Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

David C. Hunter

Ice and Fire Assessment...Theory (Long Read)

Recommended Posts

Ice and Fire Assessment

Look at the Valyrians and First Men and a speculation of their history and purpose

A lot of what I will type many of us already believe, but I wanted to organize everything into one theory.

There is nothing more interesting in the series to me then the dualism between the history of the First Men and Valyrians and yes, I believe that this is one of the several meanings behind the title : Song of Ice(First Men) and Fire(Valyrians). It is a dance, a song between these two blood lines.

Make no mistake about it. In the simplest form of this story, everything is about Bloodlines. In particular the blood of Old Valyria and the Blood of the First Men. Unlike the boring Andals (Sorry I just had to), those two bloodlines are special in this world. However, I want to emphasize the dualism and the parallels between the two cultures very closely to show that this song started with them and will end with them. Clashing is inevitable and this is nowhere near the first time these two bloodlines have clashed.

Origins:

The First Men’s origins are tied to the Children of the Forest (COTF). 10-12,000 years ago the First Men crossed the land bridge that connected Essos to Westeros. They began fighting the COTF and chopping down weirwoods in order to gain dominance in Westeros. They fought for thousands of years (An example of inaccurate history). Eventually, a truce was made. The COTF kept to the forest, hills, tunnels, etc and the First Men essentially gained everything else. They also agreed not to cut down anymore heart trees, which was probably a big deal. For 4,000 years they seemed to live peacefully side by side more or less.

The Valyrian’s origins are tied to the Dragons. They were shepherds living on the Valyrian peninsula. Peaceful people I’m guessing. At least 5,000 years ago (I’d say closer to 6,000) they stumbled upon the fourteen fires and discovered Dragons and their lairs. They began teaching, training and taming the Dragons and eventually began to ride them.

Notes:

- The First Men stumbled across the COTF; the Valyrians stumbled across Dragon lairs

- The First Men ‘tamed’ or conquered the COTF; The Valyrians tamed or ‘conquered’ the Dragons

- Notice the time difference. Although the time periods are most likely inaccurate, it should be safe to assume that the First Men left Essos and conquered Westeros long before the Valyrians discovered the Dragons. This is an important distinction that I will come back to later.

What happens to these two cultures on the rise has to do with their ‘bonding’ with their…partners for a lack of a better word.

Blood Sacrifice:

The First Men seem to somewhat assimilate into the ways of the Children. They begin praying to the trees and worshipping the Old Gods, which was the culture of the COTF. However, I also believe they learned something else from the COTF. Blood Sacrifice.

It is never really stated that the Children or the First Men practiced Blood Sacrifices, but it is hinted at.

1.) Bran sees a flashback, thousands of years old in which he sees a Blood sacrifice given before the heart tree

2.) The Turnkey tells Ser Davos about the story of Brandon Ice Eyes(Will come back to this) Stark giving slavers to their slaves and then decorating a heart tree with their entrails as a blood sacrifice to the Old Gods.

3.) Many believe (Not me) that Bran is eating Jojen’s blood as a paste to heighten his powers

4.) Bran also seems to be desperate to get Theon to the Heart tree. Maybe his sacrifice will awaken the trees/powers like in eons past? Pure speculation but the power of royal blood is emphasized over, and over and over in this series.

5.) There are many, many scattered bones of beasts, COTF and humans scattered all over the tunnels of the Last Greenseer. Could they really have been eating them? Blood Sacrifice? Decorations?

I find it hard to believe that the First Men adopted the Old Gods from the Children, but that they invented the Blood Sacrifice all by themselves. Just to be sure we are on the same page, when I say Blood Sacrifice I mean the sacrifice of a life. When Bran sees the sacrifice through the eyes of the heart tree they slit the person’s throat.

The Valyrians are slightly more straight forward. The words for the Targaryans, the offshoot descendants of the Valyrians, are “Fire and Blood”. At first glance many of us would assume that means ‘Hi, we are Targaryans. We will conquer you with fire and spill your blood, yadda, yadda, yadda.’ However, what if these words are based on the origins of their power? A certain sacrifice that was needed in order to bind the Dragons to their blood? This did not become apparent until we learned of the Dragon Horn that Euron Greyjoy ‘found’.

