Lyanna Stark Posted September 3, 2012 Author Share Posted September 3, 2012 Aren't you forgetting something in the case of Sansa? She's accused of or maybe even already tried for treason. LF reveals her and Cercei goes beserk (not that she won't do so anyway), and either sends assassins after Sansa or men to come pick her up.And even if Cercei isn't in power anymore (and we shouldn't rule this out), the Faith will most likely want to question her. And what if she implies LF?No LF can't move hasty on this one. You're right though that divorces aren't easily arranged though in Westeros, or so it seems.Cersei has been removed from power. Kevan was Lord Regent and he was murdered. Currently, the Tyrells hold Kings Landing. Lannister power days are over. Remember also that Cersei is still accused and needs to stand trial by the Faith. She has not been cleared. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
butterbumps! Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 Aren't you forgetting something in the case of Sansa? She's accused of or maybe even already tried for treason. LF reveals her and Cercei goes beserk (not that she won't do so anyway), and either sends assassins after Sansa or men to come pick her up.And even if Cercei isn't in power anymore (and we shouldn't rule this out), the Faith will most likely want to question her. And what if she implies LF?No LF can't move hasty on this one. You're right though that divorces aren't easily arranged though in Westeros, or so it seems.Oh I completely agree. I only meant that as soon as the marriage to Tyrion is annulled, LF and Sansa- as Sansa- solidify a whole new power base that will bring her protection. So even though there is a risk in revealing Sansa, this exists only to the extent that she is able to stand alone with her own powerbase, which will happen as soon as the marriage is dismantled. I think the trick in any case to to keep Sansa at a safe distance with enough power behind her to defend herself, which can only happen after the annulment and the marriage to Harry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pat Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 I'd take what you're saying more seriously without using "tard" but be that as it may.....Do we know for certain that ANY septon can provide an annulment? Perhaps this could be a clue that the annulment Tywin sought was not technically legal, as it could easily be the case that all annulments must go through the HS to be legally binding. If it was so easy as this, then why hasn't LF done this? Surely there are Septons around who would give an annulment; further, as LyannaStark points out, LF's time is running out, and it is in his best interest to have this marriage annulled ASAP. So I ask again, if it is truly so simple and works the same in our world, why pray tell has LF NOT pursued this course of action? I think that even if any old septon could overturn a marriage, perhaps it needs to be done by a more authoritative source to really hold ground and prevent anyone coming forth to protest it; it would be really tough for the Northmen and Riverlands crew to get behind Sansa if they had any doubt that a Lannister might use her to stake a claim on Winterfell.Yes any Catholic Priest can start you on you on your way to an anullment. If clear cut they are easy to do. George does not provide us with lists of how they work as compared to catholic ones. Or catholic ones in different time periods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 Marriage evolving into a sacrament of the catholic church was still going on during that time if i recall.this is a fully formed church and the pope is only the bishop of Rome that is how they dodge lawsuits and stuff.Depends on wether its 8xx or 13xx AD. I'm referring to 13xx AD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyanna Stark Posted September 3, 2012 Author Share Posted September 3, 2012 Yes any Catholic Priest can start you on you on your way to an anullment. If clear cut they are easy to do. George does not provide us with lists of how they work as compared to catholic ones. Or catholic ones in different time periods.May I remind you we are not discussing the Catholic church, we are discussing the Faith of Westeros. Which we do by using either information from the novels, or from So Spake Martin. Assuming that everything will be like the Cathlic church is to assume the Ironborn worships a literal Cthuluh. The drowned God is certainly inspired by Cthuluh, but it is not the literal Cthuluh. Just like the Faith of Westeros is not the literal Catholic Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pat Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 Ok, I think I understand your confusion and what you are trying to say. It seems as though you are comparing Westeros directly with our own modern world where we have comprehensive court systems in place to deal with marital issues. I should point out that every noble tard in our own medieval times having to request an annulment directly from the pope. Using Henry VIII as an example, he had to request annulments directly from the pope and it did not require him to travel long distances. However, it required that the church know where he was located in