Moments of Foreshadowing 2

[Budj]

I would argue that the "do not call him back from death" situation is contextually referring to affecting past events.

On the thread topic when Cat first runs into the Blackfish in GoT (paraphrasing here) but Blackfish says "home is where I turned my back" and Cat says to him "Your home is in my heart." Potential foreshadowing to Blackfish being the one to resolve the Lady Stoneheart situation as he turned his back on Riverrun (again)?

[Newstar]

Ugh, tze, I love your posts so hard. There are several Arya/Margaery connections which you've pointed out. Arya is indeed set up as the anti-Margaery: they've got brown hair in common, but that's about it. If GRRM is going where I think he's going with Arya, I expect Arya's going to have at least one "big kill," a.k.a. one of the important power players in the game of thrones (probably one the readership wouldn't miss all that much), and Margaery would certainly fit the bill. My only objection--based on nothing other than my own suspicions about TWOW--is that Margaery isn't going to live long enough for Arya to kill her/take her face. I think Margaery's headed for a public execution, Ned Stark-style, and I think it will happen long before Arya makes it to Westeros.

It's only after Sansa turns and realises the depth of Tyrion's humiliation that she decides to kneel. It's compassion, not weakness. She sustains her defiance...

I dunno. I--and others, I think--see this less as a glorious moment of defiance/touching show of compassion and rather as a rare moment of Sansa realizing she's acting like a "stubborn" brat and, "ashamed" of her behaviour, acting accordingly. Mark the date on this moment in ASOS, because Sansa rarely acknowledges shame or guilt for any of her more questionable actions, which may be one reason it seems like a big chunk of fandom has such trouble sympathizing with her. No such awareness of her actions graced her, for example, when dealing with Arya in AGOT, sadly, as I think she may eventually come one day to regret. I could be mistaken, but weren't her last words directly addressed to Arya in AGOT calling her as stupid and hairy and ugly as Hodor? That almost tops what are likely to be Tyrion's last words to Jaime. Not that Sansa has indicated that she lost any sleep over what seem to have been her last words to Arya, which, again, is part of the problem. So I do think that this moment with the kneeling stands out, but more for Sansa actually feeling ashamed of her actions and doing something about it than as some grand measure of defiance, since it doesn't seem to be written that way: Sansa describes herself as "stubborn" and as (eventually) "ashamed" of her stubbornness. I don't think it's foreshadowing, anything; I just get annoyed at all the talk praising this moment of "defiance" by Sansa, when she herself, a character not particularly prone to shame or guilt or any kind of profound moral introspection, really, is actually ashamed of her behaviour. If it were meant to come across as a glorious moment of defiance or as proof positive of Sansa's compassionate nature, it would have been written quite differently, I think. Sansa does have the rare heroic moment in the books; I don't think this is one of them.

Tyrion then had to stand on the fool's back to place the cloak around her, which of course symbolises just how much of a sham and travesty the marriage was

However, the marriage is no less binding for being a travesty, a sham, a "farce" (as Tyrion described it) and a "mockery" (as Sansa described it). Tyrion feels sufficiently bound by his vow to protect Sansa to refuse to implicate her, "even if he had to stand on a fool's back" to put the cloak of protection around her. And for all the talk of how hollow and fake the marriage is, the validity of that marriage is Sansa's best weapon against another marriage, one she is quick to deploy. (Littlefinger's grand plan for Sansa doesn't seem to include contriving an annulment, since he's content to wait until Sansa's "safely widowed," which, unless he makes something up, is not going to happen anytime soon.)

To throw Pellaeon a bone, though, I will say this: Joffrey and Margaery had a beautiful, picture-perfect wedding (as Sansa said). And yet within 12 hours of Joffrey and Margaery's beautiful ceremony, Joffrey was dead. Tyrion and Sansa had a ridiculous, laughable, horrifically awkward "farce" of a wedding (and their stint as a married couple prior to the Purple Wedding was no improvement). And yet of all the couples that have been married during the run of the series, their marriage, despite being functionally over to all appearances, is the one that's lasted the longest (only slightly longer than Edmure and Roslin's, since they got married first, although it bears noting that Edmure and Roslin also had a horrific wedding, or at least wedding feast), and they are still very much married two books later and likely to remain so--due to the practical obstacles GRRM has placed between Sansa and an annulment (as well as the low likelihood of Tyrion dying anytime soon)--while Dany/Drogo, Renly/Margaery, Robb/Jeyne, Joffrey/Margaery, and Petyr/Lysa? Not so much.

