An answer to "Where do whores go?" - Tysha, Littlefinger, Tyrion

[The Sunset King]

An important difference to note here is the mentality of the sparrows vs that of the nobility. The nobles and highest level lords tend to be jealous of political power, prone to scheming, and suspicious of the actions of other such leaders. The sparrows, and the septons aligned with them, by constrast, worry much more about making sure actions are what they consider to be religiously correct and moral.

If annulment was in the hands or someone like the Hand of the realm or one of the Tyrells/Lannisters/etc., they would immediately look for ulterior motives and political ramifications. However, the current High Septon takes religious rituals and morality very seriously. To him, a fake Tysha coming might seem primarily about a wronged women seeking to escape connection to someone to whom there is no point in being connected anymore. This HS is much more likely to take such a person seriously than purely political elites would. If LF does want to pull off this plan, he should tell the fake Tysha to claim that she wants to escape a sinful situation where she is married to a man who is accused of various crimes and who is unlikely to ever return to her. By focusing on the perceived dangers to her soul if she attempts to remarry without righting the situation, an imposter might successfully redirect the HS's attention toward the religious/moral aspect of the problem. He already has indicated a dislike for the behavior of the Lannister house.

LF presumably would pay the fake Tysha a large amount of money to go through with this scheme.

Whether or not LF uses a fake Tysha, I suspect that the Tyrion marriage will not be a huge obstacle to him; he probably has already devised some plan to ensure that it is not going to be a constant impediment to progress. However, there are several other dangers to LF that might lead to his undoing in the future.

[Dr. Pepper]

Oh you sweet summer child.

Oh dear, I was made blind and naive by the songs of female agency and love-ships. I blame it all entirely on you, brash, 3k, and all the other sansanistas.

P.S. was just discussing with someone that the board is really in need of a nedbert-esque thread. Not necessarily a shipping thread, but the fuzzy happy vibes that thread gave off. Something that makes us feel like we are walking on rainbow-colored unicorns who breathe the laughing gas (or the hash, whatever). Something non-divisive, incredibly laugh-inducing, and the possibility to becoming thoroughly thought-provoking and investigative. Do you have one of those types of threads in your arsenal?

[Winter's Knight]

Oh dear, I was made blind and naive by the songs of female agency and love-ships. I blame it all entirely on you, brash, 3k, and all the other sansanistas.

P.S. was just discussing with someone that the board is really in need of a nedbert-esque thread. Not necessarily a shipping thread, but the fuzzy happy vibes that thread gave off. Something that makes us feel like we are walking on rainbow-colored unicorns who breathe the laughing gas (or the hash, whatever). Something non-divisive, incredibly laugh-inducing, and the possibility to becoming thoroughly thought-provoking and investigative. Do you have one of those types of threads in your arsenal?

:laugh:

A Quest is it? I'm on it!

[Lyanna Stark]

If annulment was in the hands or someone like the Hand of the realm or one of the Tyrells/Lannisters/etc., they would immediately look for ulterior motives and political ramifications. However, the current High Septon takes religious rituals and morality very seriously. To him, a fake Tysha coming might seem primarily about a wronged women seeking to escape connection to someone to whom there is no point in being connected anymore. This HS is much more likely to take such a person seriously than purely political elites would. If LF does want to pull off this plan, he should tell the fake Tysha to claim that she wants to escape a sinful situation where she is married to a man who is accused of various crimes and who is unlikely to ever return to her. By focusing on the perceived dangers to her soul if she attempts to remarry without righting the situation, an imposter might successfully redirect the HS's attention toward the religious/moral aspect of the problem. He already has indicated a dislike for the behavior of the Lannister house.

Indeed. The current High Septon is not like the previous high septons. He takes his faith extremely seriously and he has great support by the small folk (in fact, he got the position because of the sparrows supporting him). His views are far more likely to align with the smallfolk than with the nobility, and Tysha was a crofters daughter, cruelly used by the rich and powerful Lannisters. I think it's safe to say that will be a point in her favour (regardless of whether she is real or fake).

Further, the Faith is upset the Lannisters executed Ned Stark on the steps of Baelor's Sept and defiled it. Then we have the kinslaying, kingslaying Tyrion and Cersei Lannister, who is even accused of deicide in that she had the previous High Septon murdered. I don't think the Faith will forget the Lannister transgressions that quickly. In fact, this may be a reason why they may be more inclined to support fake!Aegon, should he make it to Kings Landing.

