*SPOILERS* On ravens - from the latest excerpt on GRRM's site

[Black Wolf Smith]

The Starks have food and such, stored under ground. I think its in aGoT but not sure.

[Tenshi]

Two examples of what I'm talking about, both from Dance. The first is a lesson BR gives Bran when Bran sees Eddard through the weirnet.

“But,” said Bran, “he heard me.”

“He heard a whisper on the wind, a rustling amongst the leaves. You cannot speak to him, try as you might. I know. I have my own ghosts, Bran. A brother that I loved, a brother that I hated, a woman I desired. Through the trees, I see them still, but no word of mine has ever reached them. The past remains the past. We can learn from it, but we cannot change it.”

Then Theon in the godswood:

Theon found himself wondering if he should say a prayer.Will the old gods hear me if I do? They were not his gods, had never been his gods. He was ironborn, a son of Pyke, his god was the Drowned God of the islands … but Winterfell was long leagues from the sea. It had been a lifetime since any god had heard him. He did not know who he was, or what he was, why he was still alive, why he had ever been born.

“Theon,” a voice seemed to whisper.

His head snapped up. “Who said that?” All he could see were the trees and the fog that covered them. The voice had been as faint as rustling leaves, as cold as hate. A god’s voice, or a ghost’s. How many died the day that he took Winterfell? How many more the day he lost it? The day that Theon Greyjoy died, to be reborn as Reek. Reek, Reek, it rhymes with shriek

BR's specific objection against weirnet contacting is that you cannot change the past. The objection says nothing about weirnetting someone in the present. And BR isn't allknowing. Perhaps they can send messages to the past. They just can't change it (a common solution to the time traveler's paradox). Worst case, your message turns out to cause the very thing you tried to prevent.

[kissdbyfire]

BR's specific objection against weirnet contacting is that you cannot change the past. The objection says nothing about weirnetting someone in the present. And BR isn't allknowing. Perhaps they can send messages to the past. They just can't change it (a common solution to the time traveler's paradox). Worst case, your message turns out to cause the very thing you tried to prevent.

Only that's not the point I was making. :)

Of course Bran can use the weirwood, but he can't talk. He talks on his end, but people on the other end hear only the rustling of leaves. So it would make sense for Bran to have a vessel, a human body he could slip into to convey whatever he wanted to Stannis - including that Theon didn't kill them.

[bemused]

I'm in agreement with kissedbyfire on this.. Theon already wants to communicate with the "Old Gods" , to explain himself , to ask to find a way to redemption, to pray to at least die a man , and not as Ramsay's creature . He has already opened himself to "them" , to a degree.

I've been holding forth on some of the TWoW threads in this vein. I see it as akin to " channeling " in our world. ...People go into light or deep trance to allow some outside , unseen source to speak through them. Often this happens for the first time when a person is exhausted , or has been traumatized in some way..when their normal mental defenses are down. If they want to continue to do it, they can learn to relax those defenses at will. Sometimes they're completely unaware of what is said..sometimes they're aware, but as surprised as anyone else at what comes out of their mouths.

So , I've wondered what might happen spontaneously , when Theon is taken to the weirwood... I remember that when Jaquen swore to Arya to carry out her third request , they were in the godswood in Harrenhall . He placed his hand in the mouth of the heart tree while he swore by the gods... and I'm wondering if this will turn out to be a formal ritual well known in the North ( as we might place our hand on a bible, koran , etc. as proof of our veracity ) . I can't help feeling that if Theon has to actually touch the tree ,that could be the moment of breakthrough for Bran to speak through him.

[Arya Targaryen]

Jon Snow and Theon Greyjoy is probably the most UNideal alliance I can imagine. Jon didn't like or trust Theon even BEFORE everything that happened in A Clash of Kings. Theon may live, but Jon will never trust him with anything.

That much is true, but Jon has proven so far he doesn't need to trust someone to make a use of him. And actually I think Jon will have a better chance than Robb did because he doesn't trust or like Theon. You can only betray someone who trusts you. Theon have no chance whatsoever to betray Jon (in case the two meet again and form some sort of alliance), because Jon doesn't trust him, and Theon knows it.

About Bran warging Theon in front of the ww tree: It would be fun to read, I just don't see the point. No way Stannis would realize it's Bran who is talking and not Theon. And why would he listen to Theon, whatever he might say?

[aryagonnakill]

I have to disagree on some simple grounds. You are taking as fact that Bran cannot simply talk through the trees, we don't know this, we are just told this by bloodraven. I have not read the dunk and egg stories so I don't know everything about bloodraven, but I would be willing to bet that Bran has more power in raw terms. My opposing theory is that Bran simply talks through the tree and the reason for the trees having full faces finally becomes apparent. I believe that if Bran is going to warg someone besides Hodor it will be Patchface, it seems that so far we have been given a great deal of info on Patchface for no reason.

[bemused]

It might make no difference if Stannis knew it was Bran or not , depending on what is said. All that would be needed would be for Bran to offer some information that some of the onlookers would know to be true that Theon would have no way of knowing.

E.G some of the northmen with Stannis already know that at least Bran and possibly Rickon are alive ( we know a Liddle met Bran )..Mormont's raven has seen a lot of what has passed when Stannis was at the wall..Theon might reveal something that Stannis knows to be true..if Stannis knew of the Mance / Rattleshirt glamour, as I think he might , that would do the trick..or it might be any number of things.

The point might be to convince Stannis that the ravens might indeed be able to fly to Castle Black ( if Stannis turns out to be the author of the letter ) or to inform him of Manderly's , and the other northerners inside WF 's true allegiance , ..maybe something of Davos , who passed by the weirwood in White Harbour in company with Robbett Glover..Bran could know that the head on the walls of WH belonged to someone else ...or something else that we don't know of.