Going back to foreshadowing, we learn during that same Tyrion/Sansa wedding sequence that the blessing for the couple includes the words "cursed be the one who comes between them." It would be interesting to apply that to the other weddings (at least those conducted in the faith of the Seven), and see who the "cursed" one would be.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

Ugh, tze, I love your posts so hard. There are several Arya/Margaery connections which you've pointed out. Arya is indeed set up as the anti-Margaery: they've got brown hair in common, but that's about it. If GRRM is going where I think he's going with Arya, I expect Arya's going to have at least one "big kill," a.k.a. one of the important power players in the game of thrones (probably one the readership wouldn't miss all that much), and Margaery would certainly fit the bill. My only objection--based on nothing other than my own suspicions about TWOW--is that Margaery isn't going to live long enough for Arya to kill her/take her face. I think Margaery's headed for a public execution, Ned Stark-style, and I think it will happen long before Arya makes it to Westeros.

<snip>

However, the marriage is no less binding for being a travesty, a sham, a "farce" (as Tyrion described it) and a "mockery" (as Sansa described it). Tyrion feels sufficiently bound by his vow to protect Sansa to refuse to implicate her, "even if he had to stand on a fool's back" to put the cloak of protection around her. And for all the talk of how hollow and fake the marriage is, the validity of that marriage is Sansa's best weapon against another marriage, one she is quick to deploy. (Littlefinger's grand plan for Sansa doesn't seem to include contriving an annulment, since he's content to wait until Sansa's "safely widowed," which, unless he makes something up, is not going to happen anytime soon.)

<snip>

Going back to foreshadowing, we learn during that same Tyrion/Sansa wedding sequence that the blessing for the couple includes the words "cursed be the one who comes between them." It would be interesting to apply that to the other weddings (at least those conducted in the faith of the Seven), and see who the "cursed" one would be.

A lot of people think that Margaery is going to be found guilty in the trial by the faith and be executed. I don't see this at all; (1) even the High Septon admits that the credible evidence against Margaery is sparse, (2) there's still a Tyrell army of 50,000 soldiers in or around King's Landing, and the gods are always on the side of the big battalions, and (3) removing the Tyrells would put the Lannisters back in control, only all the Lannisters are dead or missing except Cersei, who is not exactly popular with the High Septon. I just don't see how Margaery could plausibly be removed at this point.

Yeah, Tyrion's wedding vows -- wasn't a vow of fidelity included among them? That kept him out of Shae's bed for at least a hot half-hour (and please don't tell me he had to have Shae or his widdle blue balls would have exploded because Sansa wouldn't do him).

Jaime came between Cersei and Robert, and he's shown signs of being cursed. The Freys managed to get between Edmure and Roslin (who I think is going to die in childbirth) and created their own curse in the same feast. Littlefinger got between Jon Arryn and Lysa and Ned and Catelyn, I can only hope with all my might that he's cursed. I'd say that the Queen of Thorns, Margaery and perhaps Garlan are cursed for getting between Margaery and Joffrey except that I think they did as much for Westeros by knocking off Joff as Jaime did for King's Landing when he killed Aerys.

Can't think of any other specific examples but the fact is that almost everyone in Westeros is cursed just because they live there.

[Fire Eater]

After Robar Royce was knocked off his horse in a joust against Loras Tyrell

"Robar lay moaning as the victor made his circuit of the field. Finally they called for a litter and carried him off to his tent, dazed and unmoving."

This foreshadows Renly killing Robar after Renly's death.

Robert to Ned: "And make certain I never look on your face again, or I swear, I'll have your head on a spike!"