LF presumably would pay the fake Tysha a large amount of money to go through with this scheme.

Whether or not LF uses a fake Tysha, I suspect that the Tyrion marriage will not be a huge obstacle to him; he probably has already devised some plan to ensure that it is not going to be a constant impediment to progress. However, there are several other dangers to LF that might lead to his undoing in the future.

Littlefinger seems curiously unbothered by it in AFFC, despite his scheming to having Tyrion accused of Joffrey's murder and killed not working. In fact, in the last AFFC chapter we see him positively glowing with happiness and glee, and he's even a bit drunk, which he rarely is otherwise. Sansa normally states his breath smells like mint, but in the last chapter she mentions that he smells of cloves and nutmeg of spiced wine. Sounds a bit like a celebratory drink to me.

[Scipio Africanus]

Indeed. The current High Septon is not like the previous high septons. He takes his faith extremely seriously and he has great support by the small folk (in fact, he got the position because of the sparrows supporting him). His views are far more likely to align with the smallfolk than with the nobility, and Tysha was a crofters daughter, cruelly used by the rich and powerful Lannisters. I think it's safe to say that will be a point in her favour (regardless of whether she is real or fake).

Slightly unrelated note. Everybody seems to be under the impression that some form of class warfare will arrise. I'm not so sure Westeros is that advanced yet. The smallfolk really have no power, little rights and from what I've seen, little education. How big the "middle" class is (crafters, artisans, merchants) I don't know. Most of Westeros society seems rural and agriculture based. I somehow doubt the smallfolk could organize themselves into a larger movement with the objective of obtaining more rights for themselves. In other words I highly doubt we have another French revolution on our hands here.

Peasant uprisings occured during medieval times in Europe as well, but this wasn't based on the ideas of Marx, that working classes rose up against their elites. Usually it was caused by famines coupled by high taxation. Sometimes religion was the cause of an uprising but usually it was coupled by the aforementioned reasons.

If there is to be an uprising in Westeros, I suppose it would be the Faith (the most learned people after nobility) organizing the smallfolk. But what would their objective be? More rights for the smallfolk seems unlikely to me, a religious faction usually wants to spread their own religion. And usually it is done by pressuring/persuading elites to adopt/spread their religion.

One final thought. I'm not sure how fanatical the majority of Westeros is to the Faith. The Iron Isles and the North / Beyond the Wall have different religions entirely. I don't really get the impression that religion for most people in Westeros is experienced like our Earth religions. So what are the odds of the High Septon succesfully calling a "crusade/jihad"? Yes the sparrows have been multiplying but that doesn't mean the majority of Westeros is ready for a religious revolution.

[Winter's Knight]

Slightly unrelated note. Everybody seems to be under the impression that some form of class warfare will arrise. I'm not so sure Westeros is that advanced yet. The smallfolk really have no power, little rights and from what I've seen, little education. How big the "middle" class is (crafters, artisans, merchants) I don't know. Most of Westeros society seems rural and agriculture based. I somehow doubt the smallfolk could organize themselves into a larger movement with the objective of obtaining more rights for themselves. In other words I highly doubt we have another French revolution on our hands here.

Peasant uprisings occured during medieval times in Europe as well, but this wasn't based on the ideas of Marx, that working classes rose up against their elites. Usually it was caused by famines coupled by high taxation. Sometimes religion was the cause of an uprising but usually it was coupled by the aforementioned reasons.

If there is to be an uprising in Westeros, I suppose it would be the Faith (the most learned people after nobility) organizing the smallfolk. But what would their objective be? More rights for the smallfolk seems unlikely to me, a religious faction usually wants to spread their own religion. And usually it is done by pressuring/persuading elites to adopt/spread their religion.

One final thought. I'm not sure how fanatical the majority of Westeros is to the Faith. The Iron Isles and the North / Beyond the Wall have different religions entirely. I don't really get the impression that religion for most people in Westeros is experienced like our Earth religions. So what are the odds of the High Septon succesfully calling a "crusade/jihad"? Yes the sparrows have been multiplying but that doesn't mean the majority of Westeros is ready for a religious revolution.

Westoros is ripe for a religious revolution: the last fifteen odd years have seen two country wide civil wars along with the Greyjoy rebellion, food stocks are low, two of the great houses have been tainted-the Lannisters with licentiousness, the Starks with treason, the Baratheons have all but died out, a famine seems very likely and a long winter is coming.