order for communication to take place. I suppose it is very possible that Sansa could request an annulment in writing but she would still have the same threat as if she requested in person. Return communication from the Sept can easily be monitored to discover her location. She is wanted for treason and regicide.George doesnt say she has to be present only that as Sansa she needs to request it. This marriage has valid reasons for annullment as did Tyshas. Henry the horrible had no reasons he was in valid marriages really he just seemed to be a prick. Any one with a valid reason for annullment has always gotten it. Only modern reasons like irreconcilable differences would be scoffed at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 George doesnt say she has to be present only that as Sansa she needs to request it. This marriage has valid reasons for annullment as did Tyshas. Henry the horrible had no reasons he was in valid marriages really he just seemed to be a prick. Any one with a valid reason for annullment has always gotten it. Only modern reasons like irreconcilable differences would be scoffed at.But Sansa would need to prove her valid reasons. Non-consummation is difficult to prove without her maidenhead being poked by septas in Baelors Sept. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Pepper Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 George doesnt say she has to be present only that as Sansa she needs to request it. This marriage has valid reasons for annullment as did Tyshas. Henry the horrible had no reasons he was in valid marriages really he just seemed to be a prick. Any one with a valid reason for annullment has always gotten it. Only modern reasons like irreconcilable differences would be scoffed at.Hello! I conceded with your point that there is a possibility to Martin did not mean that Sansa had to be physically present at the Sept of Baelor to request an annulment. No one is denying that there are valid reasons for Sansa to request an annulment. This thread is examining the theory that there is a possibility that a "Tysha" will be come forth to reveal her unannulled marriage to Tyrion thus rendering Sansa's marriage to him null and void which means that she doesn't need to request an annulment.Sheesh. Is September Reading Un-Awareness Month or something? Another one added to the ignore list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pat Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 May I remind you we are not discussing the Catholic church, we are discussing the Faith of Westeros. Which we do by using either information from the novels, or from So Spake Martin. Assuming that everything will be like the Cathlic church is to assume the Ironborn worships a literal Cthuluh. The drowned God is certainly inspired by Cthuluh, but it is not the literal Cthuluh. Just like the Faith of Westeros is not the literal Catholic Church.Who else does anullments. its reasonable to assume it follows a definition of annullment flowing from the church. The only thing an annullment does is allow you to remarry in a certain church. A divorce is fine for most everything else. If Sansa never wants to marry this whole crackpot theory is a waste of time. And the seven has a guy who speaks directly for the gods it has a lot of similaritys to a catholic type church.And no this is not about annullment this whole discussion is about a few lines from GRRM which are interpreted as a person needing to directly speak to the high septon when he never says or implys that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scipio Africanus Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 Cersei has been removed from power. Kevan was Lord Regent and he was murdered. Currently, the Tyrells hold Kings Landing. Lannister power days are over. Remember also that Cersei is still accused and needs to stand trial by the Faith. She has not been cleared.Does that automatically annul Cercei's accusations or any previous judgements against Sansa and Tyrion? Does the removal Cercei out of power have the effect that the Faith will think differently on the events of Joff's poisoning? Even if Cercei is found guilty, will it change the Faith's stance? And we shouldn't assume Cercei will be found guilty, for she has Bob Strong as her champion.Somehow I doubt that. And an accused Sansa either provides fodder for crows or a pawn to be used by said Tyrells (they have already used Sansa as a pawn).LF will need to tread lightly I honestly don't know how he's going to solve the problem unless the situation in KL turns into anarchy with the Faith fighting Tyrells, Aegon and the old gods know who else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brashcandy Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 George doesnt say she has to be present only that as Sansa she needs to request it. This marriage has valid reasons for annullment as did Tyshas. Henry the horrible had no reasons he was in valid marriages really he just seemed to be a prick. Any one with a valid reason for annullment has always gotten it. Only modern reasons like irreconcilable differences would be scoffed at.The point is that it's safer for Sansa not to request it given the other charges against her, and the risk in travelling to King's Landing to substantiate her claims that the marriage was not consummated. LF states clearly that he is only planning to reveal her as Sansa Stark on her wedding day, not before. Even if he could be certain of the result in taking her to KL, he cannot risk leaving the Vale in these uncertain times when he is still wary of some of the Lords Declarant and needs to keep a close watch over Sweetrobin. Sending Sansa with a Vale escort would also blow his cover before he's ready. