An answer to "Where do whores go?" - Tysha, Littlefinger, Tyrion

[Lady Winter Rose]

also believe that there were enough reasons that the marriage wasn't valid at first, both were underage and married without the permission of their legal guardian, the septon as drunk, there were no witnesses and she was a common girl (misalliance).

Tyrion's marriage with Tysha was annulled, I don't think there's any doubt about that.

We don't know much about the Faith, but if it's based on the Catholic Church (which sounds legit since there are many parallels, like the lack of consummation being a reason for annullment) there are some reason why the marriage can be considered null:

1) The couple was in clandestinity, and therefore not adherring to canon law

2) there were no witnesses

3) the Septon was drunk and therefore not able to give a valid blessing on the marriage

Tywin is a part involved, because Tyrion was underage!

I think that GRRM's answers clearly refers to the possibility of Sansa requesting the annullment as Alayne, which, of course, can't be considered by a HS.

He also says that "no one needs to be present to annull a marriage".

Bringing this answer as a possible hint of a non-validity of the marriage between Tyrion and Tysha is honestly VERY far-fetched, IMHO.

I agree. Even if these are not reasons stated about annulment.

They need to ask for an annullment but not specifically at the sept nor specifically to address the high septon to get his blessing. The catholic church functions with out the pope speaking to every tard who wants some thing im sure the seven can figure it out. Requesting an annullment in ours and martins world would not require large amounts of travel.

Completely agree.

Do we know for certain that ANY septon can provide an annulment?

Why are you bringing this up? Septa could fuction as pat suggested, no need for common septons to has pope's/septon's power or authority.

You are arguing from a catholic perspective. There is nothing to suggest that "underage" in itself is a threat to the validity of the marriage. In that case, we have several cases where the marriage would not be valid:

* Daenerys - Khal Drogo: Dany was underage

* Tyrek - Ermesande Hayford: Ermesande is what? Three?

* fake!Arya - Ramsay Bolton: Arya is underage

and lastly: Tyrion - Sansa Stark: Sansa was underage at the time of the wedding, making it automatically void.

Hence your point about underage is moot. If you want to argue that point, then Tyrion is not married to anyone currently.

No. That's not true.

Tryion could marry as underage. He could request a annulment as underaged. But as Tyrion was underaged, Tywin could take some Tyrion's errands. Simple as that.

[Dr. Pepper]

Amidst all the arguing I'm sure there was an answer somewhere, but I'll ask anyway - is it 100% stated that Sansa must request an annulment from the High Septon in person? I presume this goes for Tyrion too. I'm just wondering if another can do it for her, like LF as her "guardian", or if she can indeed do it by ravenmail ;)

I personally like this theory. I've always wondered when Tysha would show up, and I wouldn't be the slightest bit surprised if LF had the real Tysha hidden up his sleeve. We may not always agree on things Lyanna Stark, but you do come up with some great theories :D

SSM

Tigers14: btw, can a marriage be annulled without both parties present? and without sansa revealing who she really is?

GeoRR: no one needs to be present to annul a marriage

Tigers14: how?

GeoRR: but Sansa would need to request it

Tigers14: as sansa?

GeoRR: Well, why would a High Septon consider a request from anyone but the parties involved?

Tigers14: i mean she can't hide who she is. she has to request that her marriage, her being sansa stark, to tyrion lannister be annulled.

Tigers14: which would imply that the High Septon would need to know that Sansa Stark is requesting the annulment of her marriage.

Tigers14: Which would reveal, to a certain extent where Sansa is.

GeoRR: yes indeed

It has been conceded by some in this thread that there is a possibility that Martin is not implying that a request for annulment must always be made in person. Still, even a request in writing would reveal were Sansa is located putting her in just as much danger as if she made the request in person.

Martin does state that the request must be made by the parties in question. There is no implication that the request can be made by a guardian. From what we know, Tyrion did not request the annulment from Tysha which means that if the marriage was actually annulled (this theory suggests that it wasn't or at least that there is no evidence that it was), the request came directly from her.

[pat]

How does the High Septon know that Random Person sending him a letter via raven really is Sansa Stark? Does he have Magic Abilities to Just Know Stuff? Unless Sansa goes to Kings Landing in person, the High Septon has no way of knowing. Whether her word alone will be enough once she is there, nobody can tell, but why risk all that?

