*SPOILERS* On ravens - from the latest excerpt on GRRM's site

[Rains]

I'm very curious to see who the Hooded Man will turn out to be. I don't think it's Theon himself ('Theon Durden'). I would like if he turned out to be Benjen but I don't really see a way for that to work. My crackpot du jour is that he's Brandon Stark's bastard son but that's completely unfounded, and more of a wishful thinking kinda thing than a proper theory. :lol:

You'd be horrible at new years resolutions :lmao: but I'm glad you don't quit. I'm glad no one quits, too many interesting opinions here and they *have* to be shared! xD

[SerLoin]

I'm very curious to see who the Hooded Man will turn out to be. I don't think it's Theon himself ('Theon Durden'). ...

"Theon Durden"

That made me lol.

[kissdbyfire]

"Theon Durden"

That made me lol.

Ha! The 'Theon has a split personality' theory, aka, the 'Theon Durden Theory'. :lol:

[Rhaquentis]

Ha! The 'Theon has a split personality' theory, aka, the 'Theon Durden Theory'. :lol:

I prefer to see a split personality in the books, cause it would make Theon's character even greater, rather than have GRRM use the warg thing again and again and again :(

[Warg of Dragons]

Ugh, no warging people. The Hodor thing is bad enough. Also, Theon is just reclaiming his identity, I don't want to see Bran interfere with that, and I don't think he will. Communicate with him maybe - take over his body, no.

Warg everything

[bemused]

It's the people on the boards who've used the warg thing again and again :D not GRRm...

I don't think there's been any real sign of a split personality in Theon, and I don't know why people would like to see GRRM mimic someone else's story.

I think he can come up with something else.

[Roby]

I think it's BR/Bran. I think they want Stannis to bring Theon in front of a weirwood but not to have him killed as a sacrifice.

I have a theory that's just that, a theory. I think Bran might skinchange into Theon when he’s brought before the weirwood. Bran knows the secret ways of Winterfell better than anyone.

AGoT, chapter 8, Bran II:

“When he got out from under it and scrambled up near the sky, Bran could see all of Winterfell in a glance. He liked the way it looked, spread out beneath him, only birds wheeling over his head while all the life of the castle went on below. Bran could perch for hours among the shapeless, rain-worn gargoyles that brooded over the First Keep, watching it all: the men drilling with wood and steel in the yard, the cooks tending their vegetables in the glass garden, restless dogs running back and forth in the kennels, the silence of the godswood, the girls gossiping beside the washing well. It made him feel like he was lord of the castle, in a way even Robb would never know.

It taught him Winterfell’s secrets too. The builders had not even leveled the earth; there were hills and valleys behind the walls of Winterfell. There was a covered bridge that went from the fourth floor of the bell tower across to the second floor of the rookery. Bran knew about that. And he knew you could get inside the inner wall by the south gate, climb three floors and run all the way around Winterfell through a narrow tunnel in the stone, and then come out on ground level at the north gate, with a hundred feet of wall looming over you. Even Maester Luwin didn’t know that, Bran was convinced.”

We know that dogs are the easiest animals to skinchange into.

ADwD, Prologue

Dogs were the easiest beasts to bond with; they lived so close to men that they were almost human. Slipping into a dog’s skin was like putting on an old boot, its leather softened by wear. As a boot was shaped to accept a foot, a dog was shaped to accept a collar, even a collar no human eye could see. Wolves were harder.

And Theon is presented to us, time and again, as a dog. This point is driven home throughout Dance.

ADwD, Reek II

Lord Ramsay laughed. “You’re not a man, Reek. You’re just my creature. You’ll have your wine, though. Walder, see to it. And fear not, I won’t return you to the dungeons, you have my word as a Bolton. We’ll make a dog of you instead. Meat every day, and I’ll even leave you teeth enough to eat it. You can sleep beside my girls. Ben, do you have a collar for him?”

ADwD, Reek II

Farther back came the baggage train—lumbering wayns laden with provisions and loot taken in the war, and carts crowded with wounded men and cripples. And at the rear, more Freys. At least a thousand, maybe more: bowmen, spearmen, peasants armed with scythes and sharpened sticks, freeriders and mounted archers, and another hundred knights to stiffen them.

Collared and chained and back in rags again, Reek followed with the other dogs at Lord Ramsay’s heels when his lordship strode forth to greet his father.

