Black Wolf Smith Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 For the question about Albino's eyes, my ex-wifes cousins (1 mail and 1 female) were both albino and had yellowish/off white iris that had a red tint around the edges, not the whole eye.While I don't believe the Meera/jon twin thing, the wiki has both born in 283( yea I know that means nothing)when you say skinchanging you are referring to warg's?Dam this thread moves fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spoony Bard Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 when you say skinchanging you are referring to warg's?Skinchanging is the generic term, where as warging is skinchanging with a wolf or direwolf. All wargs are skinchangers but not all skinchangers are wargs. With reference to the Starks, I used skinchanging just because of Bran and Arya's experience with the cat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted August 9, 2012 Author Share Posted August 9, 2012 Spinning off the business of Catelyn Tully, we have discussed before how the female side seems to be more important than the male for passing things on and that gives me pause to wonder whether the question of Jon's real parentage or rather his father might not be a red herring.This isn't the place to discuss R+L=J, but those adhering to it seem to broadly fall into two camps, believing that either (1) Jon was actually legitimate and therefore is Jon Targaryen, rightful king of Westeros, or (2) that he is the Ice Dragon, the child of ice and fire, the balancer etc etc.I've been guilty of (2) myself, but never quite comfortable with it and now thinking of the ladies...We have an undoubted Targaryen bastard in the form of Bloodraven, but in his case as we've discussed, the Targaryen connection doesn't seem significant at all. In his younger days he was Bryden Rivers and apparently a Targaryen loyalist of the first water, but latterly if not in fact before its his mother's blood and influence which has won out. Its Bryn Blackwood who is with the Children and the Old Gods, not Bryden Targaryen.Might this also be the case with Jon? Notwithstanding his father (probably) being Rhaegar Targaryen, is it Jon Stark we're going to see embracing the legacy of the Winterfell crypts?ETA: edited to get rid of automatic emoticons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alienarea Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 Spinning off the business of Catelyn Tully, we have discussed before how the female side seems to be more important than the male for passing things on and that gives me pause to wonder whether the question of Jon's real parentage or rather his father might not be a red herring.This isn't the place to discuss R+L=J, but those adhering to it seem to broadly fall into two camps, believing that either (1) Jon was actually legitimate and therefore is Jon Targaryen, rightful king of Westeros, or (2) that he is the Ice Dragon, the child of ice and fire, the balancer etc etc.I've been guilty of (2) myself, but never quite comfortable with it and now thinking of the ladies...We have an undoubted Targaryen bastard in the form of Bloodraven, but in his case as we've discussed, the Targaryen connection doesn't seem significant at all. In his younger days he was Bryden Rivers and apparently a Targaryen loyalist of the first water, but latterly if not in fact before its his mother's blood and influence which has won out. Its Bryn Blackwood who is with the Children and the Old Gods, not Bryden Targaryen.Might this also be the case with Jon? Notwithstanding his father (probably) being Rhaegar Targaryen, is it Jon Stark we're going to see embracing the legacy of the Winterfell crypts?ETA: edited to get rid of automatic emoticonsIf we apply real life genetics, these skip a generation, Ned's mother would be more intersting. Assuming the skinchanging was boosted by her genes, it leaves a door for R+L=J since Brandon, Ned, Lyanna and Benjen have the same gene pool. It is a better explanation for Jon having the same abilities as Bran and Arya.Where did Lady Stark come from? Mayhaps a pale woman from North of the Wall? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stark@heart Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 Ok - I can't help it. No, this is not the 500th edition of R+L=J Which I believe but Rhaegar was never crowned. He died a Prince and his father died a King - therefore Dany is the true heir to the Iron Throne. The End! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eyron Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 If Rhaegar had no living trueborn children when he died yes, Dany would be heir. And it's possibly so. Any living trueborn son would come before her in succession, and even a bastard if the king legitimizes him./derailment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted August 9, 2012 Author Share Posted August 9, 2012 Wars of succession have been fought over less, but I still hold that its the identity of Jon's mother rather than his father which is going to determine his destiny, and that this is underlined by his dreams of being drawn to the crypts to embrace his Stark heritage - and destiny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 Ok - I can't help it. No, this is not the 500th edition of R+L=J Which I believe but Rhaegar was never crowned. He died a Prince and his father died a King - therefore Dany is the true heir to the Iron Throne. The End!Get that weaksauce out of here :box: (I'm kidding of course) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stark@heart Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 I think your probably right. Everyone's been so caught up playing "whose the daddy" we overlook Lyanna's part. I agree, whatever lays ahead for Jon - he will face it as a Stark( would) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eyron Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 Wars of succession have been fought over less, but I still hold that its the identity of Jon's mother rather than his father which is going to determine his destiny, and that this is underlined by his dreams of being drawn to the crypts to embrace his Stark heritage - and destiny.Yes I think so too, sense of identity comes primarily from nurture, not nature. Identities can change, but I see no reason for this to happen with Jon really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stark@heart Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 BTWThe death of Rheagar's children is known the world over so Dany is still the rightful heir. The End / I swear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon rr stark Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 I've always felt it was the life force of Craster's sons that's being used to feed/ power the Others. As for the sheep - As we saw, Craster just leaves his offering so who knows if they even bother collecting the sheep. They could be taken by animals and Craster wouldn't know. If babies/sons are so important or needed then it sounds like blood magic and if it is then sheeps blood seems to me a poor substitute to work the magic they need - they could just eat them. :stillsick:The Others being dependant on Starks, Crasters and others like them to supply them with a baby so they can live / have power or reproduce doesn't seem right to me.whatshername Casters daughter said they are out there casters sons so no-one should stray out into the night. Thereby indicating that casters sons in effect were the WW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stark@heart Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 But what do they really know?They know Craster takes baby boys and lays them somewhere in the woods close by. And they are babies. Even if they grew