When you blow the Dragon Horn supposedly the nearest(?) Dragon will be yours. There is a catch however… Whoever blows the horn will die! In fact, the Dragons do not come to the one who blows the horn. Instead they come to the one who has actually bound the Dragon’s horn to himself via Blood. (e.g. Victarion Greyjoy). This is an immediate blood sacrifice for the binding of Dragons and requires deception or force. It actually implies that in order for you to bind a Dragon to yourself, someone has to sacrifice him/herself. No wonder the Valyrians had slaves. Blood Sacrifice, just like the First Men.

They bound the Dragons to their Blood to such an extent that their race forever has a connection with them. Even Brown Ben Plum who has just a little Valyrian blood seems to be well liked by Dany’s Dragons.

Once they bound the Dragons to their blood they would forever shed the persona of the peaceful shepherds and become the Dragon Lords, the Blood of the Dragon(Literally). This is a blood sacrifice for unification. It makes you wonder how this initially started. Who was the first poor fool to blow the horn? Then after that, did the Valyrians trick any poor peasant to blow the horn kind of like how Victarion is doing to the three poor fools on his vessel? (On a side note, I believe the initial sacrifices had to do with unification. The Dragon Horns IMO were used to help tame/ride Dragons)

It also raises more questions. If the Valyrians used Blood Sacrifices to bind/unify Dragons to their blood, then what did the First Men use the Blood Sacrifices for? What/Who were they trying to unify with?

This actually leads me into my next point (Bare with me)

Blood Magic:

The First Men lived with the COTF for a long time is relative peace. They adopted their customs and Gods. Blood Sacrifices were probably a part of their cultures. However, the First Men also started receiving new gifts from their agitated neighbors. The Children had many magical powers that are beyond belief (Destroying the land bridge from Essos to Westeros and also trying to separate the North for the South at the Neck.) However, one can say that they mainly have two magical gifts: Skinchanging/warging and Greenseeing. They could talk to and ‘influence’ trees and animals. They could see time through the eyes of a heart tree and could see across vast distances.

Based on what we know on present situations and recent history, it would seem that anyone who has the blood of the First Men in his veins has the potential to be a skinchanger or greenseer.

e.g.

-Varmyr (As well as other wildlings and it seems to be pretty common beyond the wall)

-Stark Kids

-Blood Raven

-Jojen Reed (Seems like Greenseers have been fairly common amongst the crannogs)

Andals, that make up a majority of the population in Westeros, do not seem to have these abilities. It’s no secret that the Children of the Forest and the First Men share these magical traits, the question is how? Could they have interbreeded? It is a possibility. (I believe that the crannogs are descendants of First Men and COTF interbreeding). However, I think that it is a higher possibility that it is some form of blood magic since it seems to be so prevalent in ancient times. Similar to how they are trying to ‘awaken’ Bran’s powers in the Cave(Jojen’s Paste!). Maybe Royal Blood also plays a key to it. Maybe the ‘Pact’ between the COTF and First Men entailed more than just sharing land, maybe they desired to share abilities. I doubt it was mutual gain as the COTF clearly got the worst end of the deal.

This is all pure speculation, but I am forming a theory based on the increasing evidence that blood sacrifice was prevalent, royal blood means something, and that the accuracy of history is tainted. (Especially the whole COTF are sweet, cuddly and lovable while the White Walkers are evil!).

It would seem that despite the formation of opposing sides to this ‘magic’ that they are actually a part of the same overall manifestation with different interpretations. And whether Valyrian or First Men, your magic is based in blood.

Notes: Incestial Marriages:

-Given the importance of the blood lines, it makes a lot more sense for the Valyrians to practice incestial marriages and trying their best to keep the bloodlines pure. If you water down the bloodlines by mating with outsiders, the power within the magic also decreases.

-This also gives reasoning to why the Starks rarely married anyone who wasn’t of First Men descent (There were many reasons for this, but bare with me).

