Third World King Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 The Great Council, passing over females. The Dance of Dragons, once in a Jaime chapter in KL, then from Stannis, calling Rhaenyra a traitor despite being daughter, sister and mother to lawful kngs.The dance of the dragons never proved that male cousins come before the king's daughter. It only proved that law meant nothing when it came to the Iron Throne, since by law, Rhaenyra was the "rightful" Queen of Westeros. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasha Steelsong Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Wrong.A woman can sit on the throne. If Tommen were to die, Myrcella would be next in line.Myrcella and Tommen are inheriting under the Barratheon scheme of things, which seems to follow the way the vast majority of Westeros did things, i.e. the sons inherit and then the daughters assuming the sons have no heirs. The Targaryens were the only family to ever exclude direct daughters from succession and follow a purely male order. So what Tommen and Myrcella have available doesn't actually address whether a targaryen woman could sit the throne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dtones520 Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Stannis is the lawful king by all the laws of westeros. Nothing except him dying can change that.He actually isn't the lawful king as the crown is on Tommen's head and that the Faith has given him their blessing as head of the Faith. Which, even though we know differently, means Stannis is still a Usurper by Westerosi law. As are Aegon and Dany, when she arrives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Third World King Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Depends which House sits it. House Targaryen => Targaryen law. House Baratheon => Andal law.Wait a minute..I thought that passing over females was an Andal law, and not Targaryen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 He actually isn't the lawful king as the crown is on Tommen's head and that the Faith has given him their blessing as head of the Faith. Which, even though we know differently, means Stannis is still a Usurper by Westerosi law. As are Aegon and Dany, when she arrives.But the Faiths voice is only one in many. The Lords Paramount are vastly more important, and with the Lords Paramount of the North, the Riverlands, the Stormlands and the Iron Isles in open rebellion while the Lords Paramount of the Vale and Dorne sit on the sidelines... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Lepus Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Wait a minute..I thought that passing over females was an Andal law, and not Targaryen?The Andal Law says that sons come before daughters.The Targayren Law says that sons, cousins, nephews, uncles,...etc., all come before daughters.The only doubt is, would a non-Targayren male relative come before a Targayren female?. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Summerqueen Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Could / would / shouldWould Dany actually ask permission first? "please, sers, can I sit on this ironjunk?" I'm thinking not. She'll just do it, and those she conquers will just put up with it.The system is largely based on precedent, but precedents can obviously be made. The question is moot. Could Targ women sit the throne in the past? In theory, before it was prohibited, they could have done. And then they couldn't. And now? It's more a question of will they than may they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Wait a minute..I thought that passing over females was an Andal law, and not Targaryen?Both pass over females. Andal law puts them behind their brothers, but before uncles. Targaryen law puts them last, behind any male relatives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter's Knight Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Wait a minute..I thought that passing over females was an Andal law, and not Targaryen?Andal women can and do inherit-the Red Spider in D&E II, Dacey Mormont and Cat Tully for instance. The last was raised to inherit Riverrun until Edmure was born. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasha Steelsong Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Wait a minute..I thought that passing over females was an Andal law, and not Targaryen?No the passing over of female is a Targaryen only thing. The rest of the Westeros allowed daughters to inherit if there were no sons, except Dorne and at times the Iron Islands. However as Dany basically is House Targaryen at the moment, I still say that the succession will be what she decides it to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Could / would / shouldWould Dany actually ask permission first? "please, sers, can I sit on this ironjunk?" I'm thinking not. She'll just do it, and those she conquers will just put up with it.The system is largely based on precedent, but precedents can obviously be made. The question is moot. Could Targ women sit the throne in the past? In theory, before it was prohibited, they could have done. And then they couldn't. And now? It's more a question of will they than may they?Of course. But some may use these old precedents for rebellion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Third World King Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Myrcella and Tommen are inheriting under the Barratheon scheme of things, which seems to follow the way the vast majority of Westeros did things, i.e. the sons inherit and then the daughters assuming the sons have no heirs. The Targaryens were the only family to ever exclude direct daughters from succession and follow a purely male order. So what Tommen and Myrcella have available doesn't actually address whether a targaryen woman could sit the throne.No. The Targaryens never did that. Cole did that. Viserys I had named his daughter, Rhaenyra the lawful Queen of Westeros, only for Cole to betray her by crowning her half-brother, Aegon II. Thus starting the dance of the dragons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-Ro Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 He actually isn't the lawful king as the crown is on Tommen's head and that the Faith has given him their blessing as head of the Faith. Which, even though we know differently, means Stannis is still a Usurper by Westerosi law. As are Aegon and Dany, when she arrives.No, this is incorrect tommen is a bastard. If people knew this he would not be on the throne, people not knowing tommen is a bastard does not change the fact that stannis is the rightful king. