Heresy 20

[7V3N]

Cheers! We were going to have a string trio play the HBO adaptation of "Reynes of Castamere" (I just told my fiance it's a wedding song) but eventually balked at the ominousness.

Just don't eat the pies! Manderly is tricking you!

I don't think the colour of eyes in Martin world follows science. The albinos have bright red eyes for example which I have not heard of in real world. Albinos have more lilac coloured eyes as far as I know.

Meera has green eyes. So unless Howland is both Meera's and Jon's father I don't see it as very possible that Jon and Meera are twins.

I have two albino friends. One has bright red eyes, the other dark, crimson eyes.

RE the Riverlands blood: Perhaps Riverlands is greensight and the North is skinchanging. Jojen cannot warg, but has powerful greensight. Arya (more Stark than Tully) has strong (though untamed) skinchanging abilities, but not greensight. Bran (more Tully than Stark) has powerful greensight, as well as skinchanging that is likely connected with him being crippled. Jon could have very well gotten his abilities from his (R+L=J) dragon blood.

RE AA: I am going to start a search during my current reread for the possibility that AA is a man who sailed to Westeros from Asshai, was shipwrecked near the Iron Islands, revived through CPR or the fire kiss (creating their religion), then continued into Westeros where he became a part of the fight against the Others (forming the Red Church).

[Lummel]

I'm glad Free Northman brought up the quote from GRRM about the Others. It really does suggest that the Others are an enemy of humanity, especially when read in conjunction with Old Nan's tale...

The problem with that is that we don't know why they are fighting. Enemy of humanity is in my opinion a cop out answer - 'they just are enemies to humanity that's why they are fighting!'. But the reason why they are fighting will presumably contain the solution to the conflict. Naturally if you are in they are enemies because they are enemies school then the only possible resolution is a big battle in which one side is exterminated, but that doesn't fit with what we are seeing which is that fire is just as destructive and dangerous to humanity as ice seeing as both ultimately require/offer eternal servitude.

[The Spoony Bard]

The problem with that is that we don't know why they are fighting. Enemy of humanity is in my opinion a cop out answer - 'they just are enemies to humanity that's why they are fighting!'. But the reason why they are fighting will presumably contain the solution to the conflict. Naturally if you are in they are enemies because they are enemies school then the only possible resolution is a big battle in which one side is exterminated, but that doesn't fit with what we are seeing which is that fire is just as destructive and dangerous to humanity as ice seeing as both ultimately require/offer eternal servitude.

I never stated in my post that Ice has to defeat Fire or vice versa. Nor did I state that one is better than the other. In fact I stated just the opposite. "The twist to ASOIAF is that Dany and her dragons aren't the saviors of humanity, but an enemy of humanity just like the Others. Endless summer is just as bad as endless winter." Maybe the balance will be achieved by a big battle between Ice and Fire at the Trident. Or maybe Bran/Bloodraven/Jon/CoTF will negotiate some sort of lasting truce restoring balance.

My comment about Martin's statement is meant to address the idea that the Others are allies to a set of humanity, which is an idea that has life on these threads.

[Lummel]

Sorry Spoony Bard. Perhaps then I might take issue with humanity as though even in Martinworld it is a single block. Since we know there are human and semi-human (potentially) fire supporters, the same could be true of ice? There's a difference to my mind to the white walkers wanting to kill all humans full stop just because and the white walkers wanting to drive all humans off and out of westeros because it was originally theirs.

But if fire and ice have a big old battle somewhere the only possible outcomes are one side wins and the other looses in either case dooming humanity to servitude or by some freak it's a dead draw and the two are perpetually locked together in some kind of Zoroastrian struggle.

On the otherhand if there is a negotiated settlement then there has to be some kind of reason for the enmity through the resolution of which the wise of both races can find some grounds for agreement. :dunno:

[Black Wolf Smith]

If we apply real life genetics, these skip a generation, Ned's mother would be more intersting. Assuming the skinchanging was boosted by her genes, it leaves a door for R+L=J since Brandon, Ned, Lyanna and Benjen have the same gene pool. It is a better explanation for Jon having the same abilities as Bran and Arya.

Where did Lady Stark come from? Mayhaps a pale woman from North of the Wall?

Well I have a crack pot theory on Ned's Grandmother (paternal) being one of eggs sisters, but I don't know if this is the right thread to put it on.

[Efilnikufesin]

Well I have a crack pot theory on Ned's Grandmother (paternal) being one of eggs sisters, but I don't know if this is the right thread to put it on.

I have thinking the opposite lately. Seems that neither the Stark's nor Tully's have married into the Targ family. Nor the Lannister's for that matter, though they tried to. All the other major houses have married into the Royal family.

[Free Northman]

It is the ''us'' in Martin's comment:"They (the Others), don't like us much,'' that clinches it for me.

They are the enemies of all mankind, and you can't get humans who are allied with them who are not ''evil'' in the sense that they are the enemies of the rest of mankind then.