So why do it? Why even go through the sacrifice to gain powers beyond your understanding? Greed? It could be, but I somehow doubt that the Valyrian Shepherds were trying to dominate the world. It’s more realistic for me to believe that maybe the Valyrians did it as a desperate way to survive. The Ghiscari Empire was on the Valyrians doorstep. It could’ve been that they were pushing to try and control Valyria. The Valyrians discovered the Dragons, fought back and eventually defeated the the Ghiscari Empire. In fact that is the first we hear of the Valyrian Freehold – when they are battling the Ghiscar. It wasn’t until they defeated that great empire that they truly became the Blood of the Dragon and decided to expand their territory.

Ice and Fire:

The Valyrians began discovering how strong their magic was ‘after’ they bound themselves to the Dragons and soon they began to hone their ‘fire’ magic.

1.) They were incredible builders and they formed wonderful towers from their fire magic that stretched to the heavens. (Dragonstone is a good example)

2.) They made glass candles that could peer across the heavens and communicate with someone from afar. Sound familiar?

3.) As beings, they became more tolerable to intense heat (Not invulnerable, don’t jump on me)

4.) Valyrians also were known for having prophetic dreams

I also believe the First Men eventually binded themselves to a force for survival. I talked about how they adopted the COTF Old Gods as well as blood rituals. However, they never inherited the title as Kings of Winter from the Children. The COTF are associated with nature in general, but the only force that is synonymous with Winter are the White Walkers. Even though all descendants of the First Men have the potential to become skin changers or greenseers, it was only the Starks that were called the Kings of Winter from the very beginning and they also seem to have a greater talent for the ability to skin change or greenseeing. How did this happen? I believe the Long Night and the story of the Last Hero can hint at this.

Long story short, the First Men were getting their asses kicked by the White Walkers as well as the Winter itself. The Last Hero leads a team deep into the woods to try and find the reclusive COTF to see if they have any kind of magic to help them turn the tide. He searches for years and his entire team dies. Last we see of him he is struggling, crawling to get away from his winter specters with his broken sword...and then Old Nan is cut off. There are only a few things that could’ve happened:

1.) The COTF save him

2,) He dies

3.) He fights off the White Walkers

4.) Something totally different.

-History isn’t accurate. I understand that later on Bran thinks that the Children save him but, the Children literally have no motivation to help this human. Hell, they probably watched his entire team die over the years while looking for them, so why help him now? Pity? Yes because ASOIAF is full of characters who pity. The way Old Nan described the story it sounded as if the COTF left the humans to die. We’re talking about a race of magical beings that tried to cut the continent in half to stop the invasion, do you think they would grow sympathetic because the humans are ‘brave’? They abandoned them. Bottomline, I do not believe they helped. If he died right then and there we wouldn’t be talking about him now. Considering that he has a broken sword, freezing and starving I believe it is safe to say that he didn’t go all Aragorn. What if he made some sort of deal with the White Walkers? What if it was one last plea for help for the safety of his life? Was it an ‘If you can’t beat them, join them’ mentality? Pure speculation, but what is known is that once the Long Winter was over the Starks were declared the Kings in the North and the Kings of Winter. The Stark ancestors were not the only people in the fight. Evidently the Boltons were there is well, so why give a title of such magnitude to the Starks? Could it be that the men who would become the Starks were the ones that conquered the Long Winter? Makes sense to me. In fact the seat of the Starks is called ‘Winterfell’ and I doubt it’s just because it’s a cool name. It honestly wouldn’t surprise me if we come to find out that the White Walkers were called the the Kings of Winter before the Starks. Who wouldn’t call them the Kings of Winter during the Long Winter?

Regardless, after the Long Night, the Starks became synonymous with Winter as well as the powers of ‘Ice Magic’. Brandon the Builder, who eventually became Brandon Stark, seem to possess these powers. He built Winterfell and the Wall, both of which that we know are intertwined with magic (I say blood Ice magic). The Wall was built allegedly to keep the White Walkers out and after witnessing characters like ‘Coldhands’ unable to cross over it, I believe this is true. Even though the abilities to Skinchange and greensee were traits that all First Men seem to possess, it would seem that the Starks became the champions and figureheads of these powers. In the crypts of Winterfell there seem to be many Kings and Lords that have effigies of themselves and their pet direwolves, which means that warging into a Direwolf was probably a staple of the Starks and probably the reasoning for the origins of their sigil. A theorist on Westeros.org months ago stated that he believed the reason why the Boltons started to skin their enemies and then wear their skins is because they were trying to mimic the Skinchanging skills that the Starks possessed. It’s a brilliant theory. After reading a few Dunk and Egg stories people in years past seemed to fear the Starks way more than they do in the present. No doubt they were probably feared a lot more before they became mere Lords.

