering of the sons to the Others seems to be part of a deal.

Bran calling his wolf Summer: I think it is very telling that Bran waited so long to name his wolf. He 'needed' the vision inspired by the visit of the 3-eyed crow to know the name that would fit his wolf. And he named him immediately after that terrifying look into the heart of winter, probably seeing what he himself was to become. Summer smelling of summer (ETA picked up by his sibling) seems to me proof that Bran 'smelled' / felt this too.

Summer is probably could be Bran's lifeline, the thing that saves him from becoming the heart of winter. What convinced me of that Bran saw himself was that it probably is no coincidence that GRRM chose this particular term, 'heart of winter'. Not 'the midst of winter', 'the core of winter'. No, the 'heart' of winter, and Bran being positioned as a pulsating force in the weirnet, a system of trees that we know are not just called weirwood but also 'heart tree'.

If the story would go in the direction of Bran being saved, I think it will be by Summer. I had a little 'vision' of my own about a possible ending of the last book and saw Summer as one of the few survivors, carrying the 'Dream of Spring'. But knowing GRRM it could as well mean that Summer is doomed and that his being lost to Bran defines Bran's fate.

[Ciazio]

Craster being cursed not because of what he did but because he had to do it: I agree. It is possible that his curse had its root in his Stark blood

On Craster's incests, it remembers me of Targ incests.

I don't remember where (maybe Heresy 15) I come up with the suggestion that the Starks once practised incest like the Targaryens (were the Targs the fire-version of the Kings of Winter and the Night's King? Thus the exile).

Maybe Craster is a Stark descendant and somehow (Bloodraven?) knew that he needed incest and pure blood to satisfy the "Others", like the King of Winter used to do.

Going further... were the Others awakened by Craster's incests and sacrifices?

[FanTasy]

Maybe Craster is a Stark descendant and somehow (Bloodraven?) knew that he needed incest and pure blood to satisfy the "Others", like the King of Winter used to do.

Yep, we discussed this in one of the earliest Heresy threads. it struck me: craster - starc - stark, and there is some mentioning of the name Stark being scrambled in time by spin off-houses. Also what struck me is that Craster when first meeting Jon he immediately says: "you're a Stark". This could be explained by that Jon may look a bit like Benjen of course, we know Craster and Benjen have met.

[Uncat]

There is stupid Uncat, again. I never really wondered about, why Mormont knows, what he knows. Knowing all kinds of stuff was just fitting with the archityp of fatherly grown-old-in-the-field and saw-lot-of-things commander, which he represents.

But, yeah, Bloodraven was there some 70 years before.

So am I right to assume this:

Bloodraven gets to the Wall, called bay the Children. Because the Children know, that a super cycle will soon end and Fire and Ice will go to war to fight out the balance for the next cycle. But while for a long time, that did not matter much, because there were the Kings of Winter, the North between the Necks as a buffer zone and last but not least a Wall, this time it is going to be different. There is no King of Winter, the Starks in Winterfell have forgotten their duty to Ice and the Watch might very well becom an instrument to Fire.

So they, who are left, start to meddle. They pick up Bloodraven, show him the heart of winter and fill him in on how things work and on what will happen.

Bloodraven in turn starts to work. He fills in a very small chosen circle with all he knows on whats basicly is going to happen in the years to come, when the cycle closes. Then he leaves for his weirwood throne, using a raven to stay in touch.

That is why Mormont seems to know about what Craster is doing, and why he knows, that it is important that he keeps doing it. And that he did not seem over the top preocupied that White Walkers have been sighted. He was expecting them to turn up.

For all we know, Bloodraven might even have been the one to install Craster in the first place, because he knew Craster had, what it takes. In a way, he would have cursed Craster with this task: Buy us time, with your sons. The time we need, until the promissed new Greenseer from Winterfell turns up and we can get the Starks back on track. --> FanTasy, I read back back until Heresy three, when I first came to this threads. Is it this, what you were discussing?

[nanother]

Another interesting thing about Bran is that he is told the story of the Others by Old Nan after he had his 3EC dream, so when he learns the traditional story he was already familiar with the heart of winter. I that why he tries to interrupt Old Nan when she askes if this is the type of story that he likes?

Old Nan has started telling about the long night, and fear, fear is for the winter... etc.