Brining out a "Tysha" solves this issue without it ever appearing in the first place, and LF can go on with his plan to reveal Sansa on her wedding day to Harry.

How does anybody know who anyone is.

Bringing out Tysha will only help if their was a fake annullment. Which again isnt backed up anywhere or i would be drowned in quotes from the story. Instead im told George redefined Anullment from any possible definition ever used and hasnt revealed his definition. So i therefore can not bring any evidence against it. And saying that the Seven has a chain of command or structure outside the High Septon is also regarded as silly.

[butterbumps!]

Why are you bringing this up? Septa could fuction as pat suggested, no need for common septons to has pope's/septon's power or authority.

Oh lord. I brought that up because if, in fact, it was so simply to get an annulment from anyone, why hasn't this road been taken already by LF? And is Pat really the canon source on the annulment norms of Westerosi religions?

Even if any old septa/ septon could offer annulment, wouldn't it make the most sense, in a case like the Sansa-Tyrion debacle, to make sure that the annulment comes from the most authoritative source so that it is never challenged by anyone again? Because, see, all the Northmen and Riverlanders think Sansa is married to Tyrion. They will not want to support Sansa unless they are 100% sure that no Lannisters have a claim to Winterfell. Ergo, quietly doing an annulment- if that's even legal- is not going to fly if Sansa is to be truly free from any Lannister names.

[deleted01]

SSM

It has been conceded by some in this thread that there is a possibility that Martin is not implying that a request for annulment must always be made in person. Still, even a request in writing would reveal were Sansa is located putting her in just as much danger as if she made the request in person.

Martin does state that the request must be made by the parties in question. There is no implication that the request can be made by a guardian. From what we know, Tyrion did not request the annulment from Tysha which means that if the marriage was actually annulled (this theory suggests that it wasn't or at least that there is no evidence that it was), the request came directly from her.

Ahh I see. Thanks for that :) So I guess Tywin getting the marriage annulled for Tyrion and Tysha is unlikely, from that quote. Interesting.

[brashcandy]

This is it and im out of this

Sansa is the daughter of a High Lord her word would suffice. If not some septas word would probably do the High septon never inspected Margery personally. And she was only subjected to that due to being accused by a Kettleblack. Originally a Vow was all that was needed to prove her first marriage was unconsummated. Tyrions originalnnullment was after consummation so i doupt its even a problem. Nonconsummation just makes it even easier.

Sansa is the daughter of a traitor who was sentenced to death is what the HS knows, and even if he doesn't have any love for the Lannisters, she's still accused of regicide.

[Lyanna Stark]

butterbumps! I hope you don't mind that I added your clarification of assumptions to the original post since it seems a lot of people are not particularly familiar with the political situation in the Vale, Riverlands and Kings Landing and need further information about it.

No. That's not true.

Tryion could marry as underage. He could request a annulment as underaged. But as Tyrion was underaged, Tywin could take some Tyrion's errands. Simple as that.

Has no bearing on the argument made. Natalie_S's argument was that the marriage with Tysha was automatically not valid because the participants were underage. Judging by other examples from Westeros and Essos, that is not so. I gave four different examples, including the Sansa - Tyrion marriage, which all involve underage participants. They are still considered valid marriages. Hence you are wrong in saying my statement is not true.

Your assumption that Tywin could request an anullment on Tyrion's part is refuted by GRRM's own words in the So Spake Martin. Only the participants in the marriage can request an anullment. Tywin was not married, hence he cannot request an anullment. Again, you were wrong for the second time.

How does anybody know who anyone is.

By presenting themselves in person, for instance, and bringing reputable witnesses who can back up their claim of who they are. For instance, the Lannisters, mostly Tywin, guaranteed the Boltons that fake Arya was Arya, and they accepted it.

Bringing out Tysha will only help if their was a fake annullment. Which again isnt backed up anywhere or i would be drowned in quotes from the story. Instead im told George redefined Anullment from any possible definition ever used and hasnt revealed his definition. So i therefore can not bring any evidence against it. And saying that the Seven has a chain of command or structure outside the High Septon is also regarded as silly.

You need to read the initial theory on page one since you clearly got it wrong.

[Lyanna Stark]

Ahh I see. Thanks for that :) So I guess Tywin getting the marriage annulled for Tyrion and Tysha is unlikely, from that quote. Interesting.