Just a recap of the powers of ‘Ice’:

The Starks began discovering how strong their magic was ‘after’ they bound themselves to the White Walkers and soon they began to hone their ‘ice’ magic.

1.) They were incredible builders and they formed The Wall and Winterfell with their ice magic

2.) They were able to skinchange into animals and heart trees and through their eyes they could peer across the lands, seas and skies and communicate with someone from afar. Sound familiar?

3.) As beings, they became more tolerable to intense winter (Not invulnerable, don’t jump on me)

Notes:

-Valyrians built incredible towers and holds with fire magic, the Starks built the Wall and Winterfell with Ice Magic (Just to recall, Both are based in blood)

-Starks used to ability of Skin change to warg into birds, animals and plants in order to see over vast distances and to communicate with someone far way, the Valyrians used glass candles to see over vast distances and communicate with someone far away.

-Greenseers can have prophetic dreams, Valyrians can have prophetic dreams

-Starks were more tolerable to cold, Valyrians were more tolerable to fire.

(These parallels are not coincidental)

White Walkers and the Starks:

I know many are not set on the connection between the White Walkers and the Starks through my interpretation of the Last hero, however even if you are not sold on the idea of the Last Hero selling his soul to the White Walkers for survival, you have to admit that the theory has merit. In fact, it happens again.

The 13th Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch was brother to the Stark King(I believe this – Nan is never wrong). At one point he falls in love with a pale skinned, blue eyes woman. He takes her for his wife and when he gives her his seed, she takes his soul. He declares himself the Night’s King and rules tyrannically over the Night’s Watch for 13 years. Eventually, the King Beyond the Wall and the King in the North join forces to take him out. Eventually they find out that he was sacrificing children to the White Walkers and they had all files and evidence of his existence removed. A few things to take from this:

1.) The King Beyond the Wall and the King in the North evidently got along

2.) It took them thirteen years to realize that the Night’s King was a threat

3.) They didn’t really seem to care that he married a White Walker, but seemed more upset at the fact that he was ruling over them in a torturous, tyrannical way.

4.) The White Walkers were clearly not obliterated during the Long Winter and seemed to be doing fine beyond the wall.

5.) Once they found out that he was sacrificing to the White Walkers, they expunged all records of his existence. It seemed as if this wasn’t the first time that this has happened.

Here is an example of a Stark giving his soul to White Walker. Literal or not, the language is dramatic. Did she turn him into something similar to Cold Hands? Could Coldhands be the night King?

The Last Hero could have been one of the ancestors of the Starks. He could’ve given his soul to the White Walkers in the same way. It makes you wonder about certain the phrase, “Their must always be a Stark in Winterfell”…why? Why must there always be a Stark In Winterfell? And it has to be a Stark, not a Karstak, not a Royce, but a Stark. There could be a Magic connection based in Royal Blood, and I do not think it is a coincidence that everytime a Stark goes South something terrible happens to him. It is almost as if there is a barrier from allowing a Stark to survive away from the Old Gods.

There is not enough material to fully learn the connection between the White Walkers, COTF, Starks, Winterfell and the Wall. But it seems that the magic they possess is based in Blood Magic and Blood Sacrifice, just like the Valyrians and there Dragons.

Battle of Ice and Fire:

This entire long thread has led to this part.

Eventually the Valyrians conquered most, if not all of Essos. The Blood of the Dragon and Masters of Fire Magic. One can look at the continent as one founded in the Flames or Light. Why? Some examples:

1.) Obviously the Free Cities were forged by the Fires of the Dragons and their Valyrian Masters

2.) The Religion of R’hillor is based here. The Lord of Light. Flames and Light, Light, Light. Traditionally the Lord of Light has had a hard time getting a foothold in Westeros

3.) Even the story of Azhor Ahai is about a savior wielding Lightbringer, who saves the world from Darkness

4.) Climate Wise Essos may have oasis’, but overall it has a Northern Africa/India feel to me and after going through the Red Waste it seems that Essos is largely an arid, desert like climate.

