Heresy 20

[Stark@heart]

I've always felt it was the life force of Craster's sons that's being used to feed/ power the Others. As for the sheep - As we saw, Craster just leaves his offering so who knows if they even bother collecting the sheep. They could be taken by animals and Craster wouldn't know. If babies/sons are so important or needed then it sounds like blood magic and if it is then sheeps blood seems to me a poor substitute to work the magic they need - they could just eat them. :stillsick:

The Others being dependant on Starks, Crasters and others like them to supply them with a baby so they can live / have power or reproduce doesn't seem right to me.

[Eyron]

About the Drowned God, he brought flame from the sea and sailed the world with fire and sword.

I don't think that rhymes with him being an Other or connected to the Great Other very clearly. Sounds more like this AA guy I've been hearing so much about... But, there is the aspect of the what is dead may never die, but rises harder and stronger. I think that can have something to do with wights or undead, perhaps.

Another interesting story from the Ironborns mythology is that the Drowned God's nemesis was the Storm God, who had ravens as his creatures. And ravens we know were the creatures of the Children, so there is that connection perhaps. Maybe this is an early myth about how the Ironborn separated from the other First Men, after some guy came sailing over the Sunset sea, from the west, with a flame and sword.

You may guess what's coming... Yes I have yet another AAR candidate, one that has been proposed before but for other reasons...

Theon :leaving:

[Ser Leftwich]

My recollection is that those with green or red eyes have greensight, but that isn't necesarily the same as a greenseer. After all Jojen has greensight, but BloodRaven is referred to as the last greenseer, while Bran is still in training anyways. The Ghost of Highheart at red eyes if I can remember correctly, and she had greensight, although it was never officially confirmed that she was COTF.

Bloodraven speaking to Bran, ADwD.

In a sense. Those you call the children of the forest have eyes as golden as the sun, but once in a great while one is born amongst them with eyes as red as blood, or green as the moss on a tree in the heart of the forest. By those signs do the gods mark those they have chosen to receive the gift.

The way it is worded the eye coloring may only apply to the CotF. It also might be a language problem for Bloodraven, it has been a long time since he spoke.

We also have the:

"Only one man in a thousand is born a skinchanger,"Lord Brynden said one day, after Bran had learned to fly, "and only one skinchanger in a thousand can be a greenseer."

We do not have a full definition about the difference between what Bran can do and what Jojen can do, interesting though that Bran can see the past/present and Jojen the future.

We have fire magic that can see the future: Targ dreams and R'hllorists look at the fires. Is there any fire magic that can look into the past?

[greygnarl]

I believe that the Starks may have originally fought with the Others but as the Others receded into the Far North and didn't come within sight of the Wall They began to wonder why they didn't ally with their neighbors to the south.

Also, what if the Starks were defeated by the forces of fire and surrendured. Then the Night's King fled North to the Wall with a loyal contingent, enlisted whoever manned the Nightfort and fought on.

[Stark@heart]

The Glass Candles would be a good candidate. They burn without consuming and it is a single flame that does not flicker and cannot be blown out. Otherwise, the flames and shadows shift, like the future does. I think it would take a steady flame to see the past, if that makes sense.

[Stark@heart]

I believe that the Starks may have originally fought with the Others but as the Others receded into the Far North and didn't come within sight of the Wall They began to wonder why they didn't ally with their neighbors to the south.

Also, what if the Starks were defeated by the forces of fire and surrendured. Then the Night's King fled North to the Wall with a loyal contingent, enlisted whoever manned the Nightfort and fought on.

This idea is what made me Crackpot once about maybe the Stark/ Night King happened after Aegon but it didn't get any Heresy traction and died but I still like it.

[greygnarl]

I don't think the Night's King came after Aegon, did it seem like that?

[Stark@heart]

I do. Which I know is out there but the whole timeline is wack since apparently no one in the Westeros or the entire ASOIAF world can work a calendar.

Is it really that hard to scratch some marks on a wall?

[Été]

This idea is what made me Crackpot once about maybe the Stark/ Night King happened after Aegon but it didn't get any Heresy traction and died but I still like it.

Opinions vary on how much time passed between the Long Night, the raising of the Wall, the Andal invasion, and Aegon's Landing... but I reckon the NW probably got through more than 12 Lord Commanders while all that was going on ;)

[Stark@heart]

But maybe calling him the 413th LC or the 713th LC didn't have the same ring.

Or maybe he was the 13th since Aegon - (oooh, I like that and I just made it up on the spot. )

[greygnarl]

I do. Which I know is out there but the whole timeline is wack since apparently no one in the Westeros or the entire ASOIAF world can work a calendar.

