King in the North or Warden of the North?

[Lord commander_Snow]

KING IN THE NORTH!!!!!!!!!11

[nothatso]

Why do you claim it's false when you do not have any evidence to prove otherwise? I have showed you mine, show me yours?

How can I believe anything you say when you provide no support for your claims? Am I supposed to believe you because you say so?

I feel like I'm arguing with a wall here.

I didn't claim anything other than that you were making an assumption without any textual basis while simultaneously denying the possibility that you could be wrong.

Because Jon is a bastard, and everytime she saw the bastard, she only saw Ned's unfaithfulness. Ned dishonored her by bringing the bastard home with him (although Ned probably lied to her about the birth-parents of Jon).

Bottomline, Catelyn hates Jon for simply being a "child" of Ned.

Catelyn herself raises the specter of the Blackfyres. Her underlying motive likely has something to do with Jon reminding her of Ned "dishonoring" her, but that's not what she says. She reminds Robb that legitimizing Jon could mean trouble because Jon or his progeny might claim Winterfell in the future. i.e. She views Jon as a potential claiment to the house, no matter what her motive is, and no matter how legal his claim.

Roose confessed that any child born with fat Walda would come before Ramsay Bolton due to the inheritance laws. Do you disagree?

Do you have a link or direct quotes? I honestly don't recall exactly what was said, and if you're again quoting the wiki then I'm not sure how trustworthy it is.

[The Fallen]

` Unless Dany and her dragons survive the war with the Others, a big IF, there probably won't be a unified Westeros. The seven kingdoms have been around for so much longer than a centralized Westeros controlled by one family, that the normal order of things would be an independent North, as well as the independence of the other regions of Westeros.

[nothatso]

Roose confessed that any child born with fat Walda would come before Ramsay Bolton due to the inheritance laws. Do you disagree?

So I found the quote myself.

"If she pops out sons the way she pops in tarts, the Dreadfort will soon be overrun with Boltons. Ramsay will kill them all, of course. That's for the best. I will not live long enough to see new sons to manhood, and boy lords are the bane of any House. Walda will grieve to see them die, though."

I concede this could be evidence for bastards inheriting after trueborn children, though on it's own I don't find it particularly compelling given there are no precedents for it actually happening, and this seems to be the only hint in the series towards it.

[Third World King]

I feel like I'm arguing with a wall here.

I didn't claim anything other than that you were making an assumption without any textual basis while simultaneously denying the possibility that you could be wrong.

All I am asking is how do you know I am wrong? How do you know legitimized bastards in Westeros come before true-born children when it comes to inheritance?

Catelyn herself raises the specter of the Blackfyres. Her underlying motive likely has something to do with Jon reminding her of Ned "dishonoring" her, but that's not what she says. She reminds Robb that legitimizing Jon could mean trouble because Jon or his progeny might claim Winterfell in the future. i.e. She views Jon as a potential claiment to the house, no matter what her motive is.

She disagreed with Robb because she hated Jon. She never forgave Jon for being a child of Ned, and having the bastard made potential heir of Winterfell (should all true-born children of Ned cease to exist) deeply distressed her.

Do you have a link or direct quotes? I honestly don't recall exactly what was said, and if you're again quoting the wiki then I'm not sure how trustworthy it is.

Go read A dance with dragons.

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=n-lPcJypkjcC&pg=PT506&lpg=PT506&dq=i+will+not+live+long+enough+to+see+new+sons+to+manhood+asoiaf&source=bl&ots=z1Nx4SxPd9&sig=n6kiW9tZ_gnBSgKQMyNmQ_0luLI&hl=en&sa=X&ei=6OENUOSYJub80QWqn4CoAw&ved=0CFEQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=i%20will%20not%20live%20long%20enough%20to%20see%20new%20sons%20to%20manhood%20asoiaf&f=false

[nothatso]

Go read A dance with dragons.

http://books.google.... asoiaf&f=false

You're a friendly one, aren't you.

[Third World King]

Jon is only a "bastard brother of the Night's watch" - and yet Ramsay, Catelyn, Robb, Stannis, and Cersei all view him as a potential claimant to House Stark.

Oh, I never saw this. How does Ramsay and Cersei view Jon as a potential claimant to the house of Stark? Ramsay refers to Jon as a bastard.

By the way, Stannis only views Jon as as potential heir to Winterfell, so that Jon can bend his knee to Stannis and swear fealty to the "rightful king" (probably by done burning the weirwood trees in Winterfell to the light god).

[Third World King]

You're a friendly one, aren't you.

I sure am, otherwise, I wouldn't have bothered digging up that passage you requested. :cool4:

[nothatso]

Oh, I never saw this. How does Ramsay and Cersei view Jon as a potential claimant to the house of Stark? Ramsay refers to Jon as a bastard.