5.) In Valyria the lands are called “The Lands of the Long Summer.”

So when we see Essos, their Dragon history and the Doom of Valryia, we should think ‘Summer’, that’s the point.

In contrast in Westeros the culture is writhed in darkness and cold. Darkness in history and darkness in climate. Even though I believe that all of Westeros was more ‘dark’ in eons past, their power and magic seem to be strongest in the North. Just like I am sure the power of Old Valyria is strongest in Valyria(No one who travels there returns)

1.) The North was forged in Ice (Winterfell, The Wall) by the Starks through thousands of years of expanding and trying to conquer the other territories.

2.) The Old Gods are nameless, except for the eerie carvings of their alleged faces in the heart trees.

While teaching Bran to look through the eyes of the weirwood(essentially saying ‘play god’) he tells him that ‘Darkness is your friend’ and to never be afraid of it. (I maybe wrong but Mel sees Bloodraven in her flames an thinks he is the Great Other)

3.) Unlike the story of AA, The Last Hero’s journey is and ends all in darkness

4.) Although Westeros has many different climates, the North is cold and dark. Overall the North is the size of the other 6 kingdoms combined.

5.) In the Lands North of the Wall, it is called the Lands of Always Winter

It maybe more accurate to say that this a battle between Light and Darkness with Fire and Ice being the forms of magic that it manifests as. Neither one is bad or good, just is an inevitable clash for a period of dominance.

Valyria and the Lands of the Long Summer is in stark opposition and contrast to the North and the Lands of Always Winter. At one point the First Men ruled all of Westeros, at one point the Valyrians ruled all of Essos. The Starks are an offshoot of the First Men, the Targaryans are an offshoot of the Valyrians. The Starks do not remember a lot about their origins, their magic or what they truly are, the Targaryans do not remember a lot about their origins, their magic or what they truly are. The Stark house is exiled, the Targaryan house is exiled. Neither side practices blood magic anymore, but it seems as if they will be heading in that direction, especially to reclaim what is theres.

I fully expect the Lord of Light to become Dany’s religion. As we have seen they are often giving blood sacrifices to the Flames(That’s not a coincidence). Just the same in the North, Bran may have sacrificed Jojen to unleash his full power and maybe Theon Greyjoy will become the Blood Sacrfice needed before the Heart Tree to re-open a long forgotten tradition.

I believe these two sides have been at war with each other since the beginning of time. I believe that either Light or Dark rules for a long time, but only to be defeated by the opposite who would then rule for an extended period of time. There are hints to this.

For example, GRRM has said that eons ago Dragons covered the world. They were in Westeros as well as Essos. That’s pretty amazing, but what happened? They died out? More likely they were killed off by the opposite force of Darkness/Ice and eventually made extinct in Westeros. However, thousands of years later they are discovered by a few shepherds to train them to be weapons and to try and reclaim dominance over the dark once more. You can call each one of these periods a generation. The Long Winter itself could’ve been a generation on that time scale in which the world was covered in darkness.

Maybe that’s why the Valyrians never tried to conquer Westeros. Maybe they knew about the balance and did not want to trigger their own downfall by upsetting it.

What is different about this generation? A Few things, but none more profound then the invasion of the Andals. The Andals through a wrench in the balance. They are neither light or dark. They have no stake in this war except to advance in a modern sense without magic.

When they landed in Westeros, they conquered all the Kingdoms except the North(Where the Power was the strongest). They killed the COTF and cut down the weirwoods, essentially crippling the magical powers of the First Men and Children.

Eventually, the Doom brings an end to the Valyrian Freenhold as well. Most Dragons and Valyrians die, except the Targaryans who lived on Dragonstone. Eventually the small force on Dragonstone conquers the six of the seven kingdoms in Westeros. In terms of battle between Light and Dark, the two biggest things about this moment in history is that

1.) Even though the Valyrian Freehold was no more, the magic forces of Light was rejuvenated.