Is it really that hard to scratch some marks on a wall?

I think they did scratch marks on the wall but the people who translated it or came to control it wrote their own histories and destroyed the old to make themselves look good.

[Stark@heart]

The Arch Maesters of the Citadel are behind the screwed up timeline of the Westeros, I think. It seems like the rest of the world, after the fall of Valyeria and Old Gris, didn't do very well with record keeping either though.

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

Bloodraven speaking to Bran, ADwD.

The way it is worded the eye coloring may only apply to the CotF. It also might be a language problem for Bloodraven, it has been a long time since he spoke.

We also have the:

We do not have a full definition about the difference between what Bran can do and what Jojen can do, interesting though that Bran can see the past/present and Jojen the future.

We have fire magic that can see the future: Targ dreams and R'hllorists look at the fires. Is there any fire magic that can look into the past?

None of this is at odds with what I said.

When Mel looks into the flames in her POV, she hears 'Lot Seven' and someone yells the name "Melony". It's pretty common for people to interpret this as things from her own past that she is seeing in the flames. So I think the answer is yes, but fire magic seems far less literal than the weirwood net.

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

Unrelated - Black Crow... why are your smiley faces communists?

Regarding Winterfell, its name, its crypts, and its ghosts, which came up at the end of the last thread:

-Legend has it Brandon the Builder built the Wall and Winterfell after the Long Night. That may not be the (whole) truth, but I find it curious that Winterfell, too, is linked in common knowledge to the the Wall and the Long Night.

-it's been speculated that the Nightfort, not Winterfell, used to be the seat of the Stark Kings of Winter. At the very least, it seems to be an unusual location to build a major stronghold, and it seems to have started out quite small (the upperground part).

-However, the Kings of Winter are buried in the crypt of Winterfell. It's possible that Winterfell started out as a burial ground, not as the seat of House Stark.

-The Stark burial rites are one of the first things we learn about in GoT, which as a whole is quite heavy with foreshadowing. Swords and direwolves to keep the spirits from wandering. Also, there must always be a Stark in Winterfell.

-As for the meaning of the word Winterfell, I find Winter Hill more convincing than Winter's Fall. For one, it's supported by real world geographical names, and then we have Starfall as an in-story example of -fall to actually mean 'fall.'

-The word Sidhe literally means 'mounds.' I don't think there's going to be 100% similarity between Sidhe and the Others, but the mounds are a big part of the Sidhe mythology, to the point of the word being used interchangeably for the people and their abodes. I will now shame myself by quoting Wikipedia:

I'm wondering: is there a link between Winterfell and the Long Night and the Sidhe/Others? Was Winterfell built in defense, like the Wall? A burial ground, perpetually guarded by a Stark? Are there ghosts in the crypts, or is something else coming alive?

First time heretic here, and still reading through the older threads. If anyone can point me in the direction of any Winterfell/crypts/Sidhe/Others theories, that would be great (or the Stark-Nightfort theory - I've seen it mentioned, but not fully explained.)

Taking the risk of not having caught up with the first page and a half yet... mayhaps I'll be editting this momentarily because it's already been said... But regarding the above bolded, might I suggest you do a search for Winterfell, Heresy, Nightfort, Outpost

You should come up with some exceptionally interesting exchanges a few versions back where we discussed the possibility of Winterfell/Nightfort having an Osgiliath/Minas Tirith -esque relationship. (What was once the main stronghold is now abandoned, and what was previously the fortress (MT)/Outpost (WF) is now the main stronghold, with the former being abandoned.

[Efilnikufesin]

Bloodraven speaking to Bran, ADwD.

The way it is worded the eye coloring may only apply to the CotF. It also might be a language problem for Bloodraven, it has been a long time since he spoke.

I would say that the eye thing applies to humans as well, look at Bloodraven himself, red eyes. Plus I keep having a problem with them calling BR "The Last Greenseer." Is Bran a greenseer, or is he something else? Could be reading more into it, but Bran's blue eyes give me suspicions.

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

Unrelated - Black Crow... why are your smiley faces communists?

Regarding Winterfell, its name, its crypts, and its ghosts, which came up at the end of the last thread:

-it's been speculated that the Nightfort, not Winterfell, used to be the seat of the Stark Kings of Winter. At the very least, it seems to be an unusual location to build a major stronghold, and it seems to have started out quite small (the upperground part).

-However, the Kings of Winter are buried in the crypt of Winterfell. It's possible that Winterfell started out as a burial ground, not as the seat of House Stark.