Her voice and her needles fell silent, and she glanced up at Bran with pale, filmy eyes and asked, “So, child. This is the sort of story you like?”

“Well,” Bran said reluctantly, “yes, only . . ."

What was Bran going to say? Maybe he already knows things about the Others or winter, that would contradict this story. In any case, in usual GRRM manner we are never told what Bran would say here.

A nitpick: this wasn't the first time he heard that story. But your point still stands. It's weird, though, when he finally makes it to BR he seems to have forgotten about any of the HoW business...he's all disappointed that he won't be able to walk again etc...you'd think he'd have figured out by then what the 3EC is all about :unsure:

Good catch on Bran's changed relationship with the heart tree. But I don't see why that would make him a child of Winter. The child of Earth, if anything, not bound to any one season, but to the natural flow of them...Old Nan still refers to him as 'summer boy' - he might have glimpsed the heart of winter, but clearly he doesn't know what to make of what he'd seen...

[FanTasy]

Bloodraven in turn starts to work. He fills in a very small chosen circle with all he knows on whats basicly is going to happen in the years to come, when the cycle closes. Then he leaves for his weirwood throne, using a raven to stay in touch.

That is why Mormont seems to know about what Craster is doing, and why he knows, that it is important that he keeps doing it. And that he did not seem over the top preocupied that White Walkers have been sighted. He was expecting them to turn up.

For all we know, Bloodraven might even have been the one to install Craster in the first place, because he knew Craster had, what it takes. In a way, he would have cursed Craster with this task: Buy us time, with your sons. The time we need, until the promissed new Greenseer from Winterfell turns up and we can get the Starks back on track. --> FanTasy, I read back back until Heresy three, when I first came to this threads. Is it this, what you were discussing?

The raven to stay in touch: yep, I think that 'Mormonts raven' is not just any raven, it is the raven that comes with the office of the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. Possibly holding a bit of Bloodraven in it. Maybe communicating also by blood and dna, there is a reason why this raven is described multiple times as drawing blood - and ultimately eating Mormonts flesh. Memories stored or transported in flesh and blood?

I'm not sure in which thread or threads we discussed where Craster came from, and that he was not the first to breed 'sons' to give to the white walkers. The stories of selling children seem to date from before Craster started. I remember posing a question if the brothels that would have been located close to each fort of the Wall could have served this purpose. There probably was a 'Mole's Town' close to the Dreadfort. A nice set-up: women and men, the female offspring would be raised to work in the brothels close to the Wall, but what to do with the male children? They could man the Wall of course, but maybe another and darker practice evolved.

About Bloodraven: we know he had ambitions, that he was involved in magic / sorcery and that he had an extensive communications network. If he had took the initiative to seek out the children or that they recruited him ... I'm not sure.

What is interesting is how much Maester Aemon knew, by the way. Didn't he come to the Wall at the same time as Bloodraven? If so, he was Bloodravens Maester.

[Frey Pie]

We certainly did discuss it here for a while with a bit of cross-fertilisation between the two, although ultimately as I recall they went in different directions. Much as I enjoyed Bran Vas' insights and the very detailed use of Breton folklore I did feel there was a tendency to way in too deep. Nevertheless, the whole thing on both threads can be summarised as concluding that Ramsay Snow/Bolton at least is a changeling - not a human taken like Craster's sons to serve the Sidhe, but a Sidhe in human form.

Now this is a surprise. I didnt think the Ramsey/Changeling theory had been accepted so conclusively. If this is so i wonder if Roose knew about it. With his eerie eyes it would seem he has some of the same blood and perhaps this switch has happened a few times in the Bolton bloodline. Hence the similarities between Roose and his son yet also the differences. This brings up interesting possibilities on the future role of Ramsey. Perhaps if, as speculated the Starks have forgotten their ancient role, this is the reason for the enmity of the two houses.

Sorry for the change in topic. Ill try to contribute to the other discussion as wel

[Ciazio]

What is interesting is how much Maester Aemon knew, by the way. Didn't he come to the Wall at the same time as Bloodraven? If so, he was Bloodravens Maester.

That's why I think Bloodraven didn't inform a small group about the CoTF and the upcoming Winter.

Aemon was is "cousin", a wise man, and a promising brother of the NW. Why not tell him? And if he did, why Aemon didn't tell Jon after Mormont's death?