2.) The Starks bent the knee and for the first time since the beginning they were no longer called the Kings in the North or the Kings of Winter. They were merely lords and subservient to the Dragons lords of fire and light

-It should be noted, that had Torrhen Stark not bend his knee, the Starks would’ve been obliterated, The Magic of Ice and Blood that flowed through their veins would be lost forever. So in a way, Torrhen Stark was the greatest hero in the history of their House, for he was the one saved them despite being shamed. Either way, The Dragon Lords of Light escape their demise in the Doom and now have dominion over the magic of Darkness, Ice and Blood.

However, the Andals were still there, and they still had plenty of influence.

Maesters: Somebody had to see through history, research, etc. this ancient battle of Ice/Darkness and Fire/Light. We learn that it was the Maesters that killed off the rest of the Dragons in Westeros…why? Just because? Most Maesters today(Especially the higher echelon ones) hate magic, hate talking about magic, look down on it and aren’t above hiring someone to make sure you shutup about anything you think you may know. They wanted to end magic. Why? Honestly, a country is way easier to control without magic(Order), maybe they knew about the eternal struggle between Ice and Fire that usually leads to war and turmoil. Maybe they sought to end it by taking out one side of the coin. Maybe to avoid the next inevitable Long Winter. Killing off the Targaryans and the last of the royal blood bounded by the Dragons was also a part of the plan. Robert’s Rebellion was crafted heavily by the Citadel IMO, to rid the world of these magical beings and to put a normal good King on the throne(Or so they hoped)

Even with Dany and Viserys alive, it probably wasn’t a big deal. The objective was completed. Dragons are killed, Targs are off the throne and far away from us.

However, life finds a way and something happened that no one thought would happen, the birth of Dany’s three Dragons. I’m also sure that the Maesters have tried to off the Starks at certain times in the past (eliminate the bloodline – We may find out more in the Next Dunk and Egg story). Starks are survivors, always have been. (Ever since their ancestor sold their blood to the white walkers to survive the long winter…just my opinion.)

It would seem that the eternal struggle is inevitable. Sooner or later the Starks, representatives of the Blood/ Ice/ Darkness Magic and descendants of the First Men will meet the Targaryans, representatives of the Blood/Fire/Light Magic and descendants of the Valyrians in an apocalyptic battle that will end the generation. MOST PEOPLE WILL DIE.

The White Walkers are back to cover the world in Darkness again for another generation. The Dragons and their Fire Masters will right to extinguish the Darkness to continue another generation in the Light.

It seems like the blood magic and sacrifices that were forgotten are also making a strong come back. This battle seems cyclical, but I fear that if a balance is not found between these two opposing forces then it will be the end of the 7 kingdoms as well as the free cities.

There is something different this generation. No one has ever been born with both Valyrian and First Men blood. Jon Snow could very well have the fate of Westeros and Essos in his hands. Many of us have seen Jon as becoming leader of the Wildlings and the North in order to fight the White Walkers or the Southern Armies when/if they come. However, whether the White Walkers or the Dragons when, the world has no future. Why? If the White Walkers win, they will cover the world in Darkness in which most people will starve to death and the world will essentially start over with a hand full of people who’s only knowledge of the past world is only known through oral myths. If the Dragons win they will continue to grow larger, larger and larger. They will lead to destruction of Westeros by raining fire on the people below. Dany can barely control them. With the destruction of the opposition there will be nothing standing in their way of feasting, roasting and burning of everything in their sights. Either way, the world has no future, unless a balance can be made.

It is Dany’s job to bring the ‘fire’ to Westeros. She has to take R’hillor as her own to fully understand her destiny. She has to meet Jon Snow. It is Jon’s job to bring balance between the two sides. If Dany refuses to put down her army and Dragons, Jon will have to fight her with the White Walkers as a part of his army. (Dany foresees this at the Trident).

