The Heart Has Reasons, of Which Reason Knows Nothing

[Winter's Knight]

And you just hit one of the overriding themes of women in ASOIAF. :) Not a surprise at all, coming from both of you and previous conversations.

I knew you and Lady Lea would side with me. :grouphug:

This isn't really the thread to say this, so I'll make it quick:

I can't really get behind this idea that Cersei is what she is because of Robert's treatment of her (If that's what you're meaning with abuse and beating, because I can't really think of anything else). By the flashbacks we get of her, she was already showing signs of arrogance and willful abuse by the time she was a little girl.

We're talking about someone that orders babies butchered and sends innocent women to torture here. "Abuse" goes only a certain length in justifying Cersei's behavior.

Cersei's crimes are, I suspect overrated-a case of smoke and mirrors. Along with my theory that her murdering Robert's bastards was staged, the text in AFfC is deliberately inconclusive when it comes to the death of her friend.

Throughout the books we are lead to consider Cersei to be much worse than she actually is. Consider Lady for example-direwolves are wild, unpredictable animals. Suppose Nymeria had gone for Joff's throat instead of his arm, like Summer did to Bran's assassin? We are then shown that she supposedly poisoned Jon Arryn, arranged the death of Hugh and so on.

We learn in later books that such is not the case but by then, the reader is left with a very poor opinion of Cersei.

In ACoK, she takes Alaeyaya hostage as a security against Tyrion holding Tommen.

In ASoS, she, along with her father and brother participate in forcing Sansa into marrying House Lannister.

I do not condone her practice of sending victims to Qyburn, no more than I condone Tyrion's treatment of the Antlered Men or of Symon Silver-Tongued.

Also, I believe that a case can be made for Cersei having been severely affected by her years of abuse, just as I believe a lesser case can be made for Tyrion's character, based on his abuse.

[Thunderfist]

Jamie, Stannis, Victarion, and to some extent, Tywin Lannister

[Kittykatknits]

This isn't really the thread to say this, so I'll make it quick:

I can't really get behind this idea that Cersei is what she is just because of Robert's treatment of her (If that's what you're meaning with abuse and beating, because I can't really think of anything else). By the flashbacks we get of her, she was already showing signs of arrogance and willful abuse by the time she was a little girl.

We're talking about someone that orders babies butchered and sends innocent women to torture here. "Abuse" goes only a certain length in justifying Cersei's behavior.

I knew you and Lady Lea would side with me. :grouphug:

Cersei's crimes are, I suspect overrated-a case of smoke and mirrors. Along with my theory that her murdering Robert's bastards was staged, the text in AFfC is deliberately inconclusive when it comes to the death of her friend.

Throughout the books we are lead to consider Cersei to be much worse than she actually is. Consider Lady for example-direwolves are wild, unpredictable animals. Suppose Nymeria had gone for Joff's throat instead of his arm, like Summer did to Bran's assassin? We are then shown that she supposedly poisoned Jon Arryn, arranged the death of Hugh and so on.

We learn in later books that such is not the case but by then, the reader is left with a very poor opinion of Cersei.

In ACoK, she takes Alaeyaya hostage as a security against Tyrion holding Tommen.

In ASoS, she, along with her father and brother participate in forcing Sansa into marrying House Lannister.

I do not condone her practice of sending victims to Qyburn, no more than I condone Tyrion's treatment of the Antlered Men or of Symon Silver-Tongued.

Also, I believe that a case can be made for Cersei having been severely affected by her years of abuse, just as I believe a lesser case can be made for Tyrion's character, based on his abuse.

Oh, I think it started well before Robert although I think her time with him made it worse. Remember her reflections growing up with Jaime? She tells Sansa the story of pretendiing to be him one day and being shocked at the difference.

WK- I don't want to derail this thread any more so I'll refain from going in more detail here. Is there a thread already on Cersei's "origin story" for lack of a better term? If one exists, I figured you would know. I think this could be a great topic for discussion.

[lilenadheas]

You know that when a friend of mine married an absolute jerk, I gave her a wedding card with the very same quote of the title of the thread.

I'm such a little shit.

Anywa, for me it's Tyrion. I can't help.

What can I say, for the other characters I try to understand them rationally, but Tyrion really gets me on an emotional level.

it's all about feelings, really.

You are amazing. I hope my friends would have the balls to do the same. Bravo.

[Winter's Knight]

Oh, I think it started well before Robert although I think her time with him made it worse. Remember her reflections growing up with Jaime? She tells Sansa the story of pretendiing to be him one day and being shocked at the difference.

WK- I don't want to derail this thread any more so I'll refain from going in more detail here. Is there a thread already on Cersei's "origin story" for lack of a better term? If one exists, I figured you would know. I think this could be a great topic for discussion.

There's the Defend Cersei thread as well as an old Lannister thread.

[lilenadheas]

Also, I think Cersei is very much a mixed bag. the twisting Tyrion's baby sausage and other events are proof of an undeniably cruel streak in her basic make up, but it has no doubt been exacerbated by the fear and paranoia her lack of agency and the prophecy have given her. Also, I don't admire Cersei for her strength and resilience, in fact, I think she is the opposite. I pity her for the lack of mental strength to endure her lot in life, and admire the fury with which she is refusing to be brought down, though she undoubtedly will.

[Fat Mac]

Littlefinger, Stannis, Davos, Bran and Jaime.

[Balintos]

Bronn and Tywin.