Joffrey makes good on that promise as Robert did look upon Ned's face again.

The Ghost of High Heart spoke of a maiden [sansa] slaying a savage giant in a castle made of snow. In Sansa's final chapter in AFfC she looks at the Eyrie thinking: "a castle made of snow."

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

The Ghost of High Heart spoke of a maiden [sansa] slaying a savage giant in a castle made of snow. In Sansa's final chapter in AFfC she looks at the Eyrie thinking: "a castle made of snow."

This is one of the ones I'm looking forward to the most. I really do think it refers to Sansa and Littlefinger (the titan of Braavos being the original Baelish sigil) and I can't wait for it to happen.

[DonalNoye]

The shock was plain on their faces. "My lady, that is a monstrous suggestion," said Rodrik Cassel. "Even the Kingslayer would flinch at the murder of an innocent child."

"Oh, would he?" Theon Greyjoy asked. "I wonder."

Page 137 of AGOT. Fucking Theon.

[Pelican]

Fire Eater, on 03 November 2012 - 11:46 PM, said:

The Ghost of High Heart spoke of a maiden [sansa] slaying a savage giant in a castle made of snow. In Sansa's final chapter in AFfC she looks at the Eyrie thinking: "a castle made of snow."

Apple Martini: This is one of the ones I'm looking forward to the most. I really do think it refers to Sansa and Littlefinger (the titan of Braavos being the original Baelish sigil) and I can't wait for it to happen.

This one interests me as well. Although the LF/giant reading makes the most sense, part of me hopes that somehow Sansa gets to Winterfell and (also somehow wave-of-the-wand) is instrumental in the death of Ramsay Snow Bolton. A little revenge for the hapless Jeyne. It's a stretch, I know. I tried to come up with a connection where she and Jon Snow wreak revenge on someone, but I got nothing.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Funny that Alliser Thorne called Jon Snow "Lord Snow" as a point of derision, and then Jon becomes Lord Commander and is then, of course, an actual Lord Snow.

[Newstar]

The Ghost of High Heart spoke of a maiden [sansa] slaying a savage giant in a castle made of snow. In Sansa's final chapter in AFfC she looks at the Eyrie thinking: "a castle made of snow."

This is one of the ones I'm looking forward to the most. I really do think it refers to Sansa and Littlefinger (the titan of Braavos being the original Baelish sigil) and I can't wait for it to happen.

Isn't the Eyrie effectively shut down for the winter, though?

Yeah, Tyrion's wedding vows -- wasn't a vow of fidelity included among them? That kept him out of Shae's bed for at least a hot half-hour (and please don't tell me he had to have Shae or his widdle blue balls would have exploded because Sansa wouldn't do him).

I didn't intend it as a ringing defence of Tyrion's adherence to his marriage vows (even aside from Shae, he's pretty much rolling his eyes inwardly when he's lying to Penny about how he must remain true to Sansa in ADWD). Rather, my point was that even though Tyrion and Sansa viewed the marriage as a farce, mockery, etc. etc., ultimately, it's no less real for being a "farce" and a "mockery" in their eyes, as evidenced by Littlefinger contriving to kill Tyrion rather than to attempt to get the marriage annulled, Tyrion still feeling bound by his vow to protect Sansa and Sansa, who was thrilled to be freed of her "mockery" of a marriage, claiming that she is already married to deflect another unwanted marriage. Nor do, say, Stannis, with his talk of "Lady Lannister," and Cersei, for starters, seem to particularly care that Tyrion and Sansa view their marriage as a sham, farce, etc.: it doesn't make them any less married in their eyes (not that Stannis would know their feelings on the subject, but you see my point).

Jaime came between Cersei and Robert, and he's shown signs of being cursed. The Freys managed to get between Edmure and Roslin (who I think is going to die in childbirth) and created their own curse in the same feast. Littlefinger got between Jon Arryn and Lysa and Ned and Catelyn, I can only hope with all my might that he's cursed. I'd say that the Queen of Thorns, Margaery and perhaps Garlan are cursed for getting between Margaery and Joffrey except that I think they did as much for Westeros by knocking off Joff as Jaime did for King's Landing when he killed Aerys.