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragnorak Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 Who else does anullments. its reasonable to assume it follows a definition of annullment flowing from the church. The only thing an annullment does is allow you to remarry in a certain church. A divorce is fine for most everything else. If Sansa never wants to marry this whole crackpot theory is a waste of time. And the seven has a guy who speaks directly for the gods it has a lot of similaritys to a catholic type church.And no this is not about annullment this whole discussion is about a few lines from GRRM which are interpreted as a person needing to directly speak to the high septon when he never says or implys that.Are you debating the legal technicalities behind the mechanism of obtaining an annulment in Westeros in and of itself, or do you also not see any reason that Sansa remaining as hidden as she currently is while gaining an annulment of any value? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pat Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 Hello! I conceded with your point that there is a possibility to Martin did not mean that Sansa had to be physically present at the Sept of Baelor to request an annulment. No one is denying that there are valid reasons for Sansa to request an annulment. This thread is examining the theory that there is a possibility that a "Tysha" will be come forth to reveal her unannulled marriage to Tyrion thus rendering Sansa's marriage to him null and void which means that she doesn't need to request an annulment.Sheesh. Is September Reading Un-Awareness Month or something? Another one added to the ignore list.Its not a theory its crackpot like Theon is AA. People are trying to find holes in Tyrions annullment that the story doesnt back up and are ultimately unrelated to Sansa completing her super obvious story arc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyanna Stark Posted September 3, 2012 Author Share Posted September 3, 2012 Who else does anullments. It doesn't matter who else does anullments in the real world. Westeros is not the real world. It has no bearings on Westeros. its reasonable to assume it follows a definition of annullment flowing from the church. The definition of the anullment has been stated by GRRM as per the quote above. One of the parties will need to apply for the anullment. That means either Tyrion or Sansa. As Sansa is the only one in Westeros, the only one who can do it out of the two is Sansa. But she is accused of regicide and it would be extremely dangerous for her to reveal her location without being certain of the outcome. There is no guarantee with the current High Septon that it would go her way.The only thing an annullment does is allow you to remarry in a certain church. As stated, you are talking real world, we are talking Westeros based on the information in the novels. A divorce is fine for most everything else. If Sansa never wants to marry this whole crackpot theory is a waste of time. Divorce does not exist in Westeros. And the seven has a guy who speaks directly for the gods it has a lot of similaritys to a catholic type church. Similarities != the same. See example with Cthuluh. Because something is inspired by something else, does not make it exactly the same.And no this is not about annullment this whole discussion is about a few lines from GRRM which are interpreted as a person needing to directly speak to the high septon when he never says or implys that.Read the quote again. The person or persons involved need to contact the High Septon themselves. How does the High Septon know that Sansa Stark really wrote him by raven if he gets a message from a "Sansa Stark"? He has no reason to trust that. He CANNOT know that it is actually her writing. Unless you can present a way that the High Septon can magically know that a Sansa Stark is writing him, then this complaint has no water. Unless Sansa presents herself in person, there is no way the High Septon can know Sansa is Sansa. Anyone can claim to be her. In fact, it's likely it is an imposter since there is already an imposter masquerading as Arya and quite a few people know that Arya is fake (LF, Jaime, Tywin knew, Roose certainly knows, some northmen undoubtedly know etc.)Its not a theory its crackpot like Theon is AA. People are trying to find holes in Tyrions annullment that the story doesnt back up and are ultimately unrelated to Sansa completing her super obvious story arc.If you want to label it as crackpot, at least get your basic facts straight when refuting is. As it stands, you are wrong on several accounts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyanna Stark Posted September 3, 2012 Author Share Posted September 3, 2012 Does