In such times, people will turn to any source of comfort available.

[Scipio Africanus]

Westoros is ripe for a religious revolution: the last fifteen odd years have seen two country wide civil wars along with the Greyjoy rebellion, food stocks are low, two of the great houses have been tainted-the Lannisters with licentiousness, the Starks with treason, the Baratheons have all but died out, a famine seems very likely and a long winter is coming.

In such times, people will turn to any source of comfort available.

Well yes a peasant uprising is most certainly possible (we've already seen the KL riots) but I was talking about some form of real revolution. An uprising is easy to beat down, a revolution a lot less so. But the revolution would require a large part of society rebelling / counter-rebelling, and I wonder if the Faith could (or want to) put forth such forces in motion.

[Lyanna Stark]

I didn't even realize there was anyone who is a firm supporter of the Tyrion/Sansa match. I'm being honest here, not at all snarky. I knew that there are some who like it because they like it for one reason or another, but not anyone who was against the two unhappy partners having the marriage dissolved. Learn something new.

Tysha or fake!Tysha coming forward will not affect any "romantic" outcome for Sansa though as the only thing it means is that she will be

1. free to marry someone of her own choosing (which means that theoretically she could choose Tyrion)

2. LF will try and force her into the Harry the Heir marriage, which means Sansa will need to act in order to "save" herself from yet another arranged marriage in which she has no say.

Clutching at straws like "Varys would not allow it" or "Myranda Royce is Varys' spy" is odd considering, since Varys has no real power at the moment as he is in hiding, and even if he did, why would he bother with the Tysha thing? Tyrion's marriage concerns are of little meaning to him now when Aegon's reign is near (according to Varys and Illyrio anyway).

Sansa having to getting herself out of yet another marriage forced upon her fits with her arc as well, as it's all about deconstructing the Lady role with its main duty of being a faithful wife to whichever husband is chosen for you. As of AFFC, Sansa is quietly rebelling against this, and she even meant to tell Lysa she would refuse to marry Sweetrobin in ASOS. She needs to move from an observer and an analyst role to an active role, so it makes sense for her to have to solve the problem of being forced into marriage once more so she can stop being treated like a pawn and instead take charge of her destiny (which will then be the first step of taking charge of whatever needs to be done with Winterfell on behalf of the Starks).

[Devaki Khanna]

Are you even reading the OP? I'm not sure what you are missing with the OP or the books. The OP clearly states that Sansa will not have to come forward in order for her marriage to be annulled. The only person that will need to come for is a "Tysha". All "Tysha" has to do is go to the High Septon and reveal her marriage to Tyrion, citing useful facts that can be corroborated in order to add truth to her story. While this is going on, Sansa is still safely seated at the Gates of the Moon.

The OP also points out that in the books, the scions of House Lannisters have lost all power. Tywin and Kevan are dead, Cersei has been stripped of power, Tyrion is attainted and Jaime is missing. The OP also refers to the part in the books where Littlefinger reveals his plan to marry Sansa to Harry the Heir and Littlefinger's total disregard towards Sansa's current marriage to Tyrion. This strongly implies that it's something LF has already worked out (i.e. setting the Tysha plan in motion). LF has also stated quite clearly that he intends to unveil that bastard Alayne as Sansa Stark. Does this put Littlefinger in a tenuous position with the throne? Probably yes but what can the throne really do about it. Keep in mind that throughout the books, the Vale is constantly referred to as a highly strategic and defensible location with a full retinue of soldiers who have been untouched by the war. Also keep in mind that the Vale is repeatedly noted as being moved to side with the Northern cause. Unveiling Sansa gives LF great currency in the Vale. He would then be sitting in the safest position in Westeros.

Let me put it very simple to you. Without Tysha coming forward, Sansa would have to reveal herself and risk captivity.

If you can't grasp that fact, I suggest you read the five books, and the rules about consummation to make a marriage legal that is mentioned in most of them. Tyrion and Tysha's marriage was consummated, which makes it legal. Their legal marriage makes Sansa's marriage to Tyrion null and void. The only way for Sansa's marriage to be officially null and void is for a "Tysha" to come forward and reveal her previous consummated marriage to Tyrion.

