An answer to "Where do whores go?" - Tysha, Littlefinger, Tyrion

[a free shadow]

The idea sounds good.

However, if a woman comes forward in Westeros and demands to be aknowledged as a wife of a kingslayer, isn't she automatically doomed? Does the High Septon even look at her case?

[Bright Blue Eyes]

The idea sounds good.

However, if a woman comes forward in Westeros and demands to be aknowledged as a wife of a kingslayer, isn't she automatically doomed? Does the High Septon even look at her case?

No. She wouldn't inherit anything from her husband because his possessions would be confiscated, and she would be a prime suspct for companionship in the treason if she had any contact with him, but Tysha need not care about these problems.

[NotSoSilentSister]

The idea sounds good.

However, if a woman comes forward in Westeros and demands to be aknowledged as a wife of a kingslayer, isn't she automatically doomed? Does the High Septon even look at her case?

Sansa might be, because she was present at the time of the murder and Cersei implicated her in it. But why would Tysha be implicated? She can probably prove that she was nowhere near King's Landing at the time.

[a free shadow]

Sansa might be, because she was present at the time of the murder and Cersei implicated her in it. But why would Tysha be implicated? She can probably prove that she was nowhere near King's Landing at the time.

With Littlefinger's help, I bet she could prove she was serving as a black brother all the time. The problem is that even her request to be associated with the kingslayer would be deemed a treason.

Unless (thinking Littlefingerish here) she would come forward and demand that marriage to be absolved. To be absolved, it should be acknowledged, so Sansa's marriage would be absolved too :smug:

[Pellaeon]

You are arguing from a catholic perspective. There is nothing to suggest that "underage" in itself is a threat to the validity of the marriage. In that case, we have several cases where the marriage would not be valid:

* Daenerys - Khal Drogo: Dany was underage

* Tyrek - Ermesande Hayford: Ermesande is what? Three?

* fake!Arya - Ramsay Bolton: Arya is underage

and lastly: Tyrion - Sansa Stark: Sansa was underage at the time of the wedding, making it automatically void.

They are all underage yes, but they married with the permission of their leagal guardian

Danys was Viseris, Sansas fakeAryas and Ermesandes was the iron throne

[Winter's Knight]

They are all underage yes, but they married with the permission of their leagal guardian

Danys was Viseris, Sansas fakeAryas and Ermesandes was the iron throne

Alys Karstark married without her guardian's permission.

[NotSoSilentSister]

Unless (thinking Littlefingerish here) she would come forward and demand that marriage to be absolved.

I took that as a given, I mean that's what annulment is all about. You do no longer want to be associated with that person.

[a free shadow]

I took that as a given, I mean that's what annulment is all about. You do no longer want to be associated with that person.

I am talking about Tysha (fake or not). She would ask for her own marriage with Tyrion to be absolved.

[NotSoSilentSister]

Alys Karstark married without her guardian's permission.

Which is why it will probably be contested.

But Jon apparently thinks they might just get away with it, which indicates that such technicalities might not matter all that much, if circumstances are otherwise favorable.

[NotSoSilentSister]

I am talking about Tysha (fake or not). She would ask for her own marriage with Tyrion to be absolved.

Of course. We seem to be talking past each other. I always assumed that Tysha would ask for the annulment of her own marriage. It only occured to me now that you apparently considered the possiblity she might ask for Sansa's.

[a free shadow]

Of course. We seem to be talking past each other. I always assumed that Tysha would ask for the annulment of her own marriage. It only occured to me now that you apparently considered the possiblity she might ask for Sansa's.

Well, I was operating on the OP's "Tyrion comes back in Westeros and finds that Tysha still considers them married". :D So the OP seemed to suggest Tysha or "Tysha" will want to be acknowledged and keep it that way.

[NotSoSilentSister]

Well, I was operating on the OP's "Tyrion comes back in Westeros and finds that Tysha still considers them married". :D

A question of timing. He could come back when she has already started the process, before the High Sparrow pronounces his decision.

But, to be honest, I simply overread that.

About the "never bring a whore to Casterly Rock" as forshadowing for Tysha becoming the Lady of Casterly Rock business - I don't like that anyway, because Tysha most probably wasn't a whore and there's no reason to assume she is one now. It's also quite likely that Tywin did indeed have her killed and that the Tysha LF would produce would be fake.

