The Promised Prince Posted July 27, 2012 Author Share Posted July 27, 2012 Even if she weren't hemorrhaging, there would have been a lot of blood. Bed of blood isn't just a metaphor, it's a fact. Childbirth is a messy bloody process. I'm not saying the blood would have been painting the room, but there is a surprising amount of blood involved. Technically you bleed during the birth, you bleed after the birth, you bleed for a long time after that. So yes there is a lot of blood. The person I was responding to asked if she could have died from complications month after and I noted that while you bleed for weeks after, the fact that there was still blood suggested it was more recently after the birth as opposed to months later.Another thing that came to my mind was Rhaegar wouldn't let Lyanna give birth without a maester or any kind of doctor/midwife right? And why ToJ? Why not inside Sunspear itself?I totally disagree. Dany will want the throne no matter what.Yes I agree with that, but will she force herself to be Queen or will that change once she learns that there is someone with a more powerful claim? That is why you can't rule out legitimacy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jem Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 Even if she weren't hemorrhaging, there would have been a lot of blood. Bed of blood isn't just a metaphor, it's a fact. Childbirth is a messy bloody process. I'm not saying the blood would have been painting the room, but there is a surprising amount of blood involved. Technically you bleed during the birth, you bleed after the birth, you bleed for a long time after that. So yes there is a lot of blood. The person I was responding to asked if she could have died from complications month after and I noted that while you bleed for weeks after, the fact that there was still blood suggested it was more recently after the birth as opposed to months later.Yes, I am aware that there is blood involved before, during and after child birth.Never-the-less, the 'bloody bed' and the 'bed of blood' are phrases that are a euphemism for the birthing bed. It doesn't literary mean that Lyanna was sitting there in a huge patch of blood or anything.And yes, obviously I agree, Lyanna wasn't lying there for months. Ned smells blood in the room, so presumably she is still bleeding, and if that is the case it is likely that she gave birth fairly recently. She was also fevered, so presumably an infection had set in as well. It looks as though she died of puerperal fever, so maybe she lingered up to a week or so after giving birth. Definitely not months, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 Another thing that came to my mind was Rhaegar wouldn't let Lyanna give birth without a maester or any kind of doctor/midwife right? And why ToJ? Why not inside Sunspear itself?A lot of us think there was a midwife: Wylla. As for not taking her to Sunspear, I doubt the Martells would go along with that for obvious reasons. And the whole point of the Tower of Joy was isolation and secrecy, probably as much from Aerys as from Robert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
butterbumps! Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 I was actually toying with that one. About Bran having his own agenda. Arya is always a possibility as well. I don't know though, it still seems doubtful to me. I would like a much grayer Jon Snow though (which, to be fair, we were promised). I've seen no evidence of it myself but perhaps things will change going forward.Actually, I have a fear that if Jon has to be truly resurrected that he would have Arya (dark sister) make the sacrifice to kill him when his "job is done" (on my assumption that "the undead" contribute to the unbalance, and have to return to the dead). Not as a Faceless Man quest, but something else- that Jon would be a kind of monster that she'd have to put down. But I have to think more on Bran- I do think there's the possibility there of a clash; Bran's already sliding down a treacherous path with his skin changing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tijde Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 There seems to be this grand assumption that the Starks between themselves, along with Jon, will invariably come to work together in the end. I'd like to see a scenario where that isn't necessarily the case.Yeah, I'm betting it doesn't happen this way. I've got some epileptic trees about what will happen, but I'm pretty convinced that this type of Stark Family Reunion And Consolidation Of Force Extravaganza won't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faint Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 Yeah, I'm betting it doesn't happen this way. I've got some epileptic trees about what will happen, but I'm pretty convinced that this type of Stark Family Reunion And Consolidation Of Force Extravaganza won't.Well, here's a toast to that thought (even if I tend to disagree on the likeliness of such a thing). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thetitansbastard Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 Yes I agree with that, but will she force herself to be Queen or will that change once she learns that there is someone with a more powerful claim. That is why you can't rule out legitimacy.If Aegon is real he already has a more powerful claim than Jon, if she is not going to believe him, why believe Jon?