The way I see it, there is an awful lot of emphasis on Theon becoming a dog; we know Bran can skinchange into Hodor and use the weirnet; we know Theon is broken and guilt-ridden, possibly willing to do anything he can to atone to his betrayal; and he’s very likely going to be brought before a weirwood.

But dude the whole story till now shows that even after Brans great skinchanging ability distance does often makes it difficult for him to skinchange into Summer...The same was observed in Jon's case when Ghost was missing from him in the FoTC..(However Arya is in Bravoos and every night she dreams of Nymeria's activity.....so distance is not an issue for her). Also wont he already be warging in a WW Tree? But still the Raven calls out Theon's name and calls out of Tree! so maybe u r right....maybe something will be revealed....

[danana]

Does anyone think Asha's working... with Bran/BR? I can't imagine how that would end up happening, but it seems like the ravens are trying to support Asha's request given their shouts of "Tree" and "Theon." Or, alternatively, Bran/BR could be capitalizing on Asha's request. Either way though, I suspect that they have *something* planned to happen at the Weirwood tree. What that'll be seems pretty near impossible to predict given how little indication we're given of the full extent of Bran and BR's powers.

Another question though: what exactly are Bran and BR trying to achieve? My impression based on Bran's dream (the scary thing he saw that compelled him to wake up and give Summer his name) leads me to believe that they'll play an integral part in the war against the Others, so are they trying to get the North properly situated for the war? Or is Bran just being a ridiculously nice person and trying to help Theon just for Theon's sake? Anyway, I feel like this is probably mostly BR's work rather than Bran's, because as cool as Bran is I don't think he's experienced enough (with politics, not necessarily superpowers) to understand and manipulate the political situation.

[Catacombs]

Does anyone think Asha's working... with Bran/BR?

I don't think so. In her last POV chapter in ADWD she is pretty clear on how horrible she thinks it is to be burned alive. I think she is trying to get Theon a clean death instead of a painful one. This may dovetail with any plans Bran and BR might have or not.

I also think that she would prefer to see Stannis win and avenge her brother. I guess we'll know when WoW comes out...

[Theo1]

What if Asha has just outsmarted Stannis? She uses the argument to sacrifice Theon as a way to split Stannis from his southern lord of light followers. The northern clans are not tight with the dude, and then he would be split from his closer connections. With Theon outlive Stannis? We have all been talking about Stannis going after Winterfell, speculating on how he will do it. He sounds bad ass in the gift chapter, but maybe he is just about to fall. Why do the northern lords need him, in theirnown minds, if Arya either fake or real in their minds is now free. They actually seem to think southerners are wimps, so why follow Stannis?

[Harle The Handsome]

Exactly. But we know Bran can't talk to Stannis through the weirwood to convey whatever message he has for him. Sure, Theon 'heard' his name being whispered in the rustling of the weirwood leaves, as Eddard apparently did too. But it's not 'really' talking. It would be extremely difficult to convey any sort of message through the rustling of leaves, IMO. That's why Bran needs a vessel, and Theon might just be it.

Do we? We know that blood sacrifices have been made under heart trees before, but we do not know why. What if it takes a blood sacrifice to make the heart trees talk?

[Harle The Handsome]

Baratheon Crossing, on 05 August 2012 - 07:44 AM, said:

Personally, I feel Bran is obviously trying to send the mans a message. It's not the first time he's tried communicating with Theon and if I'm not mistaken Bloodraven has some limited speech capabilities warging into the ravens (don't have quotes on hand but I'll try to provide if necessary).

Please do.

There are several instances where ravens do things that appear to have forethought or changes in speech that raise flags. Two examples that come to the top of my head are when Mormont's raven says, "Jon Snow." Jon finds this odd bacause Mormont's raven was only known to say one world like snow or corn.

The other example is when Mormont's raven flys out of the large pot during the LC selection and was perceived as calling for Jon Snow's selection. People thought it was Sam's doing, but he claimed no part. The CotF also say they knew and taught men how to make the ravens speak the messages they carried. The conclusion is that greenseers can control and speak through ravens.

[FanTasy]

Quote: We know that blood sacrifices have been made under heart trees before, but we do not know why. What if it takes a blood sacrifice to make the heart trees talk?