In ASoS, when Tyrion and Sansa are left in their room after the wedding, Sansa asks him about his first wife. Of course, Tyrion tries to brush it off--it is a painful memory for him--but, at the end of the scene, Sansa makes it quite obvious that she will have nothing to do with him. She would have known about the wedding--just because no one was talking to her does not mean that she wasn't listening--and IMHO she tried to get some information from him on the status of her marriage to him vis-a-vis his last marriage.

[Devaki Khanna]

I am still not sure about that, I would chek it tonight, i also don't have my copy of the book with me. Still I can't believe Petyr slept with Lysa in KG. As I recall the first time the had sex was some kind of accident, he thinking that she is Catlyn, may be I am wrong.... I don't believe that he slept with her willingly :D :D before they married (ohhh God marriage from hell)

But it would be cool If he kills his own son. How would he react, what he will think. Very interesting indeed.

I recall the speech in Sansa's POV in ASoS when Lysa says she will scream and she further says she wants to make a brother or sister for Sweetrobin. Note--brother or sister--not half-brother or half-sister. Again, she might not have spent much time in the Vale--Jon Arryn became the Hand of the King soon after their marriage. She did ensure that Littlefinger got a job in the Gulltown customs house--when his returns were higher than those of other customs officers, she persuaded Jon Arryn to bring him to court. I'm not certain whether this was before or after Sweetrobin was born--he's a year younger than Bran.

[Ragnorak]

Musings on Tysha

Tysha has a certain value for anyone who thinks they may have need to act against the Lannisters one day. It would be reasonable to assume that Tywin would one day make a match for Tyrion and that the other party would be less than thrilled. Throwing Tysha into the mix and laying the possibility of bastard grandchildren at some lords feet is a nice card to hold. Varys kept track of Robert's bastards the best he could (found 8 out of 16) and LF stashed Jeyne away just in case. Strange things happen in this unpredictable life and the wiser among us keep insurance and safety nets.

Regardless of how unlikely any future use for her may be, consider the downside. Any lord or agent would need to deprive themselves of the vast resources to employ an orphaned crofter's daughter as a seamstress or a maid. Not exactly a taxing or high risk proposition.

If Tysha was pregnant that value increases exponentially. Who wouldn't pay a maid and shelter her child to have a spare heir to Casterly Rock in the closet? Once Jaime joins the KG that makes Tysha's child the heir after Tyrion-- second in line for the Rock. Not a bad card to hold for paying a seamstress you need around anyway. One need not believe that child will ever rule Casterly Rock, just the claim is of such potential value down the road and the cost of holding the card so little that it is easy to believe someone may already be sheltering her. LF isn't a player at this point so it couldn't be him (at least initially) and Varys may not be in KL yet.

LF was planning on starting a Stark vs Lannister war. He didn't care who won. When he offers Ned advice during the Gold Cloak conversation, LF is still willing to betray the Lannisters if he thinks Ned will be a better deal. He can manipulate Ned through Lysa via Cat and keep his hands clean so a Stark victory has its benefits. Since LF knew he was starting a war before the beginning of GoT, he knew one possible desirable was the fall of House Lannister, and he knew of Tyrion's marriage to Tysha, why wouldn't he track down Tysha just in case?

[Lummel]

...In the last chapter in AFFC, LF has arranged for Sansa to marry Harry the Heir, but for the marriage to happen, he needs Sansa's old marriage to Tyrion to be removed. Littlefinger was coldly banking on Tyrion dying after Joffrey's poisoning, but Tyrion hasn't died, so LF will need a shortcut to get Sansa's marriage annulled. LF strangely does not seem very worried about this fact. Which is odd considering how severe and devout the current High Septon is...

You know an easier alternative is that Littlefinger isn't serious about having Sansa marry Harry...

We don't actually know that he has arranged for Sansa to marry Harry, we only know that Littlefinger has told Sansa that he has arranged for her to marry Harry.

[NotSoSilentSister]

Good observations. I still think it will have to be a fake Tysha though.

Musings on Tysha

Tysha has a certain value for anyone who thinks they may have need to act against the Lannisters one day. It would be reasonable to assume that Tywin would one day make a match for Tyrion and that the other party would be less than thrilled. Throwing Tysha into the mix and laying the possibility of bastard grandchildren at some lords feet is a nice card to hold.

Which is why Tywin probably had her killed. It's possible that he thought that she was traumatized enough after the gang-rape to stay away from the Lannisters forever, but why take the risk?

[NotSoSilentSister]

You know an easier alternative is that Littlefinger isn't serious about having Sansa marry Harry...

