Mance

[Buckwheat]

Mance is one of my favourite side characters. I cried when I thought he dies, which did not happen at any other time while reading ASOIAF. He is the best king and should rule the Seven Kingdoms over all these pretenders. Nobody better suited for the task.

Chose a bunch of prozzies from Mole Town to assist him on said mission.

Actually they were spearwives from the north of the Wall, which is much cooler even.

Mance is a brilliant character. I hope we never have a POV to wreck the image ;)

:agree:

Brothers, oh, brothers, my days here are done ...

[Cat of the Canal Girl]

Well, Jon tricked Mance so he is cooler and Stannis won him in battle so he is cooler too...

1 Jon&Stannis

2 Mance

You seem to be confusing Mance vs Stannis with Dragonstone vs Wildings....

[Jon's Queen Consort]

You seem to be confusing Mance vs Stannis with Dragonstone vs Wildings....

I don't think so... I love both Stannis and Mance. I just pointed why I think that Mance isn't as cool as Stannis.

[Bayard]

http://imageshack.us.../834/mance.jpg/

Says it all really, Mance is the ultimate badass.

Wow, just look at the girl in the background, she looks exactly like the actress they chose for Val :). Although, that may be her sister in the picture :)

[Buckwheat]

I don't think so... I love both Stannis and Mance. I just pointed why I think that Mance isn't as cool as Stannis.

Blasphemy! Stannis does not reach Mance's coolness by far.

If Stannis won in the battle, that was by no means Mance's guilt. His host scattered, and Stannis attacked them from behind. Just confess, Stannis needs a lute, a voice to be able to sing, manners and some general allround coolness course if he ever wants to compete with Mance. He will never took over him, though.

[Toccs]

On the subject of Stannis vs Mance, let's not forget that Stannis is still under the belief that he has burned Mance for being a deserter. Now while Stannis is enduring a hard trek through a blizzard trying to reach Winterfell, Mance has already been inside for weeks hanging out in the Great Hall.

[Definitely Mayhaps]

I loved his introduction in Storm.

Surrounded by such ferocious men such as Tormund and Varamyr, he's practically a pleasant bard in charge of tens of thousands of men and women that have had to put up with un-relenting cold for years and are as hard as the land itself.

Best minor character in the series. And, from where he left us at Dance's finale, I don't think he'll be remaining minor for very long at all.

[Shaggy]

Let's not forget that he not only united a 100 different wildling tribes, but he did it with the lowest birth possible and the wildling hatred/stigma against "crows".

Not just wildling tribes, Mance made Giants flock to his cause, now THAT is awesome!

All hail to Mance of the House Rayder, the First of his Name, King of the Free Folk, Andals, Rhoynar, First Men, Giants and Children of the Forest, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms and Protector of the Realm! :)

[Toccs]

Not just wildling tribes, Mance made Giants flock to his cause, now THAT is awesome!

Exactly.

We know Mance had to personally kick the ass of every Wildling chieftan who swore allegiance to him, (Styr 3 times). So the question is, did Mance have to kick Mag the Mighty's ass before the giants joined his cause? The reason that nobody can answer that question with a convincing "no" is because Mance is so awesome that even if he didn't do it, we all know he totally could.

[By the Old Gods Not theNew]

Mance is far more awesome.

Mance,

Arguments For:

His Host: Mance united all of the Free Folk, except for the one asshole in league w/ the others. He kicked a few asses, sang some songs, told some jokes and bam he had the largest host in all of Westeros. A host that allowed women to fight. Women like Fryena who can over power men take their spears kill them and then hold half a dozen more. A host that included multiple skinchangers. A host that included Giants. A host that subordinated people like the Weeper to the greater good of just cause (something Jon can only aspire to achieve). A host that even though it's been broken still remains deeply loyal to him w/ numerous individuals willing to risk life and limb to rescue him.

Killer of White Walkers: Jon's killed one, a fact that garners him a deal of respect from his fellow crows. Mance has killed hundreds.

His Priestess: Dalla the wise woman Mance rolls w/ actually understands sorcery and offers exceptional council.

His Character: He loves arts and cultures, he has strong desire for freedom, respects women, as well as racial and cultural differences.