If I recall correctly Bloodraven tells Bran he can't use the tree as a speaker..

What the trees / the old gods seem to do is enabling people to get in touch with themselves and in so doing hearing voices of people that matter to them, as Arya hears Ned's voice 'talking' to her. As Jon hears Bran 'talking'.

[kissdbyfire]

There are several instances where ravens do things that appear to have forethought or changes in speech that raise flags. Two examples that come to the top of my head are when Mormont's raven says, "Jon Snow." Jon finds this odd bacause Mormont's raven was only known to say one world like snow or corn.

The other example is when Mormont's raven flys out of the large pot during the LC selection and was perceived as calling for Jon Snow's selection. People thought it was Sam's doing, but he claimed no part. The CotF also say they knew and taught men how to make the ravens speak the messages they carried. The conclusion is that greenseers can control and speak through ravens.

And the main difference between ravens and weirwoods here is not that ravens have feathers and weirwood leaves, but rather that the first have vocal cords whereas the latter don't.

ETA: love your avi!

[Eddward Stark]

I like this theory about the possibility of Bran communicating through Theon very much.

Theon is pretty much broken (easier to warg into), but he's also remorseful at this point; I think he would pretty much do anything that Bran wants him to do. Another possibility is that Bran/Bloodraven have the Ravens speak, as The North Remembers just alluded to.

I envision a couple of possible scenarios:

1. Theon allows Bran to speak through him. To help convince the audience, Bloodraven* makes all of the ravens (dozens of them?) simultaneously quark "listen" or "Bran." That would get people's attention.
   
2. Or the ravens could still vocally support Theon's story without Bran having to warg into Theon. Bran can still communicate a couple of words to Theon through the weirwood, as he's done before. He could say "tell the whole truth," for example, and meanwhile Theon sees Bran's face again in the weirwood tree.
   

* Although Bran likely has the potential to grow more powerful than Bloodraven, I think BR has the proven ability to control multiple ravens at once. As an aside, I think it was BR who saved Sam and Ginny by controlling tons of ravens, not Coldhands. I think Coldhands is just a vessel of BR and is / used to be a wight, just how wights are probably puppets of whitewalkers. So it was BR all along.

[Harle The Handsome]

Quote: We know that blood sacrifices have been made under heart trees before, but we do not know why. What if it takes a blood sacrifice to make the heart trees talk?

If I recall correctly Bloodraven tells Bran he can't use the tree as a speaker..

What the trees / the old gods seem to do is enabling people to get in touch with themselves and in so doing hearing voices of people that matter to them, as Arya hears Ned's voice 'talking' to her. As Jon hears Bran 'talking'.

Bloodraven was specifically speaking about visions from the past. This makes sense from the perspective of timeline purity (lest a greenseer simply repeats past events until he creates the desired timeline - that would be way too OP). However, this is not the same as saying a greenseer cannot communicate in the present.

And the main difference between ravens and weirwoods here is not that ravens have feathers and weirwood leaves, but rather that the first have vocal cords whereas the latter don't.

Yes, but who is to say what can be gleaned by greenseers from blood sacrifices. Yes, it is sheer speculation, but then again so is a lot of what we discuss on these forums.

ETA: love your avi!

Danke

[mynci]

Having read all the posts in this thread, an alternative theory occurred to me, that whoever (Bran or BR) is controlling the ravens is trying to encourage Stannis to take Theon to the weirwood so as to communicate with Stannis - but not through rustling leaves or speaking through Theon's mouth. Instead the intention is so that theon can be executed in a ritual manner, and the tree can drink the blood, much like a blood sacrifice of old. Perhaps the purpose of the blood sacrifices was to enable communication with the Old Gods. Perhaps Bran needs a blood sacrifice to speak through the tree.

[FanTasy]

I have no idea what GRRM will come up with, but I have no doubt it will be well written and even believable.

A speaking tree accompanied by a choir of ravens that says to someone like Stannis and his followers: hey, I am Bran Stark, I want you now to do this and that and not do what you decided upon doing when you came to this place ... I doubt this will work out, but let's wait and see :cool4:

[bully]

I think it's BR/Bran. I think they want Stannis to bring Theon in front of a weirwood but not to have him killed as a sacrifice.