Maybe BR told his secrets only to the supposed-to-be next LC and the chain went on untill Mormont. Still I believe the Old Bear a smart enough person to tell someone/write somewhere his secrets before going out for ranging (being Aemon his obvious first choice, which bring us to the previous point).

Given all the things above, I believe that BR didn't tell anyone about the CoTF or that he found the cave perchance and never come back to the Wall.

Accordingly, what Mormont knew could only be the sum of legends, old tales, wildlings' knowledge (including Craster), and whatever is written in the books of Castle Black's library.

[Frey Pie]

The raven to stay in touch: yep, I think that 'Mormonts raven' is not just any raven, it is the raven that comes with the office of the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. Possibly holding a bit of Bloodraven in it. Maybe communicating also by blood and dna, there is a reason why this raven is described multiple times as drawing blood - and ultimately eating Mormonts flesh. Memories stored or transported in flesh and blood?

I'm not sure in which thread or threads we discussed where Craster came from, and that he was not the first to breed 'sons' to give to the white walkers. The stories of selling children seem to date from before Craster started. I remember posing a question if the brothels that would have been located close to each fort of the Wall could have served this purpose. There probably was a 'Mole's Town' close to the Dreadfort. A nice set-up: women and men, the female offspring would be raised to work in the brothels close to the Wall, but what to do with the male children? They could man the Wall of course, but maybe another and darker practice evolved.

About Bloodraven: we know he had ambitions, that he was involved in magic / sorcery and that he had an extensive communications network. If he had took the initiative to seek out the children or that they recruited him ... I'm not sure.

What is interesting is how much Maester Aemon knew, by the way. Didn't he come to the Wall at the same time as Bloodraven? If so, he was Bloodravens Maester.

Mormonts raven would definately seem to be an agent of some type. Taking in the fact that it played a key part in Jons promotion to LC its an extension of BR. This is BRs attempt to get the NW back on board woth whatever plan he has cooked up. IIRC there is no previous examples of blood holding memories but it certainly does make sense. If BR is the newest in a long line of greenseers perhaps the raven holds the memories of some of these descendants.

I would think BR was recruited in the same way as Bran was. His predescessor seeked him out and nudged him down the right path. As for Aemon its unknown if he would have been installed as the primary master straight away. However it is probable that he was at some stage, probably the last, BRs maester and would have known his LCs thoughts. Perhaps he didnt agree with them though. As we know towards the end Aemon is desperate to seek Dany out as he believes she will be the PTWP. But if as speculated its Ice versus Fire then hes rooting for the opposite side of his brother.

Yet he also had a say in Jons promotion and advised him well always. Is this another sign of the two powers trying to control the LC, Jon?

[FanTasy]

Accordingly, what Mormont knew could only be the sum of legends, old tales, wildlings' knowledge (including Craster), and whatever is written in the books of Black Castle's library.

Well, we know from when Jon ordered Sam to the library in what terrible state the library in Castle Black was. You would expect the management to ensure that vital information could be found easily. But there was chaos, poor maintenance, books eaten by mice. Even a trivial (or possible trivial) document as a list of the Lord Commanders was not there for instant grabbing. You'd expect at least a Black Book, as Jaime had the White Book when he became Lord Commander.

The state of disarray made me think why the Wall-management had so little interest in upholding the archives.

One of the explanations could be that the maester of the Wall was blind, although this could have been solved of course,

Maester Aemon had a servant who could read for him, or write for that matter.

Was Mormont uninterested in the archives of the Wall? And if so, why? That made me wonder about if the Lord Commander could have another way of passing on vital information through the raven that comes with the office. I remember we discussed Odin's ravens, who were his way of communicating and stay in touch.

[FanTasy]

As for Aemon its unknown if he would have been installed as the primary master straight away. However it is probable that he was at some stage, probably the last, BRs maester and would have known his LCs thoughts. Perhaps he didnt agree with them though. As we know towards the end Aemon is desperate to seek Dany out as he believes she will be the PTWP. But if as speculated its Ice versus Fire then hes rooting for the opposite side of his brother.

Yet he also had a say in Jons promotion and advised him well always. Is this another sign of the two powers trying to control the LC, Jon?

I think he was sent to the Wall to be the Maester. It's in AFFC somewhere, I think Alleras tells Sam. The other maesters were suspicious of Aemon 'because of his blood' (his dragon blood) and I think they didn't want him to be a in a place where he would have too much influence. Because of his descent he could not be allocated to a minor house and to be an archmaester at the Citadel was not an option.