By the way, Stannis only views Jon as as potential heir to Winterfell, so that Jon can bend his knee to Stannis and swear fealty to the "rightful king" (probably by done burning the weirwood trees in Winterfell to the light god).

Ramsay - if that letter was written by Ramsay - would be calling him a bastard to purposely irritate, demean, or goad him, note how it's used in a completely unnecessary fashion.

I'm curious as to what your explanation is for Ramsay writing those two letters to Jon is (if both were actually written by Ramsay). Only to dissuade him from rescuing his sister?

By the way, Stannis operates under the assumption that Sansa is alive (IIRC), and it's Jon who has to refuse Stannis and remind him that she is ahead of him in the line of succession.

[nothatso]

I sure am, otherwise, I wouldn't have bothered digging up that passage you requested. :cool4:

You didn't dig up a passage, you copy and pasted something from a wiki article and then told me to "go read ADWD".

[kg1982]

I've always thought that the idea that bastards are social outcasts is ridiculous. The main insights we get about bastards are from an emo 15 year old and a woman upset about her husband's affair. The North might prefer a 17-year-old with command experience to a five year old.

[David Selig]

IIRc Martin has said that legally it's a grey area what is the place of legitimised bastards in the succession. But I don't feel searching for the quote in SSM.

In Ramsay's case, given that he killed his older brother to become the heir, he might well fear the same thing would happen to him. Or that his brothers would overthrow him with support from his bannermen, who'd prefer to support someone who's not murderous psychopath.

[Third World King]

Ramsay - if that letter was written by Ramsay - would be calling him a bastard to purposely irritate, demean, or goad him, note how it's used in a completely unnecessary fashion.

He calls Jon a bastard, because Jon is indeed a bastard, and bastards never inherit anything before trueborn children. Ramsay knows fully well that Rickon and Bran are not dead, since he was the one who gave Theon the idea to kill the fake Stark kids. So, I completely disagree, Ramsay does not view Jon as a potential heir to Winterfell.

I'm curious as to what your explanation is for Ramsay writing those two letters to Jon is (if both were actually written by Ramsay). Only to dissuade him from rescuing his sister?

What two letters? The only letter I think that Ramsay wrote to Jon was the one in which informed the bastard about Stannis death, the lightbringer, Abel etc. The same letter in which he requested the return of his bride and his reek. Is there any other letter?

By the way, Stannis operates under the assumption that Sansa is alive (IIRC), and it's Jon who has to refuse Stannis and remind him that she is ahead of him in the line of succession.

Stannis gave his reason for giving Jon Winterfell before Sansa - he doesn't want any Lannister hands on it. However, I don't think Stannis is in any position of giving out lands and titles anywhere at the moment, given his present situation. I mean, the man got a force of only like 3 000 soldiers at most.

You didn't dig up a passage, you copy and pasted something from a wiki article and then told me to "go read ADWD".

I see. You did not even bother clicking the link I gave ya. Why did I even waste my time...

[nothatso]

What two letters? The only letter I think that Ramsay wrote to Jon was the one in which informed the bastard about Stannis death, the lightbringer, Abel etc. The same letter in which he requested the return of his bride and his reek. Is there any other letter?

Did Ramsay not write a letter "inviting" Jon to his wedding? Am I making this up?

Stannis gave his reason for giving Jon Winterfell before Sansa - he doesn't want any Lannister hands on it. However, I don't think Stannis is in any position of giving out lands and titles anywhere at the moment, given his present situation. I mean, the man got a force of only like 3 000 soldiers at most.

So you're saying there's a convenient plot device that places Jon ahead of Sansa in the eyes of certain members of the Westerosi nobility regardless of age and birth? Kind of like Bran being a cripple lost north of the wall? Or Rickon being far away on Skagos with absolutely no guarantee that he'll return any time soon? Or Arya "missing" and losing her identity while being across the sea murdering people?

I see. You did not even bother clicking the link I gave ya. Why did I even waste my time...

You gave two links to wiki articles of Theon and a map, which appear to have been carried over from you copy and pasting a piece of the article, which by the way is not a direct quote, that I looked up myself. The other link went directly to a book store.

[Tagganaro]

He calls Jon a bastard, because Jon is indeed a bastard, and bastards never inherit anything before trueborn children. Ramsay knows fully well that Rickon and Bran are not dead, since he was the one who gave Theon the idea to kill the fake Stark kids. So, he definitely does not view Jon as a potential heir to Winterfell.

I wouldn't go so far as to say Ramsay definitely doesn't view Jon as a potential heir to Winterfell, but point taken.