-The Stark burial rites are one of the first things we learn about in GoT, which as a whole is quite heavy with foreshadowing. Swords and direwolves to keep the spirits from wandering. Also, there must always be a Stark in Winterfell.

-As for the meaning of the word Winterfell, I find Winter Hill more convincing than Winter's Fall. For one, it's supported by real world geographical names, and then we have Starfall as an in-story example of -fall to actually mean 'fall.'

-The word Sidhe literally means 'mounds.' I don't think there's going to be 100% similarity between Sidhe and the Others, but the mounds are a big part of the Sidhe mythology, to the point of the word being used interchangeably for the people and their abodes. I will now shame myself by quoting Wikipedia:

Taking the risk of not having caught up with the first page and a half yet... mayhaps I'll be editting this momentarily because it's already been said... But regarding the above bolded, might I suggest you do a search for Winterfell, Heresy, Nightfort, Outpost

You should come up with some exceptionally interesting exchanges a few versions back where we discussed the possibility of Winterfell/Nightfort having an Osgiliath/Minas Tirith -esque relationship. (What was once the main stronghold is now abandoned, and what was previously the fortress (MT)/Outpost (WF) is now the main stronghold, with the former being abandoned.

In the end of H19 there was some interesting speculation about the Others and their possible connection to mists, shadows, and even the dead.

[disclaimer: I refuse to call the Others Sidhe because I take that comment by GRRM as a visual reference only]

We know that the White Walkers have bones that melt as well, and that the Wights only stop when there bones are cracked. And, in Westeros, the bones remember.

Hear Hear. Despite the similarities, I do feel some of us have reworked their entire perception of the series based on that comment... quite a few of my fellow regulars here have really invested ALOT into what I fear is little more than a visual description. I do wish someone would put forthe a follow up question re: Sidhe comment at the next little nerd-summit.

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

- if dragons are fire made flesh, the Others are ice made flesh?

I fear the "Fire made flesh" was more metaphorical than elemental in the way we speak of the Others being literally made of ice....Dany thinks (probably from a quote made by some learned Westerosi back when...) that they truly are "Fire made flesh", but certainly they are actual flesh & bone as well. If you prick them, they will bleed. Their skulls long adorned the Red Keep, and now gather dust.

The Walkers seem to remarkably ice-like in their propensity to melt when off'd.

(Random thought, forgive me, it's been a long day at a new job and I'm enjoying a beverage or two... Has anyone ever thought it's a real shame that no one has invented gun powder yet? Not even like the most primitive bombards or sappers?)

[Ser Leftwich]

I would say that the eye thing applies to humans as well, look at Bloodraven himself, red eyes. Plus I keep having a problem with them calling BR "The Last Greenseer." Is Bran a greenseer, or is he something else? Could be reading more into it, but Bran's blue eyes give me suspicions.

The title of Last Greenseer is quite ominous, I think unnecessarily so, although the CotF do not seem melodramatic.

Also, the line that BR gives about eyes is about CotF, not necessarily humans, but I have my doubts along with you, Efilnikufesin. Another theory about the eyes was that the eye color (blood red or moss green) comes with time and/or practice of the greensight-seer-dream arts. Jojen is older than Bran and has been Greening for longer and green eyes are much less suspicious than red ones. And BR has been Greening for.... 100 or so years, and he is an albino so odd/reddish eye color would be relatively, not a big deal.

If/when Bran's eyes turn red, then we have hit paydirt.

[Ser Leftwich]

Snip

(Random thought, forgive me, it's been a long day at a new job and I'm enjoying a beverage or two... Has anyone ever thought it's a real shame that no one has invented gun powder yet? Not even like the most primitive bombards or sappers?)

Smells like Matrim Cauth...., I mean Samwell Tarly has a plot line to follow. (I have also had a beverage or two.)

[nanother]

I'm too tired to post anything meaningful, but I have to say that I really liked Alarum's ideas towards the end of the previous thread. I also liked the idea of the WW being something vaguely like Mel's shadow babies (I guess they'd be 'mist babies'), which came up I think two threads ago? I guess the common element is that the WW are neither a race on their own, nor magically transformed humans, but magically condensed ghosts/spirits/whatever. Will think about this when I have a working brain...

Re 'last greenseer': it could be shorthand for 'the last fully trained greenseer still capable of passing on the knowledge'. I mean, we also have those enthroned Children who still seem to react to Hodor/Bran's presence, so have to be somewhat alive, and presumably they're greenseers as well...

(I wonder what they're up to, if anything)

I agree that Bran having normal eyes is somewhat odd, but no idea what to make of it...