That may well be, but surely he will eventually want to marry her to someone - and be that himself. An annulment of the marriage to Tyrion is almost certainly an integral part of his plans.

[brashcandy]

In ASoS, when Tyrion and Sansa are left in their room after the wedding, Sansa asks him about his first wife. Of course, Tyrion tries to brush it off--it is a painful memory for him--but, at the end of the scene, Sansa makes it quite obvious that she will have nothing to do with him. She would have known about the wedding--just because no one was talking to her does not mean that she wasn't listening--and IMHO she tried to get some information from him on the status of her marriage to him vis-a-vis his last marriage.

She didn't know about the wedding and I don't think she was asking to to get any info about her own marriage to him. She was curious and wanted to know some what had happened, but then Tyrion proceeds to tell her this awful, confusing snippet and that's that.

You know an easier alternative is that Littlefinger isn't serious about having Sansa marry Harry...

We don't actually know that he has arranged for Sansa to marry Harry, we only know that Littlefinger has told Sansa that he has arranged for her to marry Harry.

I think Lyanna holds that assumption as well, but it still doesn't mean that he won't need her marriage annulled.

[Lummel]

Don't know. If he has sex with her, if she has children by him and is not married then Sansa would be tied as tightly into dependence on Littlefinger as could be.

It depends on if you view Littlefinger as a far seeing political mover and shaker or as someone eager to get into Sansa's underwear.

[Scipio Africanus]

You know an easier alternative is that Littlefinger isn't serious about having Sansa marry Harry...

We don't actually know that he has arranged for Sansa to marry Harry, we only know that Littlefinger has told Sansa that he has arranged for her to marry Harry.

1) What else is he going to do with Sansa. How else is he going to grab power in the Vale? Or even the Riverlands? Right now he has an empty title in the Riverlands, a cursed castle, and a very shaky position as a guardian to a sickly child of his recently deceased wife.

2) He can't marry "Alayne". He would still need to reveal Sansa.

Unless LF is going to do something unexpected and do stuff we now have no info on, he still isn't in a great position of power.

The question of getting into Sansa's pants is probably seperate from LF's ambitions. He might want to do both. So he needs a plan to consolidate power and fast.

[brashcandy]

Don't know. If he has sex with her, if she has children by him and is not married then Sansa would be tied as tightly into dependence on Littlefinger as could be.

It depends on if you view Littlefinger as a far seeing political mover and shaker or as someone eager to get into Sansa's underwear.

So far he's had plenty of opportunities to take advantage of her, but hasn't done so. I think he's building up the seduction, and wants Sansa to come to him, but he's definitely interested in playing the game and right now Sansa is his prime piece. He's going to be making moves and trying to further his successes.

[Natalie_S]

LF was planning on starting a Stark vs Lannister war. He didn't care who won. When he offers Ned advice during the Gold Cloak conversation, LF is still willing to betray the Lannisters if he thinks Ned will be a better deal. He can manipulate Ned through Lysa via Cat and keep his hands clean so a Stark victory has its benefits. Since LF knew he was starting a war before the beginning of GoT, he knew one possible desirable was the fall of House Lannister, and he knew of Tyrion's marriage to Tysha, why wouldn't he track down Tysha just in case?

I see your point, but aren't we overrating LF a bit too much?

He was around 10, and living in the Vale, when the marriage happened.

If she changed her name and moved to the Free Cities, it's nearly impossible for him to find her.

[Ragnorak]

Good observations. I still think it will have to be a fake Tysha though.

Which is why Tywin probably had her killed. It's possible that he thought that she was traumatized enough after the gang-rape to stay away from the Lannisters forever, but why take the risk?

I would hardly be shocked at Tywin killing her. He didn't kill his father's mistress though and he had far more personal animosity for her. He seemed more focused on Tyrion in the whole affair and Tysha was just an object to him. I can see Tywin's arrogance blinding him to a potential pregnant Tysha leading to a threatening heir situation. I'm not so much advocating it as trying to weigh how realistic of a possibility it might be for the real Tysha to be used.

ETA

@Natalie_S

LF's network as Master of Coin gives him access to people who work the ports and gossip is traded as much as any other commodity. Tyrion's marriage to Sansa would be a perfect time to engage in Tysha gossip without drawing any attention. Not claiming it is a given just that the more I look at it the more I see reasonable scenarios where it could happen.