I have a theory that's just that, a theory. I think Bran might skinchange into Theon when he’s brought before the weirwood. Bran knows the secret ways of Winterfell better than anyone.

AGoT, chapter 8, Bran II:

“When he got out from under it and scrambled up near the sky, Bran could see all of Winterfell in a glance. He liked the way it looked, spread out beneath him, only birds wheeling over his head while all the life of the castle went on below. Bran could perch for hours among the shapeless, rain-worn gargoyles that brooded over the First Keep, watching it all: the men drilling with wood and steel in the yard, the cooks tending their vegetables in the glass garden, restless dogs running back and forth in the kennels, the silence of the godswood, the girls gossiping beside the washing well. It made him feel like he was lord of the castle, in a way even Robb would never know.

It taught him Winterfell’s secrets too. The builders had not even leveled the earth; there were hills and valleys behind the walls of Winterfell. There was a covered bridge that went from the fourth floor of the bell tower across to the second floor of the rookery. Bran knew about that. And he knew you could get inside the inner wall by the south gate, climb three floors and run all the way around Winterfell through a narrow tunnel in the stone, and then come out on ground level at the north gate, with a hundred feet of wall looming over you. Even Maester Luwin didn’t know that, Bran was convinced.”

We know that dogs are the easiest animals to skinchange into.

ADwD, Prologue

Dogs were the easiest beasts to bond with; they lived so close to men that they were almost human. Slipping into a dog’s skin was like putting on an old boot, its leather softened by wear. As a boot was shaped to accept a foot, a dog was shaped to accept a collar, even a collar no human eye could see. Wolves were harder.

And Theon is presented to us, time and again, as a dog. This point is driven home throughout Dance.

ADwD, Reek II

Lord Ramsay laughed. “You’re not a man, Reek. You’re just my creature. You’ll have your wine, though. Walder, see to it. And fear not, I won’t return you to the dungeons, you have my word as a Bolton. We’ll make a dog of you instead. Meat every day, and I’ll even leave you teeth enough to eat it. You can sleep beside my girls. Ben, do you have a collar for him?”

ADwD, Reek II

Farther back came the baggage train—lumbering wayns laden with provisions and loot taken in the war, and carts crowded with wounded men and cripples. And at the rear, more Freys. At least a thousand, maybe more: bowmen, spearmen, peasants armed with scythes and sharpened sticks, freeriders and mounted archers, and another hundred knights to stiffen them.

Collared and chained and back in rags again, Reek followed with the other dogs at Lord Ramsay’s heels when his lordship strode forth to greet his father.

The way I see it, there is an awful lot of emphasis on Theon becoming a dog; we know Bran can skinchange into Hodor and use the weirnet; we know Theon is broken and guilt-ridden, possibly willing to do anything he can to atone to his betrayal; and he’s very likely going to be brought before a weirwood.

the fact he was brought down as a dog doesn't have anything do with it, then. People can be warged, because he is a "loser" or a "dog" he would probably 'put his tail between his legs", is that what you think?

But what good would be for Bran to warg into Theon? The only possibility is for Bran to talk to him through toughts...or, to see things of winteerfell, but he doesn't need Theon for that.

I feel something very trick about ravens in general, though. Especially Mormont's raven, that says Jon Snow name (the day he died!!!!) and before that this same raven said to Sam when he was overwhelmed by wights "go, go, go", or "flee" or something like that;... They certainly have an utter ego, or reason behind... For all we know, BR can be warging all the ravens at once

[bully]

Having read all the posts in this thread, an alternative theory occurred to me, that whoever (Bran or BR) is controlling the ravens is trying to encourage Stannis to take Theon to the weirwood so as to communicate with Stannis - but not through rustling leaves or speaking through Theon's mouth. Instead the intention is so that theon can be executed in a ritual manner, and the tree can drink the blood, much like a blood sacrifice of old. Perhaps the purpose of the blood sacrifices was to enable communication with the Old Gods. Perhaps Bran needs a blood sacrifice to speak through the tree.

Bran has connection to the tree and Old Gods, yes. The blood offering has power, yes. He will speak through the trees? No.Blood can't make a tree grow tongue and mouth. At some point people will know that a greenseer still exists, and i can see it already Bran coming up mounted an striped to Summer's back and all, commanding a army of beasts. But speak throught the tree? No. Even BR can't do that.