From what Tyrion tells us, he says "Tywin put a stop to that" about his wedding. He never implies or reflects about any High Septon being involved. While Tywin lived, I doubt anyone, not even the High Sparrow, would have done anything against Tywin, but now that Tywin is gone, the situation has changed.

The people who may be able to identify Tysha are Tyrion, Jaime, the drunk Septon and possibly some of the rapist guardsmen (although the latter is unlikely) and neither of these people are available to identify Tysha at the moment. Besides, it was a long time ago, and it's probable even someone like Jaime would not be able to recognise the original Tysha, should someone claim to be her.

It would also be rather ironic if the work of Tywin's cruelty would be undone (after a fashion) once he was gone. :) There are also the words Tywin uttered about Tyrion bringing no whores to Casterly Rock, which means Tyrion will probably somehow be the means of bringing whores, or a whore, to Casterly Rock in some way.

(Sort of like Emmon Frey saying no man will defeat him and take Riverrun, when we know the person who is most after the Freys is a woman: UnCat)

[Ragnorak]

How does anybody know who anyone is.

Bringing out Tysha will only help if their was a fake annullment. Which again isnt backed up anywhere or i would be drowned in quotes from the story. Instead im told George redefined Anullment from any possible definition ever used and hasnt revealed his definition. So i therefore can not bring any evidence against it. And saying that the Seven has a chain of command or structure outside the High Septon is also regarded as silly.

In Westeros in times of peace the seal of your House is how someone knows who you are. If a raven from Winterfell arrived from House Stark with the Stark seal that is fairly good evidence it is from the Starks. Repeated raven exchanges where you know of certain knowledge that your raven went toward Winterfell dramatically increase that certainty.

Sansa has no known public location so no House seal means anything regarding her identity.

[Lady Winter Rose]

Has no bearing on the argument made. Natalie_S's argument was that the marriage with Tysha was automatically not valid because the participants were underage. Judging by other examples from Westeros and Essos, that is not so. I gave four different examples, including the Sansa - Tyrion marriage, which all involve underage participants. They are still considered valid marriages. Hence you are wrong in saying my statement is not true.

Your assumption that Tywin could request an anullment on Tyrion's part is refuted by GRRM's own words in the So Spake Martin. Only the participants in the marriage can request an anullment. Tywin was not married, hence he cannot request an anullment. Again, you were wrong for the second time.

1) Natalie_S is saying that Tyrion needed Tywin's permision to marry.

2) Grrm stated that Sansa need to ask permision as Sansa. He didn't say she couldn't send someone else as her lawyer.

[NotSoSilentSister]

Another reason why I think it's highly likely that LF has been looking for a way to annul Sansa's marriage without having to reveal her: He did not count on Cersei self-destructing so quickly. There's this much quoted remark that he could have done with a little bit more time to bring his plans to fruition.

[Lyanna Stark]

1) Natalie_S is saying that Tyrion needed Tywin's permision to marry.

2) Grrm stated that Sansa need to ask permision as Sansa. He didn't say she couldn't send someone else as her lawyer.

1. I'm sure Tywin would have liked to have been asked, but Catelyn and Robb (Stark guardians of Sansa while she was underage) were not asked about Sansa's marriage and she is still considered married.

2. The High Septon would know that this person was a valid representative of Sansa how? Also, lawyers do not exist in Westeros.

[NotSoSilentSister]

1) Natalie_S is saying that Tyrion needed Tywin's permision to marry.

2) Grrm stated that Sansa need to ask permision as Sansa. He didn't say she couldn't send someone else as her lawyer.

1) How do we know that minors need the permission of a guardian to marry in Westeros? In an interview, Martin shot down someone's idea that Jon potentially being not quite of age yet might have any impact on the validity of his oath to the Nightwatch. If under-16 year old boys can legally pledge themselves to the Nightwatch, they may be able to take marriage vows as well.

2) Under different circumstances, Sansa might have been able to send someone else on her behalf, but since her identity is likely to be questioned, I don't really see a way for her to require annulment without presenting herself.

[Natalie_S]

You are arguing from a catholic perspective. There is nothing to suggest that "underage" in itself is a threat to the validity of the marriage. In that case, we have several cases where the marriage would not be valid:

* Daenerys - Khal Drogo: Dany was underage

* Tyrek - Ermesande Hayford: Ermesande is what? Three?

* fake!Arya - Ramsay Bolton: Arya is underage

and lastly: Tyrion - Sansa Stark: Sansa was underage at the time of the wedding, making it automatically void.