Agreed with all of these. Isn't it also arguable--although she didn't consciously come between them--that Sansa is the one who came between Littlefinger and Lysa?

Can't think of any other specific examples but the fact is that almost everyone in Westeros is cursed just because they live there.

Yup. Westeros is a Crapsack World, for sure (tm TV Tropes).

[Scipio Africanus]

Isn't the Eyrie effectively shut down for the winter, though?

The other problem is that LF's sigil is a mockingbird.

The Stone Giant still makes me think more of Bob Strong to be honest but we'll see.

[Fire Eater]

The other problem is that LF's sigil is a mockingbird.

The Stone Giant still makes me think more of Bob Strong to be honest but we'll see.

The sigil of LF's family is the Titan of Braavos.

As for the Eyrie, the Gates of the Moon and waycastles are considered part of it.

[Harald Hard-Ruler]

The other problem is that LF's sigil is a mockingbird.

The Stone Giant still makes me think more of Bob Strong to be honest but we'll see.

I always thought the giant being killed was a reference to Robin's doll that Sansa destroys when Robin tries to wreck the snow castle that she has built. I guess it doesn't sound like a very momentous occasion but when you take into account that event leads to the kiss between Sansa and Petyr which in turn leads to Petyr killing Lysa it's kinda an important moment.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

I didn't intend it as a ringing defence of Tyrion's adherence to his marriage vows (even aside from Shae, he's pretty much rolling his eyes inwardly when he's lying to Penny about how he must remain true to Sansa in ADWD). Rather, my point was that even though Tyrion and Sansa viewed the marriage as a farce, mockery, etc. etc., ultimately, it's no less real for being a "farce" and a "mockery" in their eyes, as evidenced by Littlefinger contriving to kill Tyrion rather than to attempt to get the marriage annulled, Tyrion still feeling bound by his vow to protect Sansa and Sansa, who was thrilled to be freed of her "mockery" of a marriage, claiming that she is already married to deflect another unwanted marriage. Nor do, say, Stannis, with his talk of "Lady Lannister," and Cersei, for starters, seem to particularly care that Tyrion and Sansa view their marriage as a sham, farce, etc.: it doesn't make them any less married in their eyes (not that Stannis would know their feelings on the subject, but you see my point).

I agree that it's a real marriage on paper (except that it hasn't been ratified by the parties, so to speak). What I was thinking of is Tyrion's and Sansa's attitude and adherence to those vows, especially Tyrion's. When Tyrion's waiting for his trial he regards Sansa with some bitterness for escaping and leaving him to take the rap (which wasn't her intention). His thinks something like "so much for one body, one mind, one soul" or whatever the exact phrase was. I read that and thought, along with many others, I'm sure, "what the hell did you expect?" This was typical Tyrion, imo, in that he had unrealistic expectations: he wanted both his unwilling bride and his paid mistress to be loving and faithful, lotsa luck, dude. Of course he had no intention to be faithful to either of them, or anything else that those vows implied, although this doesn't make him much different than most other husbands in Westeros.

Sansa wanted nothing more than to get as far away from Tyrion and his miserable family ASAP, which is completely understandable under the circumstances, but that desire is totally inconsistent with the vows as well.

[Newstar]

Sand Snake No. 9, I think we're actually in agreement on this one, so I won't address your post, at the risk of beating a dead horse.

I've been thinking a fair bit about the books being originally planned as a trilogy, and how GRRM has been saying all along that he's got a planned endpoint in mind for all the main characters, and he's had that endpoint in mind since the beginning. If that's the case, and given how GRRM was originally planning on a very "tight" trilogy, I'd hazard a guess that all the major foreshadowing for the ultimate fates/endpoints of the major characters is laid down in AGOT, right out the gate. If that's the case, then when looking for clues as to where the main characters will ultimately end up, it seems like AGOT is the best place to look. Going under that assumption, is there anything in AGOT that seems to telegraph the fate of any particular main character? (That hasn't already been discussed to death in the Reread threads, that is, since we'd be here all day otherwise.)