What two letters? The only letter I think that Ramsay wrote to Jon was the one in which informed the bastard about Stannis death, the lightbringer, Abel etc. The same letter in which he requested the return of his bride and his reek. Is there any other letter?

Yes there are 2 letters. The first one was written to what I imagine is all the houses in the North informing them of the upcoming nuptials between Ramsay and "Arya" and inviting them to Barrowtown to show their loyalty to the Lannister cause. Granted, I have no idea why this letter was sent to Jon- I mean typically the NW is informed of affairs in the North obviously but I have to imagine there was some gloating/trash talking involved in deciding to send this letter to Jon.

Stannis gave his reason for giving Jon Winterfell before Sansa - he doesn't want any Lannister hands on it. However, I don't think Stannis is in any position of giving out lands and titles anywhere at the moment, given his present situation. I mean, the man got a force of only like 3 000 soldiers at most.

Well, it's not just STannis who thinks this. This was the reason for Robb writing the will legitimizing Jon in the first place- He wouldn't allow Winterfell to fall into Lannister hands. But anyway, I disagree that this is Stannis's reason for offering WF to Jon. He wants the support of the North and he knows that the bastard who looks exactly like the Ned and has the awesome dire wolf to back it up will better win the support of the North than anything else.

[Third World King]

I've always thought that the idea that bastards are social outcasts is ridiculous. The main insights we get about bastards are from an emo 15 year old and a woman upset about her husband's affair. The North might prefer a 17-year-old with command experience to a five year old.

Westeros will always prefer a trueborn child before a bastard, regardless of age. Gendry would be a much better king than either Joffrey or Tommen but I didn't see anyone rushing to put the bastard on the throne.

[David Selig]

Westeros will always prefer a trueborn child before a bastard, regardless of age. Gendry would be a much better king than either Joffrey or Tommen but I didn't see anyone rushing to put the bastard on the throne.

It's not that simple. Half the realm supported Daemon Blackfire the bastard for the throne, for example.

[Third World King]

Did Ramsay not write a letter "inviting" Jon to his wedding? Am I making this up?

Oh, I totally forgot about the wedding invitation letter. Thanks for the correction.

So you're saying there's a convenient plot device that places Jon ahead of Sansa in the eyes of certain members of the Westerosi nobility regardless of age and birth? Kind of like Bran being a cripple lost north of the wall? Or Rickon being far away on Skagos with absolutely no guarantee that he'll return any time soon? Or Arya "missing" and losing her identity while being across the sea murdering people?

Wanderly knows that both Rickon and Bran are alive, so for Stannis to make Jon the lord of Winterfell before Ned's trueborn sons, he would have to go against the North itself.

Basically what I am saying is that Stannis has NO authority whatsoever to be giving out titles and lands in the North. He may be king to Davos, but he is no king in the North.

You gave two links to wiki articles of Theon and a map, which appear to have been carried over from you copy and pasting a piece of the article, which by the way is not a direct quote, that I looked up myself. The other link went directly to a book store.

Strange, when I click the link myself, it sends me directly to the quote. My apologies if I sent you a broken link.

[nothatso]

Wanderly knows that both Rickon and Bran are alive, so for Stannis to make Jon the lord of Winterfell before Ned's trueborn sons, he would have to go against the North itself.

I'm with Apple Martini (and a few others) on this. Manderly is up to something beyond what we're told. He says he knows Bran and Rickon are alive, and then points Davos towards Rickon, stating that if Davos brings him "his liege lord" he'll swear fealty to Stannis.

...but if Bran is alive, then Rickon wouldn't be his liege lord to begin with. It seems like Manderly may be playing with words so he won't have to swear to Stannis and won't be a liar for it. Either that or he's decided to give up on finding Bran.

[Third World King]

Yes there are 2 letters. The first one was written to what I imagine is all the houses in the North informing them of the upcoming nuptials between Ramsay and "Arya" and inviting them to Barrowtown to show their loyalty to the Lannister cause. Granted, I have no idea why this letter was sent to Jon- I mean typically the NW is informed of affairs in the North obviously but I have to imagine there was some gloating/trash talking involved in deciding to send this letter to Jon.

Thanks for the correction.

Well, it's not just STannis who thinks this. This was the reason for Robb writing the will legitimizing Jon in the first place- He wouldn't allow Winterfell to fall into Lannister hands. But anyway, I disagree that this is Stannis's reason for offering WF to Jon. He wants the support of the North and he knows that the bastard who looks exactly like the Ned and has the awesome dire wolf to back it up will better win the support of the North than anything else.

Correct you are. However, as with most Stannis plans, this was not well thought. Stannis is in no position to be handing out lands in the North ( and burning the weirwood trees in the process), since nobody recognizes him as king there.