[Jalapenohitchhiker]

I don't necessarily see Bran trying to warg into Theon. Hodor usually struggles when Bran wargs him, so imagine what Theon might do if faced with that kind of power. I don't think Bran would want to hurt Theon like that if he is trying to tell him something important.

[alienarea]

Theon as a ward and Jon as a bastard have a mirror story for a long time. Now Theon is ready to die while Jon might actually be dying. IMHO either Theon pays with his life for Jon to live or Jon dying pays for Theon getting new health.

Theon = The one?

[bemused]

Why are we so hell bent on transposing a foreign system of magic into Westeros ? Miri Maz Dur gave us " only death pays for life "..and that may be true in the magic she works, but that doesn't mean we must take it as universally true in all forms of magic.

It's hinted that the first men practiced human sacrifice..but we still don't know whether what Bran saw was a sacrifice or execution of a criminal ..we don't know if the entrails draped on the branches of the WH weirwood were pleasing to the Old Gods, or not ... So far , the CoTF have mentioned nothing about living sacrifices being made to the Gods..I suppose the fate of the greenseers can be seen that way , but that's for the benefit of the living ,so that they may understand the Gods and their history better. There's nothing to say the Gods have ever made any demands or bargains along those lines.

Bran tasted the blood because the tree tasted the blood , as it would taste anything.. if a dog lifted it's leg , or someone poured out a cup of mead, or if it rained..etc...and who knows which would be more pleasing to the Gods ?

[kissdbyfire]

I don't necessarily see Bran trying to warg into Theon. Hodor usually struggles when Bran wargs him, so imagine what Theon might do if faced with that kind of power. I don't think Bran would want to hurt Theon like that if he is trying to tell him something important.

Hodor struggles because he doesn't understand what's going on. He's afraid of it and an unwilling participant..

[The Red Hand]

I personally think that the ravens were BR's work. Hes shown that he can control a large amount of ravens over a long distance like when he saved Sam from the wights in ASOS. Bran just mastered warging a single raven recently. Also, I think that in terms of power/potential that Bran will be more powerful than bloodraven, so maybe he can communicate with others through the heart tree like ayagonnakill said. Ned looks up when Bran speaks and Theon hears his name, I don't think thats coincidence.

[kissdbyfire]

No, it's not a coincidence. Yes, both Theon and Eddard hear the rustling of leaves, not Bran's voice.

[The Red Hand]

No, it's not a coincidence. Yes, both Theon and Eddard hear the rustling of leaves, not Bran's voice.

It's not coincidence that Eddard hears this rustling just as Bran speaks or that Theon hears his name but wonders whether the sound might have been leaves rustling. To me, these signs point to Bran being able to communicate through the trees. Earlier in the series Osha catches Bran praying for Robb and Theon's safety and asks him if he hears the gods talking back. When Bran says it's only the wind she says:

"Who do you think sends the wind, if not the gods? They see you boy. They hear you talking. That rustling, that's them talking back."

[FanTasy]

Personally, I feel Bran is obviously trying to send the mans a message. It's not the first time he's tried communicating with Theon and if I'm not mistaken Bloodraven has some limited speech capabilities warging into the ravens (don't have quotes on hand but I'll try to provide if necessary).

Please do.

[kissdbyfire]

It's not coincidence that Eddard hears this rustling just as Bran speaks or that Theon hears his name but wonders whether the sound might have been leaves rustling. To me, these signs point to Bran being able to communicate through the trees. Earlier in the series Osha catches Bran praying for Robb and Theon's safety and asks him if he hears the gods talking back. When Bran says it's only the wind she says:

"Who do you think sends the wind, if not the gods? They see you boy. They hear you talking. That rustling, that's them talking back."

Yes, and that's precisely what I have been saying, to a degree. Bran can make someone aware of a presence. Both Eddard and Theon don't recognise his voice, nor that it is a human voice. They feel their names being spoken more than hear them exactly. The actual sound they hear is the rustling of leaves. Martin has said time and again that he doesn't like things that don't make sense. It a human voice starts coming out of a tree, no matter what tree it is, it won't make sense because trees don't have vocal cords. Yes, I know it's a fantasy novel with dragons and sorcery and whathaveyou. Still, imo, things must make sense.

I just can't imagine Bran really and meaningfully communicating with anyone through the rustling of leaves. Just my take on it, obviously. :)

[kissdbyfire]

In the old days the ravens with skinchangers would convey the messages orally. Maybe that's what Baratheon Crossing is talking about.

[The Red Hand]

I never said that Bran litterally spoke to them, only that there was some kind of communication going on. And if ancient greenseers were able to control the elements, who says they can't make rustling leaves sound like words like Osha said or use some other way of communication. And the raven thing is totally different, this was presumably wargs warging into animals that knew how to speak.

[kissdbyfire]

I don't really know of you're deliberately not understanding what I'm saying but I can't explain it any better than I did the previous times, sorry... :)

[Tharvot]

The ravens going nuts is definitely a sign that Bran (or BloodRaven) is trying to reach out to Theon & Stannis. To what end is unknown.

Personally, I think Bran will be able to somehow communicate to Theon and Stannis through the weirwood. It will be some kind of whispering communication, similar to the visions that the red priests can see through their fires. Somehow, this will extend Theon's life and will aid Stannis. No human warging will go on through that visit. Bran is ashamed of warging into Hodor, and though he hasn't been told of it, he already knows that it is wrong. During the wildling prologue, we are told that human warging is considered an abomination.

Long story short, I think Bran will be able to serve as a spy for Stannis. He can look in on WF unnoticed and relay his visions via the ravens.