Hence your point about underage is moot. If you want to argue that point, then Tyrion is not married to anyone currently.

Hey there's no need to yell.

The difference is that all this people were married in accordance to their family, that are they legal tutor and have the right (in Westeros) to marry them to whom they want.

Dany was "given" to her husband by her older brother.

Sansa was a warden of the Crown, and Joffrey acted as her legal father ("I'm your father today... I can marry you to anyone I want ... etc"), same as "Arya".

Personally I think that the fact the the Septon was drunk and that there were no witnesses would be even more serious if we considered a catholic church point of view, it would surely lead to an annullment.

I'm just guessing that the Faith follows similar rules because there are many other parallels, but TBH it's all very vague because GRRM never put on paper the Faith rules.

[Natalie_S]

1) Natalie_S is saying that Tyrion needed Tywin's permision to marry.

2) Grrm stated that Sansa need to ask permision as Sansa. He didn't say she couldn't send someone else as her lawyer.

Actually I said that they needed witnesses and a sober Septon.

The underage part is important for the request of annullment, that, I believe, can be done by a parent too.

[DragonSpawn]

Re: OP - i like this theory a lot. If Tyrion knew about Tysha maybe he made promises to her to get revenge on the Lannisters or in particular Tyrion... Isn't there some dirty wench at the fingers? Was the Tyrion / Tysha wedding ever anulled officially? Would be quite funny if it was Tyrion / Sansa and Tysha as the three riders... Tyrion + his two wives? lol! who would see that coming?

[Ragnorak]

The underage marriage thing doesn't matter. Marriage is sacred in Westeros period. Everyone knows Ramsay kidnapped, raped, and locked Lady Hornwood in a tower to starve completely without her consent. The North Remembers it and wants to play arts and crafts with Ramsay's entrails but no one actually questions the validity of the marriage. Asha was married to a stand in seal and that counts even unconsumated.

Underage matters for tradition. If an underage Tyrion stays over night at the Twins and wakes up hung over and married to Fat Walda everyone agrees Tywin has cause to go all Rains of Castamere on Walder. Everyone agrees it is an outrage, everyone knows the Freys were wrong, and everyone knows the marriage is valid.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Hey there's no need to yell.

The difference is that all this people were married in accordance to their family, that are they legal tutor and have the right (in Westeros) to marry them to whom they want.

Dany was "given" to her husband by her older brother.

Sansa was a warden of the Crown, and Joffrey acted as her legal father ("I'm your father today... I can marry you to anyone I want ... etc"), same as "Arya".

Personally I think that the fact the the Septon was drunk and that there were no witnesses would be even more serious if we considered a catholic church point of view, it would surely lead to an annullment.

I'm just guessing that the Faith follows similar rules because there are many other parallels, but TBH it's all very vague because GRRM never put on paper the Faith rules.

It's all a "could be reason for an annullment", but "could be" is not "is", and one way or another, you need to request the annullment from the High Septon to receive annullment, something that has not happened as far as we know. Tyrion himselfs says that he is still married to Tysha, for gods sake!

[SecretNegative]

Whoops, wrong thread, delete this post, please.

[David Selig]

The underage marriage thing doesn't matter. Marriage is sacred in Westeros period. Everyone knows Ramsay kidnapped, raped, and locked Lady Hornwood in a tower to starve completely without her consent. The North Remembers it and wants to play arts and crafts with Ramsay's entrails but no one actually questions the validity of the marriage.

Actually Luwyn questions it.

“The monster has tied us a thorny knot,” the old knight told Maester Luwin. “Like it or no, Lady Hornwood was his wife. He made her say the vows before both septon and heart tree, and bedded her that very night before witnesses. She signed a will naming him as heir and fixed her seal to it.”

“Vows made at sword point are not valid,” the maester argued."

“Roose Bolton may not agree. Not with land at issue.” Ser Rodrik looked unhappy. “Would that I could take this serving man’s head off as well, he’s as bad as his master. But I fear I must keep him alive until Robb returns from his wars. He is the only witness to the worst of the Bastard’s crimes. Perhaps when Lord Bolton hears his tale, he will abandon his claim, but meantime we have Manderly knights and Dreadfort men killing one another in Hornwood forests, and I lack the strength to stop them.

The Manderly relatives of Lady Hornwood didn't accept it either back then, that's why Manderly and Bolton men were fighting for control of the Hornwood lands.