that automatically annul Cercei's accusations or any previous judgements against Sansa and Tyrion? Does the removal Cercei out of power have the effect that the Faith will think differently on the events of Joff's poisoning? Even if Cercei is found guilty, will it change the Faith's stance? And we shouldn't assume Cercei will be found guilty, for she has Bob Strong as her champion. The Faith's stance on what? The regicide? The anullment? The Faith currently has no vested interest in Tyrion and Sansa marriage, apart from the fact that the High Septon was upset that the Lannister regime had Ned Stark executed on the steps of Baelor's Sept (hence a negative stance towards the Lannisters). LF will need to tread lightly I honestly don't know how he's going to solve the problem unless the situation in KL turns into anarchy with the Faith fighting Tyrells, Aegon and the old gods know who else.Presenting a Tysha and accusing Tyrion of being a bigamist smoothly circumvents all the problems with the Tyrells and other factions in Kings Landing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pat Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 The point is that it's safer for Sansa not to request it given the other charges against her, and the risk in travelling to King's Landing to substantiate her claims that the marriage was not consummated. LF states clearly that he is only planning to reveal her as Sansa Stark on her wedding day, not before. Even if he could be certain of the result in taking her to KL, he cannot risk leaving the Vale in these uncertain times when he is still wary of some of the Lords Declarant and needs to keep a close watch over Sweetrobin. Sending Sansa with a Vale escort would also blow his cover before he's ready.This is it and im out of thisSansa is the daughter of a High Lord her word would suffice. If not some septas word would probably do the High septon never inspected Margery personally. And she was only subjected to that due to being accused by a Kettleblack. Originally a Vow was all that was needed to prove her first marriage was unconsummated. Tyrions originalnnullment was after consummation so i doupt its even a problem. Nonconsummation just makes it even easier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyanna Stark Posted September 3, 2012 Author Share Posted September 3, 2012 This is it and im out of thisSansa is the daughter of a High Lord her word would suffice. If not some septas word would probably do the High septon never inspected Margery personally. And she was only subjected to that due to being accused by a Kettleblack. Originally a Vow was all that was needed to prove her first marriage was unconsummated. Tyrions originalnnullment was after consummation so i doupt its even a problem. Nonconsummation just makes it even easier.How does the High Septon know that Random Person sending him a letter via raven really is Sansa Stark? Does he have Magic Abilities to Just Know Stuff? Unless Sansa goes to Kings Landing in person, the High Septon has no way of knowing. Whether her word alone will be enough once she is there, nobody can tell, but why risk all that?Brining out a "Tysha" solves this issue without it ever appearing in the first place, and LF can go on with his plan to reveal Sansa on her wedding day to Harry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scipio Africanus Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 The Faith's stance on what? The regicide? The anullment? The Faith currently has no vested interest in Tyrion and Sansa marriage, apart from the fact that the High Septon was upset that the Lannister regime had Ned Stark executed on the steps of Baelor's Sept (hence a negative stance towards the Lannisters).Regicide yes. I'm concerned the Faith doesn't love house Stark that much that they will overlook Sansa's "crimes". But honestly I don't recall the Faith stance on the regicide too clearly.I've now read the OP, I forgot that LF knew about Tyrion's marriage. Yes, I doubt LF needs even to mention Sansa in detail or bring forth Sansa if he can produce a Tysha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deleted01 Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 Amidst all the arguing I'm sure there was an answer somewhere, but I'll ask anyway - is it 100% stated that Sansa must request an annulment from the High Septon in person? I presume this goes for Tyrion too. I'm just wondering if another can do it for her, like LF as her "guardian", or if she can indeed do it by ravenmail ;)I personally like this theory. I've always wondered when Tysha would show up, and I wouldn't be the slightest bit surprised if LF had the real Tysha hidden up his sleeve. We may not always agree on things Lyanna Stark, but you do come up with some great theories :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pat Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 If you want to label it as crackpot, at least get your basic facts straight when refuting is. As it stands, you are wrong on several accounts.Im not refuting anything its based on an assumption that Tyrion has a fake annullment with no text making it crackpot.Why did i post in a Sansa Thread i gotta go lay down Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.