[The Spoony Bard]

Sorry Spoony Bard. Perhaps then I might take issue with humanity as though even in Martinworld it is a single block. Since we know there are human and semi-human (potentially) fire supporters, the same could be true of ice? There's a difference to my mind to the white walkers wanting to kill all humans full stop just because and the white walkers wanting to drive all humans off and out of westeros because it was originally theirs.

But if fire and ice have a big old battle somewhere the only possible outcomes are one side wins and the other looses in either case dooming humanity to servitude or by some freak it's a dead draw and the two are perpetually locked together in some kind of Zoroastrian struggle.

On the otherhand if there is a negotiated settlement then there has to be some kind of reason for the enmity through the resolution of which the wise of both races can find some grounds for agreement. :dunno:

Martin's use of the word "us" would suggest a single block. Additionally, Old Nan's story shows that the winter kills all. So whatever the motivation, humans and the Others cannot co-exist.

There doesn't have to be a winner and a loser. They both could lose sufficient strength to allow balance to restored. Right now the seasons flucuate between long summers (fire) and long winters (ice), with short autumns and springs. If both are reduced, the season could become normal again.

I'm also against the idea of a negotiated settlement because that does nothing to solve the magically imbalanced seasons.

[Lummel]

they don't like us much doesn't equal enemies to my mind. Enmity suggests stronger feeling being involved than not liking much, but the distinction might be down to translation.

However apparently white walkers and humans have to some degree co-existed for what ever period of time has elapsed since the last hero and the present of the story.

[Free Northman]

Sorry Spoony Bard. Perhaps then I might take issue with humanity as though even in Martinworld it is a single block. Since we know there are human and semi-human (potentially) fire supporters, the same could be true of ice? There's a difference to my mind to the white walkers wanting to kill all humans full stop just because and the white walkers wanting to drive all humans off and out of westeros because it was originally theirs.

But if fire and ice have a big old battle somewhere the only possible outcomes are one side wins and the other looses in either case dooming humanity to servitude or by some freak it's a dead draw and the two are perpetually locked together in some kind of Zoroastrian struggle.

On the otherhand if there is a negotiated settlement then there has to be some kind of reason for the enmity through the resolution of which the wise of both races can find some grounds for agreement. :dunno:

The Others are not only the enemy of humanity, but of all living things that require non-Arctic conditions to survive.

Hence, they are the enemies of nature, which is why the Children have to oppose them too.

[Free Northman]

they don't like us much doesn't equal enemies to my mind. Enmity suggests stronger feeling being involved than not liking much, but the distinction might be down to translation.

However apparently white walkers and humans have to some degree co-existed for what ever period of time has elapsed since the last hero and the present of the story.

Think of them as a species that thrives during Ice Ages. Their goal is to terraform the planet into a perpetual Ice Age. That will allow them to expand their territory to include the entire earth.

Since humans oppose their goals - as it is mutually exclusive with our survival - it follows that they are the enemy.

Simple as that.

[Free Northman]

You could even give them some nice motivation by saying that they are the original inhabitants of this planet, and that the entire world was once a snowball earth.

Then, when the Ice Age ended, humans and other warm blooded creatures evolved, and the Others' once world spanning civilization was confined to the two Poles. Now they want to reunite with their long lost kin on the South Pole, but they are unable to endure the warm conditions that seperate the two Poles.

Thus they are forever seperated from their kin in the Far South, and this longing drives them to try and change the entire planet into Arctic conditions once again, to regain what they once lost.

So now they have a legitimate motivation, a history, even a semi-romanticized goal.

All of which doesn't change in the slightest the fact that it is still either them or us, because neither species can survive in the other's habitat.

[Lummel]

Plainly the white walkers are some kind of ultra low temperature creature, however since GRRM has also described them as not having a culture I'm not keen to jump to a conclusion based on their wanting something as a species, they could easily be something along the lines of a guard dog. guard dogs tend not to like us much either.

Just because they like very low temperature does not provide them with a reason to transform the whole plant. They don't seem to have been all that numerous in the past (they lead armies of the slain - they don't constitute armies) and they don't seem all that numerous now, we've only seen a hand full of them so far.

Quite what they are and what they might want seems to my mind to be obscure, but then we've got two books of the series to go. I doubt if all GRRM's secrets will be revealed in the next volume either.

[Lykos]

The Others are not only the enemy of humanity, but of all living things that require non-Arctic conditions to survive.

Hence, they are the enemies of nature, which is why the Children have to oppose them too.

The Others are part of nature, have you ever considered that working for a long summer results in a long and hard winter afterwards. An endless summer would mean death to most living things as well. And there is no proof that the Children were opposed to the Others in contrast to them being definitely opposed to men before the pact. There is only a tiny hint, by Bran saying so, that the Children helped the Last Hero after a long desperate search.

Think of them as a species that thrives during Ice Ages. Their goal is to terraform the planet into a perpetual Ice Age. That will allow them to expand their territory to include the entire earth.

Since humans oppose their goals - as it is mutually exclusive with our survival - it follows that they are the enemy.

Simple as that.

It´s only simple when you choose to read it that way. I think that the Others mostly want to be left alone, it´s the humans that have goals which probably interfere with the Others existance.