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faint Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 I don't think Jon will want to sit the Iron Throne but, even so, there might be probative evidence hidden in the tomb of his mother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nQthing Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 He may be a targ but he was raised in the north. Theon is hardly a greyjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Promised Prince Posted July 27, 2012 Author Share Posted July 27, 2012 A lot of us think there was a midwife: Wylla. As for not taking her to Sunspear, I doubt the Martells would go along with that for obvious reasons. And the whole point of the Tower of Joy was isolation and secrecy, probably as much from Aerys as from Robert.Well Wylla is too vague a character for me, doesn't even tell us where she's from not even her family name, we just know she served in Starfall, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Promised Prince Posted July 27, 2012 Author Share Posted July 27, 2012 If Aegon is real he already has a more powerful claim than Jon, if she is not going to believe him, why believe Jon??What if he's not? then Jon > Dany 's claim. still, legitimacy. What I'm saying is Daenery's mindset might change if she finds out about Jon being a Targ / Targ bastard, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFDanny Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 This thread just goes to show you that some people will argue over the wetness of water.I tend toward the heavily wet to soaked part of the spectrum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pitakon Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 What if he's not? then Jon > Dany 's claim. still, legitimacy. What I'm saying is Daenery's mindset might change if she finds out about Jon being a Targ / Targ bastard,yes her mindset will change from shut up usurper to sex and rock and roll baby.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jem Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 Well Wylla is too vague a character for me, doesn't even tell us where she's from not even her family name, we just know she served in Starfall,Well if she is just a servant, it is likely she doesn't even have a family name. She served at Starfall, she was a wet nurse to Ned Dayne and, allegedly, Jon Snow, several people believe that she was Jon's mother - what else do you want to know? And of course she is a vague character, the whole ToJ scenario is vague. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pitakon Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 or she could be a dyed up ashara dayne. wearing contacts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Promised Prince Posted July 27, 2012 Author Share Posted July 27, 2012 Well if she is just a servant, it is likely she doesn't even have a family name. She served at Starfall, she was a wet nurse to Ned Dayne and, allegedly, Jon Snow, several people believe that she was Jon's mother - what else do you want to know? And of course she is a vague character, the whole ToJ scenario is vague.Wylla is TOO vague if you ask me. If she's unimportant why even mention her name? I don't think she's just a wet nurse. I think she's someone else we already know or heard about. Remember, some characters from ASOIAF disregard using family names when they're in hiding. e.g. Griff, Arstan, etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jem Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 Well who then do you think she is? She just seems like a loyal servant to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pitakon Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 sheira seastar's descendant with bloodraven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Targaryen_Rubies Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 I think it depends on how he comes to learn of it, and whether it's told to him by a sympathetic party. I tend to think that he'll feel betrayed, but he's sort of reached a point in his arc where he thinks things through rather than just lash out; besides, he knows Ned was going to tell him of his mother the next time they'd met, so Jon at least knows that Ned intended to tell him the truth. I think he could be angry with Ned while still retaining his Stark identity- at least, I don't see him embracing being a Targ.Wouldn't he have to embrace, at least to an extent, the Targ side in order to complete the song of ice and fire? The starks are associated with the north and thus the embodiment of ice and the targs are described as dragons, "fire made flesh" so in order for Jon to be the prince that was promised he'd need to embody both ice and fire or is his blood enough to qualify as the fire portion? This is all assuming that he is the prince that was promised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Night Gathers Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 I don't believe he's a Targaryen either; or I don't want to believe it.I mean, from the beginning of the whole bloody series we learnt that looks are inherited when crossed with specific families. And then the big mystery reveal in the end will tell us that Jon Snow, who looks so much like his father, with the classic Stark look is a Targaryen! Come on. "But he had Lyanna for a mother, she looked like a Stark!"- Well I think it's cheap if the Targaryen features were washed over to completely normal features. (Grey eyes, brown hair) Especially since genes in ASOIAF seem to be magical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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