[Frey Pie]

I think he was sent to the Wall to be the Maester. It's in AFFC somewhere, I think Alleras tells Sam. The other maesters were suspicious of Aemon 'because of his blood' (his dragon blood) and I think they didn't want him to be a in a place where he would have too much influence. Because of his descent he could not be allocated to a minor house and to be an archmaester at the Citadel was not an option.

I believe you may be correct. However, we dont know how many Maesters were on the Wall when Aemon arrived. My point is that it may be unlikely that Aemon would be installed on the LCs council straight away. Perhaps he spent some time on Eastwatch or the Shadow Tower

[Elaena Targaryen]

Craster being cursed not because of what he did but because he had to do it: I agree. It is possible that his curse had its root in his Stark blood, there is a reason I guess why he and his keep is used as a 'breeding spot'. What bugged me was the amount of knowledge Ygritte has, not only about the Starks but specifically about Craster. This can only be explained by that there either is a lot of talk about Craster going on amidst the wildling community, or maybe by that Ygritte was meant to 'feed' Jon with this specific knowledge. And the latter not just as a storytelling tool, exposition, but because she was used by someone to feed Jon with that information. Any thoughts of you guys concerning Ygritte and why she knew so much about Craster's curse?

Ygritte's knowledge of Craster was discussed a little, and I believe it was brought up by Bran Vras, it may a been a heresy or two ( or three? ) before the Sidhe discovery. What I remember is Craster's mother was from the Whitetree village and it was speculated that Ygritte may be from Whitetree also. I think the discussion may have yeilded clues for Ygritte being from Whitetree but I can not remember what they were, so if I have time later I will try to find it for you but it is hard enough trying to keep up with the current heresy threads lol. :)

[Tyryan Lannister]

Yepp, those Dothraki, the may have some things right.

On who is which season:

GRRM said somewhere, that originaly Westeros was the continent of the non human races (while man developed in Essos). If you imagine the broken landbrige of Dorn back in, you get something of a scale with the arm of dorn being the arm of the scale. Icy guy, giants and Children to the left, man and Whoever-for-Fire to the right.

I'm coming to change this view. The humans are fire, they are the actual opposit to the icy guys. The use and missuse of fire defines us as a race: melting, forging, burning, heating. Our whole live is build around fire. And if you care to listen to way the weather forcasts are presented in your tipical radio station, you get the impression, that endless summer with endless sun is all we ever desire. And please lord, don't you let it rain, beacause that would be bad weather.

That is, where GRRM gets at us readers: we have a latent sympathy for the devil. This is why almost everybody out there roots for Danny and the Dragons. We are hot summer beings.

Man is Fire in ASOIAF. The First Man came with their fists of fire, says the GoHH. The andals came with steel and fire, says Master Luvin.

Man is Fire and she, who rules the beasts of Fire will be the Queen of Summer. Dannearis is to become the fearie queen of the Summer Court, if you would. In Essos, there are no Others, only man and man has been pressing on Ice for thousands of years.

That is why they needed the Starks. They needed someone sticking around throught all seasons. Because Ice and Fire are not of equal powers. Fire can make it through Winter, while Ice has not a snowballs chance in hell to make it through summer. That is why Ice has been loosing ground for thousands of years.

Small wonder, they build a Wall, to keep us at bay. No sympathies for the devil north of the Wall, I guess

K yeah that makes sense then. So it's:

Winter: land of always, Sidhe/others

Summer: essos, mankind

Springs and Autumn: westeros; Children and Giants, respectively

Also Mance as BR's son... Never thought of that but definitely makes sense, especially if Mance is in league with BR

[Lykos]

That would have been Lycos in another thread.

Thank you, but it was Dragonspawn that came up with that very nice quote and you added the Jean d´Arc thing that I had also thought of. I loved these ideas and that was a really cool discussion, as I´m sure the one now is too.

I just can´t keep up with the reading there are so many things that touch previous half forgotten discussions. There also are some ideas, I think I read good passages in the books to quote in order to back them up.

I need a time turner.