On a related note, I'd also hazard a guess that the later characters are introduced in the series, the less important they are to the ultimate resolution of the books except as the odd plot catalyst. I think that they're basically "filler," and ultimately expendable. I would lump into that category the Tyrells, the Boltons, the Martells (and the Dornish in general), the non-Theon Ironborn, anybody introduced post-AGOT in Essos, Aegon and his cronies, and yes, even Stannis, Melisandre, Davos, and Brienne. I also expect most of these characters to be dead before the end of the books, to "clear the board" for the really important characters--whichever of the major characters from AGOT who are still standing--to do their stuff. (Of course, the converse isn't true. Just because a character was introduced in AGOT doesn't mean that the character is safe: Tywin, Catelyn, Eddard, Lysa, etc. etc.)

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

The other problem is that LF's sigil is a mockingbird.

The Stone Giant still makes me think more of Bob Strong to be honest but we'll see.

Baelish's personal sigil is the mockingbird, but the actual sigil of House Baelish itself is the Titan of Braavos.

I always thought the giant being killed was a reference to Robin's doll that Sansa destroys when Robin tries to wreck the snow castle that she has built. I guess it doesn't sound like a very momentous occasion but when you take into account that event leads to the kiss between Sansa and Petyr which in turn leads to Petyr killing Lysa it's kinda an important moment.

I think a lot of people did, yeah. The thing is that the other visions that the Ghost sees do actually refer to death — Catelyn, Robb and Grey Wind, Balon, Joffrey. It wouldn't make much sense to have that one incident, if it's the snow castle and doll, lumped together with other visions that are actually death-related. I'm more inclined to believe that the snow castle and doll thing was a sleight of hand, a distraction to make readers think the vision had already been fulfilled and thus more likely to be taken by surprise when it actually does happen.

[Newstar]

I think a lot of people did, yeah. The thing is that the other visions that the Ghost sees do actually refer to death — Catelyn, Robb and Grey Wind, Balon, Joffrey. It wouldn't make much sense to have that one incident, if it's the snow castle and doll, lumped together with other visions that are actually death-related. I'm more inclined to believe that the snow castle and doll thing was a sleight of hand, a distraction to make readers think the vision had already been fulfilled and thus more likely to be taken by surprise when it actually does happen.

Okay. Let's assume that the prophecy did not refer to the business with Sweetrobin's doll and has yet to be fulfilled. If that's true, then Sansa is going to "slay" a "savage giant." "Slaying" to me connotes not poison or some other subtle or indirect form of violence (like getting someone to do it for her), but straight up violent killing. Sansa has shown herself capable of violence when pushed to it (albeit of a very limited kind, like ripping the head off a doll), but slaying someone? That's Arya's style, not Sansa's. Even if Sansa were emotionally/psychologically capable of slaying someone (or something, I guess), how on Earth would she manage it? This is Sansa, who's not particularly physically strong (unlike Arya, who's been doing heavy manual labour) and who never picked up a sword in her life that we know of. The most common candidates for the savage giant bandied about are Robert Strong, Littlefinger, and Tyrion. Do we seriously think she could get the better of any of these guys in single combat, especially if they're in "savage" mode? (I roll my eyes at Tyrion the competent battle hero, but apparently that's the line GRRM has sold us, so whatever.) It just makes no sense to me, unless you twist the words of the prophecy beyond all meaning, as fans seem to want to do ("that same maid slaying a savage giant" somehow becomes "Sansa's going to get Sandor Clegane to kill Robert Strong for her!" Okay...).