In the end however, they will have to unite or fall. Either that or GRRM wants Winter to come out on top in this one by defeating the Dragons

Very long read, I appreciate who gets through this. Obviously I had many assumptions in this, but let me know what yall think.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This was a long and very good read! I agree on a lot that you write. But i've only miss the ''job'' of the andels in this. They've must been something more than just people who upset the balance. They are not ice or fire but what is their role?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This was a long and very good read! I agree on a lot that you write. But i've only miss the ''job'' of the andels in this. They've must been something more than just people who upset the balance. They are not ice or fire but what is their role?

Agreed, I was really trying to figure that one out. It could be that the Andals represent the future in which magic is no longer necessary and that if the seasons are ever balanced than that showed be what everyone strives for. They seem to represent progression. After all it was thei steal weapons that beat the skinchanging first Men

Can we look forward to Bran vs Dany in the end, with Jon being able to find some balance?

I actually almost went that way with it. As of right now, Bran is more associated with the Magic of the Dark than Jon Snow is. It will probably become really obvious if we find out that Bran Stark is actually Bran the Builder...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Very good analysis.Can't really fault any of it.

I've got the feeling that human sacrifice is at the basis of the bad magic.Not much going on with the FM at the moment,unless Craster kicked things off.

I think the Andals represent modern,rational scientific thinking,mixed in with "invented" religion.Not necessarily good for the world either,or more kindly disposed towards life,human or other.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I like this theory, George R.R. Martin has constantly used our own expectations for what to expect from fantasy books to throw use curveballs throughout the series. The ultimate curve would be for us to assume there is one main protaganist vs. one primary antagonist. We assume that Dany and Jon are a primary protagonist (at least I have throughout the books), I have started to suspect that Bran might become the series antagonist. However, under your theory Dany and her reintroduction of dragons is just as dangerous as the Others bringing forth the long winter. And both may just be conflicting forces of nature as opposed to our concepts of good or evil.

Melisandre's character may be further proof that Martin is disagreeing with the notion that you are either good or evil. Using an unsympathetic character to espouse that notion is Martin's way of telling us, don't attribute anyone in my story as either completely good or evil. (even though Ramsay Bolton tests that theory somewhat).

This theory also dovetails into one of my theories. I think it is possible that Rhaegar (who has shown that he has an active desire to fulfill the prophecy of the prince who was promised), comes to a similar conclusion that you did, and the tournament at Harrenhal may have actually been a pretense to put him into contact with Lysanna for the purpose of producing an heir that would have the blood of the first men and Valyrians. This would explain his sudden conclusion that he suddenly need to learn to joust. (I also suspect that Arthur Dayne may have thrown his match with Rhaegar). This gives him the opportunity to crown Lysanna queen of the tournament and later seduce her.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This was a long and very good read! I agree on a lot that you write. But i've only miss the ''job'' of the andels in this. They've must been something more than just people who upset the balance. They are not ice or fire but what is their role?

The Andals provide the "modern" backdrop to the song. They brought civilization to Westeros: the Faith, the Common Tongue, commerce, chivalry, feudalism, politics, etc. Most of these concepts were "sexier" for the inhabitants of Westeros compared to the old gods, runes, and the more primitive practices of the First Men. Their Maesters provided healing and education without the overt pretenses of magic. When Aegon came with his dragons even he realized the value in conforming to the ways of the Andals to win the acceptance of the people by converting to the Faith, granting land to vassals, etc. If you aren't rooted in Ice/First Men or Fire/Valyrian, which would include the vast majority of Westerosi, then the world of the Andals provides a way for you to still be significant. Whichever side writes the last verse in the SOIAF will need to bear in mind the importance of everything the Andals have instilled in Westeros.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jorah Mormont is, to my recollection, the only character specifically referenced as an Andal. He's a Northman and a slaver. A slaver and a slave. He's of Westeros and Essos. He has dealings with the Starks, the Targs, the Lannisters, Varys and Illyrio, the free companies, the Dothraki and the Night's Watch.