to be men, how could they be recognized as someones so if they haven't been seen since the moment of birth? They don't drop by for holidays and say hi? They don't bring their report cards to show how good their doing in "school"? There's is no way that one of Crasters wives could know for certain that was her "son" out there unless she is talking about his soul/spirit/lifeforce.That's the only way I can see for the Others to be considered Crasters' sons - is that they have the spirit / lifeforce of Craster's sons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon rr stark Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 Jon is a stark no matter who his parents are. Ned brought him up in his image, so whatever transpires he will deal with it with the stark mentality and as a northerner and first man. His identity and future decisions will be determined by that dream in the crypts. Weather that means he will actually go into the crypts and find something or are just symbolic of something to be revealed connected with the starks and winterfell. But because of the prominence of the crypts there is something ancient in the Stark past which has great significance. We have postulated about the Stark - Other connection. I'm thinking that there is a more likely Stark - CotF connection.The first men and the CotF were allied/on friendly terms for four thousand years before the others appeared. We know the CotF can skinchange and greensee and have human form. We know they had attempted to draw their line of first men advance at moat cailin so the lands beyond this would be where the major concentration of CotF are. This is also where the Starks latterly hold sway. So it is more logical to assume a relationship between Stark ancestors and CofF could occur in this area during a long time of friendship.There is nothing we can see which referes to previous Starks having wraging or greensight ability. So this current lot of Stark children are a throwback to an earlier time perhaps prompted by the return of magic. The only other place where we see wraging/skinchanging is amoung the wildlings who currently live in close proximity to the CotF and therefore have greater chance of contact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon rr stark Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 But what do they really know?They know Craster takes baby boys and lays them somewhere in the woods close by.And they are babies. Even if they grew to be men, how could they be recognized as someones so if they haven't been seen since the moment of birth? They don't drop by for holidays and say hi? They don't bring their report cards to show how good their doing in "school"? There's is no way that one of Crasters wives could know for certain that was her "son" out there unless she is talking about his soul/spirit/lifeforce.That's the only way I can see for the Others to be considered Crasters' sons - is that they have the spirit / lifeforce of Craster's sons.Yes it could be that its their spirt or whatever is used to create a WW in some form. But since the wives daughters are there and living with what happens they must have some idea of why he leaves them for the WW. Indeed how did Caster know to leave them out in the first place. There would be tales in wildling culture about such scarifice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bear Claw Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 On history of warging among Starks- I don't remember who said this or what forum it came from, but Roose Bolton makes a comment about Lyanna being half horse herself. This might show previous warging in other Starks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spoony Bard Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 Wars of succession have been fought over less, but I still hold that its the identity of Jon's mother rather than his father which is going to determine his destiny, and that this is underlined by his dreams of being drawn to the crypts to embrace his Stark heritage - and destiny.I don't think anyone disputes that Jon is a Stark in nature. A lot of that has to do with his mother, but it also has to do with the fact that he was raised by Ned. Jon thinks of himself as a Stark, well a bastard of a Stark. Lyanna is important, but so is Ned. Theon, after all, has no Stark blood, but having been raised by Ned, clearly wants to be a Stark and behaves accordingly, in his own demented way.For Jon, Lyanna is important in creating his identity, although he doesn't know it. That doesn't mean as a rule, the mother dominates genetic inheritance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harland Flint Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 Spinning off the business of Catelyn Tully, we have discussed before how the female side seems to be more important than the male for passing things on and that gives me pause to wonder whether the question of Jon's real parentage or rather his father might not be a red herring....We have an undoubted Targaryen bastard in the form of Bloodraven, but in his case as we've discussed, the Targaryen connection doesn't seem significant at all. In his younger days he was Bryden Rivers and apparently a Targaryen loyalist of the first water, but latterly if not in fact before its his mother's blood and influence which has won out. Its Bryn Blackwood who is with the Children and the Old Gods, not Bryden Targaryen.Might this also be the case with Jon? Notwithstanding his father (probably) being Rhaegar Targaryen, is it Jon Stark we're going to see embracing the legacy of the Winterfell crypts?What would that theme mean for the rest of the Stark kids? If Jon got all the 'Northernliness' from Lyanna, then Robb, Sansa, Arya, Bran & Rickon all have/had 'Riverlandliness' from Cat.So much for Rickon becoming the Stark in Winterfell, although it could suggest Sansa will stay in the Riverlands Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stark@heart Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 Just one of the many things the Starks don't seem to remember but other people do.Have the Maesters of the Citadel really done that good a job in separating the Starks from their past. Obscuring even the most, it seems, important details about their past in regards to the Long Night / Last Hero / Bran the Builder/ TCOTF / Others?It is because a Stark was the Night King that the Citadel has taken from them the knowledge of their past / heritage? Or "sigh" because they are related to the " Bad Guys" from the North? :frown5: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludd Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 Been reading these threads for a while and have so much to say. Often think you are way off track. Probably NOT all related to this thread but I will post anyway1. The night watch is I think a protection and also a offering to the gods. The idea is given to us by the Pentos story and the guy who chose NOT to be a potential sacrifice. i suspect that the origin of the night watch is that every lord of the north was required to send 1/3 of his sons to the wall (as per the 1/3 of issue irish gaels sacrificed to Cromm Craddich). In hard times these sons must die for the realm. Hence the reason that desertion is death and the storrry of the Ryswell dad who sent his son back to the wall. Possibly they may be sacrificed to the weirwoods hence the 72 deserters form a sort of weir wood foundation to the wall.Benjen is a third son. So too (possibly) is Bran.However the exprectation is that it is HEALTHY sons therefore the practice of the Andals of sending their crimials to the wall is a breach of the trust/contract Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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