[Eyron]

Jumping thoughts: Actually in the scenes you brought up, Bran does not recive winter and ice but he is rather welcomend into the other community, the one with trees, seeds and earth. So the insight might have been, that he stems from winter, from the Starks. But it will be his job to bring spring about. Which again means ti think: I am the one between Winter and Summer. I come from Winter, I need to allow Winter to take its course but I am also the one to eventually stop Winter and to make way for Summer. Would scare the hell out of me and I would really want to have some Summer with me, when I go down into Winter, or else, how will I make through it?

Yep, that was my point, it is a communion of sorts just like with Sansa, but not winter - instead with the woods. That is why I never said it. The two posts are separate line of thoughts, Bran is a child of winter because he is a Stark, in my view, but not because he accepts the woods. I don't line up the woods and the Children with Winter and have argued against that forever it seems, so I never thought to type it out. Sorry for being unclear...

So to clear this up since I am forever an enigma, this is what I wrote, with comments:

I had the feeling of Bran receiving communion as we have talked about regarding Sansa and the snow. Bran accepts the trees, and later on he indeed had the literal communion, when having the weirwood paste.

So I didn't say this communion made him a child of winter. I am not sure I connect the Children with Spring specifically so I didnt mention any season, just the trees.

Bran grew from a green boy of summer to a more mature boy of winter during that dream.

By this I mean that he grew up, he is not a green summer boy anymore, an expression used by characters about young and ignorant people who for example complain about a little cold and snow when they know nothing of the real cold. Southron fools as the northern clansmen would say.

As I also wrote, I think he named his wolf Summer because he wants to be reminded of summer, that he is going to need that in the times to come. I also think that this wolf was assigned to him for a purpose, the wolf with the warm yellow eyes that makes Bran remember who he is. Winter will likely change Bran (and no, I'm not suggesting he will ally with the Others, just that he will loose hope, feel lonely, being tempted with the powers of winter? - such things), and Summer will help him through it in one piece, balance kept.

A nitpick: this wasn't the first time he heard that story. But your point still stands. It's weird, though, when he finally makes it to BR he seems to have forgotten about any of the HoW business...he's all disappointed that he won't be able to walk again etc...you'd think he'd have figured out by then what the 3EC is all about :unsure: Good catch on Bran's changed relationship with the heart tree. But I don't see why that would make him a child of Winter. The child of Earth, if anything, not bound to any one season, but to the natural flow of them...Old Nan still refers to him as 'summer boy' - he might have glimpsed the heart of winter, but clearly he doesn't know what to make of what he'd seen...

No I didn't mean that his "communion" with the woods made him a child of winter. Again, sorry if that was unclear, I hope the above clears this up.

I said in an earlier post that he is a child of winter because of his heritage as a Stark, that all Starks are children of winter by default. Not as in them all being allied with the Others, but as in being northmen, rulers of the north and descendants of Kings of winter. The Others don't have monopoly on winter :)

Just like the Dragons are not the only beings connected with summer, there are the Summer Islanders, the most of Essos, and the southerners of Westeros, who I also would call children of Summer, and who are not allied with Dragons or the Targaryens necessarily.

I'm from up north myself and I don't have the strong affinity for summer that Uncat describes, I like the snow and cold too. I hate when it's above +26¤C and usually melt to a useless pile of selfpity those days. I enjoy a cold autumn day (without rain) much more than a hot summers day, because my body is not used to heat. A cold winters day is of course hard too, when it get's below -20¤C life do get tricky. I can stand the cold though, but I feel like dying when it's hot. The biggest trouble with winter is the darkness, for me.

About the nitpick; Were we told that he heard the story of the Others at some other point in time? Do you remember where? You are probably right, I'm just interested in where that is found.

ETA: Reading this post again, I'm not sure I did clear anything up... Sorry but you'll have to live with me being fuzzy.

In short:

Bran - a child of winter from being a Stark.

He has accepted the trees, had a weirwood communion.

Bran grew from being a "summers boy", with childish dreams about knighthood - to understanding the hardships of life, learning to fear and fear is for the winter as per Old Nan.

I was mixing the concepts with confusing result.

[Uncat]

Just to make sure: you don't happen to ride pale dead horses from time to time, leading armies of the slayn, do you?

But I actually feel much more alive on cold days, too, and I can really see the horror in always summer (that's why the wether presenters really bug me with their cries for sunshine). I love spring and autumn and I hate August. But given the choice, humanity will always choose summer, fire and light, because we just can't live without it. And GRRM is really great in exploiting this feeling.