His Skills: He can pass as a singer, seems a decent storyteller, he's persuasive, the halfhand even recognized Mance as his better in terms of ranging, and he's a capable raider, he's skilled in single combat and as a field commander.

Direct Contact w/ Stannis: The battle between Mance and Stannis may have been won by Stannis. However it was unnecessary, it came at a huge cost and he essential lost the war insofar as Mance's end goal was largely accomplished - the wildlings are being let through the Wall.

First Stannis' took Mance by surprise, while Mance was negotiating very fair terms w/ Jon (yield now or in three days time your wall crumbles or we kick your ass), which is incredibly underhanded and dishonorable. sneaking up on people armed mostly w/ rudimentary weapons, during negotiations, w/ mounted knights is not really a great demonstration of skilled command. It demonstrates once again that Stannis is treacherous.

Second it was a battle not a war, and though Stannis, using guile, was able to brake Mance's host on the walls, the surviving wildlings still managed to either re-group and "threaten" the realm, or they've been let through the Wall which was the whole point. Therefore Stannis needlessly killed a lot people to try and force them to yield to him, something he could have achieved w/out any casualties if he were only half a smart as someone like Roose or Jon who both understand power when sweetened w/ a bit of courtesy goes a lot farther than commanding people to kneel unconditionally based on some BS laws of heredity.

Third Stannis inspires little loyalty and his policy of crushing the wildlings into submission via force and humiliation (burning people alive, penning them up in cages, burning their wierwoods) has earned him lasting animosity of those he defeated, compared to Mance who kicked Styr ass three times but won his respect and loyalty. Stannis could of had the wildlings the same way he got the Mountain Clans by showing a little eff-ing respect, and 100,000 wildlings Giants, Legendary Raiders, Hornfootmen, Thenns, but no he had to make them bend to him and his wierwood burning religion (that he doesn't really even believe in).

Arguments Against:

None. That's right none. There is nothing that can be dug up to show that mance is anything other than awesome.

Stannis,

Arguments For:

Honestly I'm not even going to try. I don't get what people see in him. I think the only arguments I've seen in his defense is that since going North he's shown he's a changed man, and the only King that cares about the Realm and his duty as King, beyond that he's a good battle commander. some people think he's just. I think he's an ass, who is more than willing to break rules to achieve his own ends w/ zero accountability, yet he holds everyone else to an impossible standard of behavior he regularly violates himself.

Arguments against:

His Host: a few religious fanatics, some Landless Lords with no other options, and some truly devoted and loyal men willing to do what ever is asked of them. other than that no-one likes him. The Storm Lords didn't rally to his cause, and now the North has refused him. So his host is not rally even an argument for him.

Killer of White Walkers: nope. he needlessly killed a lot wildlings skilled at killing WW, knowing full well they weren't the real threat. he claims to be protecting the Realm but in reality he has put the Realm in greater peril by needlessly killing wildlings, and scattering them across the lands beyond the Wall leaving them as fodder for the Others. All in his completely failed and self-interested bid to win the North to his cause. good job stannis.

His Priestess: She's a terrible prophet. She offers terrible council and overestimates her powers to wield sorcery. It seems pretty clear that the majority of skills are simply based on the manipulation of others expectations, it's a lot of cast shadows. She has no respect for other cultures/religions and alienates tons of Stannis' potential allies. She also seems to conceal things from Stannis (patch-face's potential for treachery, Mance).

His Character: Stern (tooth grinder), hypocritical (He took Davos' fingers but has let his priestess create shadow demons w/out any repercussions, and he continually pressures Jon to forsake his vows, and used treachery to smash Mance's host, he also killed his brother and there's that whole kinslayer taboo) petulant (the throne is mine! bend your knee! it's mine!), deeply prejudiced (he's really sexist, seems to have deeply southern sensibilities which come off as more prejudiced than those in the North and in Dorne).