[Natalie_S]

It's all a "could be reason for an annullment", but "could be" is not "is", and one way or another, you need to request the annullment from the High Septon to receive annullment, something that has not happened as far as we know. Tyrion himselfs says that he is still married to Tysha, for gods sake!

Tyrion doesn't, he just thinks of her as "my wife" because he loves her and because he did marry her, but he never thinks stuff like "oh this means we are still legally married"or "I wonder what that makes of the annullment". He never even thinks about it.

Truth is, we don't know almost anything about marriage annullment rules in Westeros, and that's one of the reasons I believe that if GRRM made Tyrion and Sansa's marriage set aside because the previous annullment wasn't properly done, it would be lame and just a plot escamotage ("oh look there's this convenient rule I never mentioned in 5 books...").

And that wouldn't be his style at all.

[brashcandy]

Truth is, we don't know almost anything about marriage annullment rules in Westeros, and that's one of the reasons I believe that if GRRM made Tyrion and Sansa's marriage set aside because the previous annullment wasn't properly done, it would be lame and just a plot escamotage ("oh look there's this convenient rule I never mentioned in 5 books...").

And that wouldn't be his style at all.

Wouldn't the fact that we don't know much about marriage annulment rules actually mean that GRRM could have some leverage here in crafting the kind of solution Lyanna's theory details?

[Dr. Pepper]

Actually I said that they needed witnesses and a sober Septon.

The underage part is important for the request of annullment, that, I believe, can be done by a parent too.

The thing is that Martin hasn't said this. His statement makes no mention of needing a guardian to request an annulment for an underage ward or child. He specifically says that Sansa has to be the one to request it. He knows Sansa is underage.

[Pellaeon]

The thing is that Martin hasn't said this. His statement makes no mention of needing a guardian to request an annulment for an underage ward or child. He specifically says that Sansa has to be the one to request it. He knows Sansa is underage.

If he always explains the exact procedure with all special cases concerning the story, we wouldn't need this forum

[brashcandy]

If he always explains the exact procedure with all special cases concerning the story, we wouldn't need this forum

Again:

Tigers14: btw, can a marriage be annulled without both parties present? and without sansa revealing who she really is?

GeoRR: no one needs to be present to annul a marriage

Tigers14: how?

GeoRR: but Sansa would need to request it

Tigers14: as sansa?

GeoRR: Well, why would a High Septon consider a request from anyone but the parties involved?

He's quite specific here. Sansa,or the other party involved would need to request it. If there was a caveat relating to her being underage, it would have been easy to simply state that a guardian could do so on her behalf.

[Dr. Pepper]

If he always explains the exact procedure with all special cases concerning the story, we wouldn't need this forum

I'm not sure what you mean. Are you saying that the SSM's cannot be taken as fact? That Martin lies to his readers? The Citadel on this sight seems to disagree. SSM's are considered semi-canon. Meaning it's not something found in the books but we can accept what Martin says about characters as accurate. Unless he changes his mind, but I don't know of a single instance where he has changed his mind after making a statement that ends up in an SSM, excluding the number of books and publishing timelines, course.

[The Sunset King]

This theory offers a plausible scenario as to why LF has never considered Tyrion a real problem for his schemes. I tend to think that, although LF thought there was a good chance that Tyrion would die, he thought out several moves ahead and never totally banked on this idea. Whatever plan LF had to circumvent and eliminate the marriage Tywin arranged, it probably was set in motion as soon as LF heard of that marriage.

There will likely be several twists and turns in the upcoming events in the Vale, however the Tyrion marriage problem is probably one that LF will not have an enormous level of difficulty in resolving. There are worse threats to his plans.

At some point, the High Septon is likely to delve deeper and deeper into anti-Lannister hostility. If he becomes interested in Sansa, it may be mainly so as to find more damaging information on the Lannisters rather than any interest in finding who killed Joffrey (unless the someone very quickly try to use that against the Tyrells soon).

[Ragnorak]

Actually Luwyn questions it.

The Manderly relatives of Lady Hornwood didn't accept it either back then, that's why Manderly and Bolton men were fighting for control of the Hornwood lands.

Luwin is questioning the Will, not the marriage. Same with the Manderlys. Without a child heir by Lady Hornwood to lay claim to the lands the marriage in and of itself does not make Ramsay the rightful heir.