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Okay. Let's assume that the prophecy did not refer to the business with Sweetrobin's doll and has yet to be fulfilled. If that's true, then Sansa is going to "slay" a "savage giant." "Slaying" to me connotes not poison or some other subtle or indirect form of violence (like getting someone to do it for her), but straight up violent killing. Sansa has shown herself capable of violence when pushed to it (albeit of a very limited kind, like ripping the head off a doll), but slaying someone? That's Arya's style, not Sansa's. Even if Sansa were emotionally/psychologically capable of slaying someone (or something, I guess), how on Earth would she manage it? This is Sansa, who's never picked up a sword in her life that we know of. The most common candidates for the savage giant bandied about are Robert Strong, Littlefinger, and Tyrion. Do we seriously think she could get the better of any of these guys in single combat, especially if they're in "savage" mode? It just makes no sense to me.

You assume that "slay" must mean picking up an actual weapon and using it in a traditionally combative sense. I wouldn't think of it in such narrow terms. If anything, the dynamic between Littlefinger and Sansa seems to hint that at some point, the pupil will get wise and turn on the master, especially when she learns about his role in her family's demise (and she will, of that I have no doubt). In terms of political intrigue, there's more than one way to skin a cat and more than one way to slay someone. Think outside the box.

[Newstar]

You assume that "slay" must mean picking up an actual weapon and using it in a traditionally combative sense. I wouldn't think of it in such narrow terms. If anything, the dynamic between Littlefinger and Sansa seems to hint that at some point, the pupil will get wise and turn on the master, especially when she learns about his role in her family's demise (and she will, of that I have no doubt). In terms of political intrigue, there's more than one way to skin a cat and more than one way to slay someone. Think outside the box.

That's the problem, though. The phrasing of the prophecy, particularly the use of the word "slay," imposes a very particular box, or framework. Your interpretation would completely distort that framework and render it meaningless, by ignoring the specific word choice to suit your own ideas about where you imagine Sansa's arc is going. There isn't "more than one way to slay someone." Slaying is slaying, and "slaying" has a very particular meaning. Sansa did "slay" Sweetrobin's doll; she ripped its head off! Sansa slew (love that!) the doll. She slew the crap out of it. Some sort of complicated maneuvring by Sansa resulting in Littlefinger's demise--which seems to me to be wishful thinking on fans' parts who have this notion of Sansa as some sort of budding political mastermind, but whatever--would be many things, but it would not be "slaying," in any sense.

Assuming the prophecy does refer to something which hasn't happened yet, in winter, any castle could be a "castle made of snow."

I'm curious as to what you think a vision about a girl ripping the head off of a doll has to do with no fewer than four other visions that described the deaths of real people and not children's toys. One of these is not like the other.

Well, no. They all refer to events that happen in ASOS. Your interpretation would have "ASOS death, ASOS death, ASOS death, ASOS death...TWOW/ADOS death." One of those things is not like the other.

Maybe GRRM with the snow castle prophecy is having a bit of fun with fans who are desperately looking for some indication, any indication, that Sansa's going to do something amazing. "OMG, Sansa's going to slay a savage giant!" "Haha, nope, the 'savage giant' is a child's toy! Better luck next time, suckers!"

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

That's the problem, though. The phrasing of the prophecy, particularly the use of the word "slay," imposes a very particular box, or framework. Your interpretation would completely distort that framework and render it meaningless, by ignoring the specific word choice to suit your own ideas about where you imagine Sansa's arc is going. There isn't "more than one way to slay someone." Slaying is slaying, and "slaying" has a very particular meaning. Sansa did "slay" Sweetrobin's doll; she ripped its head off! Sansa slew (love that!) the doll. She slew the crap out of it. Some sort of complicated maneuvring by Sansa resulting in Littlefinger's demise--which seems to me to be wishful thinking on fans' parts who have this notion of Sansa as some sort of budding political mastermind, but whatever--would be many things, but it would not be "slaying," in any sense.

Slay means "to kill." If Sansa successfully kills Littlefinger, she'll have slain him.

I'm curious as to what you think a vision about a girl ripping the head off of a doll has to do with no fewer than four other visions that described the deaths of real people and not children's toys. One of these is not like the other.

[Fire Eater]

When Catelyn visits the Eyrie and meets Mya Stone: "She sounded so like Sansa, so happy and innocent with her dreams." Sansa becomes a Stone like Mya later on.