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-Ro Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 No. The Targaryens never did that.Yes, they did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 No. The Targaryens never did that. Cole did that. Viserys I had named his daughter, Rhaenyra the lawful Queen of Westeros, only for Cole to betray her by crowning her half-brother, Aegon II. Thus starting the dance of the dragons.And winning. Therefore he is right and the law stayed as he interpreted it till Bob rose to the crown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kittykatknits Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Andal women can and do inherit-the Red Spider in D&E II, Dacey Mormont and Cat Tully for instance. The last was raised to inherit Riverrun until Edmure was born.Agree on all of the above. We also saw the situation with Alys Karstark, she was heir if her brother died, the situation in Darry, and the fact that Cersei is currently the Lady of CR. In Dorne, the eldest inherits regardless of gender.No, this is incorrect tommen is a bastard. If people knew this he would not be on the throne, people not knowing tommen is a bastard does not change the fact that stannis is the rightful king.There is quite a bit of evidence that Tommen's status as a bastard is well known actually. It's mentioned by several characters over the series. But, it serves the interests of many to support his reign regardless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasha Steelsong Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 No. The Targaryens never did that. Cole did that. Viserys I had named his daughter, Rhaenyra the lawful Queen of Westeros, only for Cole to betray her by crowning her half-brother, Aegon II. Thus starting the dance of the dragons.And from that point on.."The Targaryens were the only family to ever exclude direct daughters from succession and follow a purely male order" like I said. In fact regardless of the fact that they came to it after the conquest, they are still the only family that we know of to ever employ that inheritance practice even if it wasn't for the whole time they were in power...so "The Targaryens were the only family to ever exclude direct daughters from succession and follow a purely male order" holds true regardless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7V3N Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 I dont understand, whats your point? Is the wiki wrong? LOL your argument is so weak.The wiki is incredibly unreliable. It takes a lot of hints and goes a bit too far. Like I would not have been surprised if it used to say the assassin for Bran was sent by Jaime and Cersei, or if it said "... where Jon found Benjen Stark's black cloak." It just assumes things.And it seems to me you are being very confrontational with people. You turn talks of ASOIAF and make it personal. I understand some times things can put us in a bad mood and it therefore affects our reactions to people online as well. Perhaps you might want to spend some time relaxing and away from people for some time, clear your head, and rejoin the conversation at that point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-Ro Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Could / would / shouldWould Dany actually ask permission first? "please, sers, can I sit on this ironjunk?" I'm thinking not. She'll just do it, and those she conquers will just put up with it.The system is largely based on precedent, but precedents can obviously be made. The question is moot. Could Targ women sit the throne in the past? In theory, before it was prohibited, they could have done. And then they couldn't. And now? It's more a question of will they than may they?No way. Seriously? The question in the op was can a woman sit the throne, all the debate has centered around the fact that this has never happened before. Obviously if dany has overwhelming force she would take the throne, but thats not the point, anyone with overwelming force could take the throne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Third World King Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 The Andal Law says that sons come before daughters.The Targayren Law says that sons, cousins, nephews, uncles,...etc., all come before daughters.The only doubt is, would a non-Targayren male relative come before a Targayren female?.Both pass over females. Andal law puts them behind their brothers, but before uncles. Targaryen law puts them last, behind any male relatives.Andal women can and do inherit-the Red Spider in D&E II, Dacey Mormont and Cat Tully for instance. The last was raised to inherit Riverrun until Edmure was born.No the passing over of female is a Targaryen only thing. The rest of the Westeros allowed daughters to inherit if there were no sons, except Dorne and at times the Iron Islands. However as Dany basically is House Targaryen at the moment, I still say that the succession will be what she decides it to be.Understood.Hypothetically speaking, if Jon Snow was the bastard of Rhaegar, can he inherit the Throne before Daenerys? According to the Targaryen law, that is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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