[Lady Lea]

I knew you and Lady Lea would side with me. :grouphug:

Cersei's crimes are, I suspect overrated-a case of smoke and mirrors. Along with my theory that her murdering Robert's bastards was staged, the text in AFfC is deliberately inconclusive when it comes to the death of her friend.

Throughout the books we are lead to consider Cersei to be much worse than she actually is. Consider Lady for example-direwolves are wild, unpredictable animals. Suppose Nymeria had gone for Joff's throat instead of his arm, like Summer did to Bran's assassin? We are then shown that she supposedly poisoned Jon Arryn, arranged the death of Hugh and so on.

We learn in later books that such is not the case but by then, the reader is left with a very poor opinion of Cersei.

In ACoK, she takes Alaeyaya hostage as a security against Tyrion holding Tommen.

In ASoS, she, along with her father and brother participate in forcing Sansa into marrying House Lannister.

I do not condone her practice of sending victims to Qyburn, no more than I condone Tyrion's treatment of the Antlered Men or of Symon Silver-Tongued.

Also, I believe that a case can be made for Cersei having been severely affected by her years of abuse, just as I believe a lesser case can be made for Tyrion's character, based on his abuse.

This so much! One more thing - Cersei didn't even want to kill Ned. She wanted him out of the way, of course, the man had information which could get her and her children exiled, or worse, killed. But she only wanted him to go to the Wall. It was Joffrey, who went against her express wishes (and who was probably egged on by LF), who decided. And it was another blow for Cersei too - the son which she had fought so hard to defend her whole life and who she loved so much, disregarded her opinions like she was nothing. She was truly powerless, again.

And like Kitty said, it starts way early with her, not only when she gets married. As a child she already knew how little power she'd have compared to Jaime, for the rest of her life.

But I won't derail this any longer. (eh, who knew I had a soft spot for the lions? ;) )

[Winter's Knight]

Also, I think Cersei is very much a mixed bag. the twisting Tyrion's baby sausage and other events are proof of an undeniably cruel streak in her basic make up, but it has no doubt been exacerbated by the fear and paranoia her lack of agency and the prophecy have given her. Also, I don't admire Cersei for her strength and resilience, in fact, I think she is the opposite. I pity her for the lack of mental strength to endure her lot in life, and admire the fury with which she is refusing to be brought down, though she undoubtedly will.

Last one then I'll shut up. Or make a new thread-depends on how quickly my coffee runs out.

This is yet another example of narrative deception-a clearly hostile party tells Tyrion what sounds like an almost cartoonish tale of childhood cruelty. Even Tyrion is half-disbelieving-he doesn't recall her being cruel to him growing up, for instance. If she was in the habit of humiliating and hurting him in front of others, surely he'd have recalled t?

Yet both here and when Varys tells him that Cersei ordered the death of the bastards, he never thinks, "Oh, she's doing it again" or "I should have known".

[lilenadheas]

Last one then I'll shut up. Or make a new thread-depends on how quickly my coffee runs out.

This is yet another example of narrative deception-a clearly hostile party tells Tyrion what sounds like an almost cartoonish tale of childhood cruelty. Even Tyrion is half-disbelieving-he doesn't recall her being cruel to him growing up, for instance. If she was in the habit of humiliating and hurting him in front of others, surely he'd have recalled t?

Yet both here and when Varys tells him that Cersei ordered the death of the bastards, he never thinks, "Oh, she's doing it again" or "I should have known".

so your saying we take it with a pinch of salt, or saying it may not have happened? Of course its all about unreliable narration, but can we really disavow it?

btw, do make a thread! get more coffee.

[Dr. Pepper]

I vote new thread. I could go for an opportunity to perhaps have my views of Cersei changed, so long as the discussion steers clear of hate-flaming or slut-shaming.

[Winter's Knight]

so your saying we take it with a pinch of salt, or saying it may not have happened? Of course its all about unreliable narration, but can we really disavow it?

btw, do make a thread! get more coffee.

I think we can all benifit from a Poirotesque attitude: believe no one, and especially not people who have a vested interest in you believing them.

[Lady Lea]

I vote new thread. I could go for an opportunity to perhaps have my views of Cersei changed, so long as the discussion steers clear of hate-flaming or slut-shaming.

lol on a Cersei thread? it won't last long

[Winter's Knight]

I vote new thread. I could go for an opportunity to perhaps have my views of Cersei changed, so long as the discussion steers clear of hate-flaming or slut-shaming.

lol on a Cersei thread? it won't last long

Working on it.

Leah, here's a chance for another bingo card.

[Dr. Pepper]

lol on a Cersei thread? it won't last long

I have great faith in our dear Winter's Knight. She has a way with words, a way that almost makes me feel ensorcled to support her theory. :)

[Lady Lea]

Working on it.

Leah, here's a chance for another bingo card.

hahaha great! well I have to do some research on old Cersei hate threads.

I have great faith in our dear Winter's Knight. She has a way with words, a way that almost makes me feel ensorcled to support her theory. :)

I know, I love her posts! it's the rest of the forum I don't trust

[lilenadheas]

I think we can all benifit from a Poirotesque attitude: believe no one, and especially not people who have a vested interest in you believing them.

Fair enough.

[Winter's Knight]

hahaha great! well I have to do some research on old Cersei hate threads.

I know, I love her posts! it's the rest of the forum I don't trust

I have great faith in our dear Winter's Knight. She has a way with words, a way that almost makes me feel ensorcled to support her theory. :)

:blush:

Youze guyz.

[StannisBamfatheon]

Just woke up from a monster nap, look at this Cersei love fest! yikes. I can't help but shudder friends. Can we still debate Cersei on this thread or is there a new one?