His Skills: He's said to be a great military tactician and commander. I disagree. He has used treachery and the mistakes of others in essentially every major success that he claims. Victarion in one of his POV's thinks of how he screwed up and was defeated by Stannis during the Greyjoy Rebellion. Keep in mind Victarion lived to recall this defeat and was at the head of the Iron Fleet that was once again, only 9/10 years later, the most formidable fleet in all of Westeros. Stannis may have smashed Mance's host, but IMO it was a pretty epic fail. Stannis only survived the siege of Storms End because of Davos who lost his fingers for his bravery and life saving onions, Stannis held one of the most stout castles and didn't even face any real battle because Mace Tyrell is weak and preferred to stuff is fat face as oppose to risk his ass. Stannis lost the battle of black water bay probably because despite all his time in Kings landing the only person he was able win to his cause was Ser Clayton Suggs of Flea Bottom (if only he had friends like Pycelle or Varys). And he counts taking Drangonstone as a victory even though he failed to accomplish the major objective - capture and kill the Targ children. And were it not for Jon he would have blundered off to Dreadfort and been killed. And had he gone to the mountain clans in his usual jackassery fashion they would have laughed at him and handed him his ass.

[Budj]

Mance is far more awesome.

Mance,

Arguments For:

His Host: Mance united all of the Free Folk, except for the one asshole in league w/ the others. He kicked a few asses, sang some songs, told some jokes and bam he had the largest host in all of Westeros. A host that allowed women to fight. Women like Fryena who can over power men take their spears kill them and then hold half a dozen more. A host that included multiple skinchangers. A host that included Giants. A host that subordinated people like the Weeper to the greater good of just cause (something Jon can only aspire to achieve).

Hey come on now...in Jon's defense the Weeper knew it was fall in line or get slain by the Others...and he probably intended on being a vicious bastard once he got a chance to get away from the wall anyways. And lets see how things turn out with Borroq...

[Tagganaro]

Blasphemy! Stannis does not reach Mance's coolness by far.

If Stannis won in the battle, that was by no means Mance's guilt. His host scattered, and Stannis attacked them from behind. Just confess, Stannis needs a lute, a voice to be able to sing, manners and some general allround coolness course if he ever wants to compete with Mance. He will never took over him, though.

Plus, Stannis has never tasted his own wife, let alone the Dornishman's one. Mance has tasted them all. Because he's awesome and treats women with respect...Unlike Stannis who treats them like aliens.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Plus, Stannis has never tasted his own wife, let alone the Dornishman's one. Mance has tasted them all. Because he's awesome and treats women with respect...Unlike Stannis who treats them like aliens.

:bowdown: I like it. A lot :bowdown: I have to respect you for that

[Dogimo]

Am I the only one who thinks that Mance himself writed the message (Melissandre's intruction) that gave reason to Jon to reunite the wildlings and go to the south?

[By the Old Gods Not theNew]

sure. my point is that mance got the weeper to, even if only for a period of time, subordinate his own crazy campaign of blinding people to join to a greater cause that was about the greater good. And Jon who should be commended for his efforts has proven incapable of uniting the likes of Weeper and his sworn brothers, though he may aspire as much.

[Budj]

Am I the only one who thinks that Mance himself writed the message (Melissandre's intruction) that gave reason to Jon to reunite the wildlings and go to the south?

I agree that Mance wrote it, not that Mel has anything to do with it.

[Budj]

sure. my point is that mance got the weeper to, even if only for a period of time, subordinate his own crazy campaign of blinding people to join to a greater cause that was about the greater good. And Jon who should be commended for his efforts has proven incapable of uniting the likes of Weeper and his sworn brothers, though he may aspire as much.

I would call him Jesus if he did that, haha.

[By the Old Gods Not theNew]

Dogimo, the answer is no, you're one of many, myself included. check out the Mance FTW thread http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/72869-mance-ftw/ it's one possible scenario explain how mance could have authored the letter.

[Dogimo]

Thanks for the link BtOGNOtN

[By the Old Gods Not theNew]

well mance succeeded at convincing the weeper to join his cause, and were he not interrupted during his negotiations w/ Jon he could have convinced him to try and persuade the rest of the crows and that's at least one crow he's pretty much convinced to let him through in the first couple minutes of a negotiation. And yes Mance has Jesus Level Power, something to which Jon can only aspire. :)