I'd guess that Jorah is the key to understanding the Andals and whatever role they have to play.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Its like you typed down most of that I was thinking in my head... Nice! ^^

Not quite sure I agree about the WW/Stark connection. We don't know quite enough about it imo =/ Might as well have been the COTF who gave them powers. No point arguing this though, we'll just have to wait and see :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Another parallel that occurred to me: both Ice and Fire have their own versions of the undead, or prolonging human life. The Others command wights somehow (warging?) and the priests of R'hllor are able to resurrect those who've been killed (Dondarrion, Catelyn, Victarion?). The difference seems to be that fire quickens whereas ice merely preserves, however both methods seem somewhat unnatural/unholy when the concepts of the Faith are applied. Also, there are weapons of fire (dragonglass) that can be used against the Others...do we know of an equivalent ice weapon that might be useful against dragons or other manifestations of Fire?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jorah Mormont is, to my recollection, the only character specifically referenced as an Andal. He's a Northman and a slaver. A slaver and a slave. He's of Westeros and Essos. He has dealings with the Starks, the Targs, the Lannisters, Varys and Illyrio, the free companies, the Dothraki and the Night's Watch.

I'd guess that Jorah is the key to understanding the Andals and whatever role they have to play.

Or maybe the Dothraki just refer to Westeros people as Andals. In reality, he's probably more First Men than Andal. I mean, he's a bear for goodness sake.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can't find too much wrong with that theory.

Some minor additions worth noting:

Jon is an anomoly - Ice / Fire + Has a Direwolf too and became a brother of the NW.

GRRM mentions at the start of one of the books - "Thanks to... who made me put the Dragons in" > Can't help but think this might mean that Dany's dragons are irrelevant - Dany herself might be important - but the revenge of the Starks and the return of the Ice Dragon to bring justice back to the realm is the most important part and is the central plot-line me thinks.

It's not Ice vs Fire IMHO but Jon vs Jaime. Why... because Jaime is also an anomoly. He's made so many vows that they pretty much all cancel each other out. He is the Kingslayer and Jon is the true King. Once Jon has brought Winter and Justice to the realm he will need to undo the damage he has done. Intentionally or not. This is where Jaime comes in as i believe in the end - Jaime will change his cloak from white to black and serve the Ice Dragon his just deserts for desertion. The Ice Dragon vs the Sword of the Morning. But lets not forget - the Long Night lasted a 'generation' - enough time for Jon to marry Dany and Arya or whoever, have a couple of kids (and probs send them to opposite ends of the world to prevent interbreeding for another 8k yrs) and then die. If it was about war between Ice and Fire i'm sure George would have used the same language he does in the books and called it a Dance of Ice and Fire... a song to me implies love. (At the moment Jon only seems to truly love Arya, but he hasn't met Dany yet - and a blue rose often depicts love at first sight) - with Ygritte i got the impression he only rated her as a 5 or 6 and in hindsight was probably happy to not have her around complicating things. (Although he may be haunted by the line "you know nothing Jon Snow" for a while... as Ned was haunted by Lyannas words - thankfully both are cold enough just to get on with it!) :) - this is all just alternatives to consider and if at all correct it could mean Dany's dragons are going to be stolen and are simply there for the heroes to vanquish and earn a few man-points.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

oh my god this was awesome. very well written. the only difference I see is a Bran vs Dany standoff with Jon Snow being the balance.

Yeah, whether he's willing to or not, Bran appears to be firmly staked in the 'Ice' side.

The point that I find really interesting in the theory is a pretty simple one: the Others weren't exactly defeated in the Long Night, they were driven back. The tale of The Night's King, not long after the Long Night, clearly shows they still have a presence even after the famed War for Dawn. If there is no link between the First Men and the WW, what exactly was stopping the WW from laying the smackdown at the Wall (like will do now) and bringing winter yet again, so soon after the Long Night? The theory's interpretation of the Last Hero 'selling his blood' to save everyone is a simple answer to why the WW stayed back. I like it, but...

While that is a great explanation, I have one little problem with it. When the Last Hero 'sold his blood' to the WW, he and his descendants clearly gained a lot of power with the Skinchanging and greensight. So if the WW originally had dominion over the North, why grant these great powers to the very people they were killing?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for the feedback guys. It took forever to write, but it's not perfect.

Two changes.

1.) Bran is the representation of the Ice magic

2.) the wielders of Ive and the wielders of fire both had the ability to raise to dead. The Red Priest raise the dead as do the White Walkers ( or so we think)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×