You could even give them some nice motivation by saying that they are the original inhabitants of this planet, and that the entire world was once a snowball earth.

Then, when the Ice Age ended, humans and other warm blooded creatures evolved, and the Others' once world spanning civilization was confined to the two Poles. Now they want to reunite with their long lost kin on the South Pole, but they are unable to endure the warm conditions that seperate the two Poles.

Thus they are forever seperated from their kin in the Far South, and this longing drives them to try and change the entire planet into Arctic conditions once again, to regain what they once lost.

So now they have a legitimate motivation, a history, even a semi-romanticized goal.

All of which doesn't change in the slightest the fact that it is still either them or us, because neither species can survive in the other's habitat.

Now you´re proposing a scenario that is even for most heretics a wild speculation, though I´d find it interesting if you´d followed that thought and tried to look if it could hold in the light of what the story tells us, but you´re clearly not willing to do so.

You like it simple as it´s either them or us. In real life that usually leads to neither in the end, cooperation is the way to success. Though that´s hard to achieve the First Men´s and the Children´s wise came to some kind of agreement we are told.

Look I think that the Others are connected to death, but that doesn´t make them evil, death is a part of nature.

When some humans try to achieve immortality however it might work for a few for some time but humans will have to pay the price in the end.

[Black Crow]

Comes back as ever to the old question as to whether they come with the cold or bring the cold which was first posed way back in the Ice Dragon. Given the evidence for the White Walkers turning up fairly regularly north of the Wall its reasonable to interpret it not as they've been sleeping under ice for the last 8,000 years or however long ago it really was, but rather that they turn up every long Winter whenever its cold enough. This one's different in that there are indications its going to be a bad one, and more importantly they are raising wights, which normally they don't bother doing.

Whether you buy into the Sidhe connection or not - and I still hold its the best explanation so far - GRRM has clearly indicated a connection between the Children and the Others which will be explored in due course. While he declined to say more, that would be far more consistent with what we've been discussing about the two representing different faces of the same natural cycle of death and renewal, rather than writing the White lot off as the ultimate enemy.

As Lykos has just said, popular belief amongst readrers notwithstanding there is no textual evidence anywhere in the books of conflict between the Children and the Others, far less the Children and First Men fighting side by side against them. The Last Hero might indeed have been saved by them, but in the absence of an army of killer pygmies I'm still very firmly of the opinion that this was done by way of guest right - which GRRM has told us is an Old Gods thing.

[Eyron]

One thing that confuses me in these threads are where the emphasis on anthropomorphizing Ice and Fire comes from. Could anyone explain this?

I'm not sure I understand your question exactly, but do you mean that we connect ice and fire to human groups in the story?

If that is your meaning, for fire we have the Targaryens and the red priests, for ice we have no other than perhaps the Starks or the Boltons, which is not definite of course but we are toying with the idea. That is not to say we are all thinking that the Starks will fight with the Others this time, but perhaps that they are more closely connected to the Others historically than other people.

The antropomorphizing done by GRRM would to me be that the Others are humanoid like beings made of ice and we have Mel and Moqorro (who seem to be humans but at the same time they are not quite human anymore) on the fire squad, as well as dragons, though admittedly the dragons are not human. There are perhaps fire demons in Valyria and Hardhome that are more like an equivalent to the Others than the transformed red priests, but we have only heard rumours about those so it's not certain they exist.

[Lummel]

only the last hero story suggests that the children may have assisted a man against the white walkers and exactly what that help was is entirely unclear because the story gets cut off by the arrival of visitors.

I thought the tribute of obsidian and the use of ravens was the result of peaceful relations between the children and men after their war. There's no suggestion so far that those things happened or were offered as a means of support against the white walkers.

[Lummel]

obsidian is what the children use because they are a stone age culture and don't work metal. They used obsidian weapons to fight the first men too.

[nanother]

People keep saying that eternal summer is just as bad as eternal winter. I don't know where that notion comes from, but imo it's non-sense.

We don't know what that summer would be like, but unless it's eternal sunshine with never a drop of rain, it should at least allow for life to exist, whereas freezing temperatures don't. It's possibly not the best of all possible things that could happen, or it might come at a price too high, or both, but there's nothing to indicate that it'd be the end of all life.

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

Think of them as a species that thrives during Ice Ages. Their goal is to terraform the planet into a perpetual Ice Age. That will allow them to expand their territory to include the entire earth.

Since humans oppose their goals - as it is mutually exclusive with our survival - it follows that they are the enemy.

Simple as that.

Algore would like them.

In all seriousness, though... I was thinking of something the other day, when I was reading another novel... there was a scene with a tremendous amount of blood & gore... and there was a line that went something like, "... the amount of fresh blood and gore left a faint smell of iron..."

That triggered the thought that maybe that has something to do with why the WW hate humans & warm blooded creatures... the iron in their blood. I wanted to type this post up in the last thread but I couldn't find the citation where we're told the Others hate iron & fire, so I set it aside.... but I see the quote was from old Nan, as evidenced on page 7,

Maybe this has something to do with the iron blades on the tombs as well... some special elemental properties that affect WW?