Crackpot: What if Rhaegar is the embodiment of all that is evil?

[Sapphire]

Rhaegar thought Aegon was TPTWP and that Rhaenys too would play into the prophecy. He was trying to father one more kid, not start from scratch. There's also no hint he ever tried to put Elia aside. If he meant to murder his family, why would he need Tywin's help at all. Exposing his plans would leave him open for blackmail. Rhaegar couldn't be that stupid. He was notoriously private and didn't even confide in those sworn solely to his dynasty.

More and more when i read about him I think ZEALOT. I think he really was a kind of religeos fanatic and envisioned himself the key to his own religeon.

We don't know a lot about Rhaegar but what gave you the idea it was religious fervor that drove him?

[Where Boars Glow]

Does the prophecy specify legitimate children?

The fifth room, finally, shows a man very much alike her brother Viserys, except that he is taller and has eyes of dark indigo rather than lilac. He is speaking to a woman who is nursing a newborn babe, telling her that the child's name should be Aegon and saying that "What better name for a king?". The woman asks him if he will make a song for the child, and he replies that he has a song and that "He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire.". He appears to look at Dany then, as if seeing her, and then he adds that "There must be one more," and "The dragon has three heads.".

Not pursay. Again i started out under the same assumption that Rhaegar was a swell guy with a heart of gold...just after rereads i have gotten this feeling.

[Where Boars Glow]

I find this difficult to grasp simply honestly simply because other than Robert everyone seems to have an exceptional opinion of Rhaegar. What he did was shocking and uncharacteristic, maybe even selfish, but evil...nah. On both sides of the lines people think fondly of him, from Jamie to Ned to Jorah to Barristan to Cersi. They all give us insight into Rhaegar's true self and by their accounts I must conclude he is far from the embodiment of evil.

Think about it though...who really spoke highly of Rhaegar.

1. Jon Connington (Wanted to spend the night inside his sugar walls)
   
2. Jamie Lannister (Who respected him as a warrior....which is all Jamie really respects)
   
3. Ser Barriston (Who has the least praise for him....and spoke with the same reverance of Arys)
   
4. Visarian (His brother who could barely remember him)
   

[Where Boars Glow]

Rhaegar thought Aegon was TPTWP and that Rhaenys too would play into the prophecy. He was trying to father one more kid, not start from scratch. There's also no hint he ever tried to put Elia aside. If he meant to murder his family, why would he need Tywin's help at all. Exposing his plans would leave him open for blackmail. Rhaegar couldn't be that stupid. He was notoriously private and didn't even confide in those sworn solely to his dynasty.

We don't know a lot about Rhaegar but what gave you the idea it was religious fervor that drove him?

The fifth room, finally, shows a man very much alike her brother Viserys, except that he is taller and has eyes of dark indigo rather than lilac. He is speaking to a woman who is nursing a newborn babe, telling her that the child's name should be Aegon and saying that "What better name for a king?". The woman asks him if he will make a song for the child, and he replies that he has a song and that "He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire.". He appears to look at Dany then, as if seeing her, and then he adds that "There must be one more," and "The dragon has three heads.".

"As a young boy, the Prince of Dragonstone was bookish to a fault. He was reading so early that men said Queen Rhaella must have swallowed some books and a candle whilst he was in her womb. Rhaegar took no interest in the play of other children. The maesters were awed by his wits, but his father’s knights would jest sourly that Baelor the Blessed had been born again. Until one day Prince Rhaegar found something in his scrolls that changed him. no one knows what it might have been, only that the boy suddenly appeared early one morning in the yard as the knights were donning their steel. He walked up to Ser Willem Darry, the master-at-arms, and said, 'I will require a sword and armor. It seems I must be a warrior.'"

Mainly that he really believed his children were the key to saving the world. He read these prophecies and truly believed he was the lynchpin of them.

[Lyanna Stark]

There is no evidence to suggest Rhaegar was a zealot, nor that he was an oddball.

The "strange" thing about him was that he was initially very bookish, but then later he got very good at turning himself into a knight and learning to be martial.

It may be worthy to note that it was Aegon V's idea to marry Rhaella and Aerys since he heard from a woodswitch that the Prince that was Promised would be born of that line. And Aegon V was pretty sane, by most accounts. Hence the prophecy belief may be a Targaryen thing, especially since the reason they left Valyria was a propchecy by Daenys Targaryen, or Daenys the Dreamer. Without the prophecy the Targaryens would have been caught in the Doom of Valyria. Since their entire family's survival has depended on prophecy, it may mean the Targaryens in general are more keen on believing it. There is also the old belief that the Targaryens are in fact capable of making prophetic statements.

How old is Brienne? I don't think it's even been indirectly hinted at how old she is.

I always just pictured her in her earlier 20s.

She was 17-18 when the series started. Jaime was into his 30s. Approx. 15 years difference between the two. Jaime is 36 as of AFFC.

[E-Ro]

I definitely think something was up with rhaegar, what a weirdo this guy is. But oh no he gets a free pass on everything for some reason. Good thing Robert took care of the guy. I don't think rhaegar was evil per say, but definitely odd, and very vain thinking he could do whatever he wanted.

[BANEE]

Think about it though...who really spoke highly of Rhaegar.

1. Jon Connington (Wanted to spend the night inside his sugar walls)
   
   
2. Jamie Lannister (Who respected him as a warrior....which is all Jamie really respects)
   
   
3. Ser Barriston (Who has the least praise for him....and spoke with the same reverance of Arys)
   
   
4. Visarian (His brother who could barely remember him)
   

Sorry but Barristen loved Rhaegar, he had loads of praise for him. Same reverance as Aerys?! Seriously?! He spoke of him positively each time, why would he speak negatively of Rhaegar? You're describing a very different Barristan than from what I've read.

Also Ned spoke highly of him, this is Ned, so we can trust his opinion.

[Frey family reunion]

The fifth room, finally, shows a man very much alike her brother Viserys, except that he is taller and has eyes of dark indigo rather than lilac. He is speaking to a woman who is nursing a newborn babe, telling her that the child's name should be Aegon and saying that "What better name for a king?". The woman asks him if he will make a song for the child, and he replies that he has a song and that "He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire.". He appears to look at Dany then, as if seeing her, and then he adds that "There must be one more," and "The dragon has three heads.".

Not pursay. Again i started out under the same assumption that Rhaegar was a swell guy with a heart of gold...just after rereads i have gotten this feeling.

I know I'm going to get crucified for this again but I have to suggest an alternate way of reading this vision. I think that Rhaegar had figured out the prophecy and knew that any chilldren with Ellia had nothing to do with the fulfillment of the prophecy. The quote in the house of the undying is not "will you make a song for the child" it is "will you make a song for him".

This conversation occurred right after Rhaegar discussed naming the child after Aegon. I think Ellia was referring to her child, I think in answering her, however, Rhaegar was referring to who he wanted to name the child after, which was Aegon V. I think that Rhaegar believed that Aegon V was the prince who was promised, and I think that he believed that Aegon was one head of the dragon, that he, Rhaegar, was the second head, and I believe when he talked about there being another that other was Dany.

According to Aemon, Rhaegar believed that Aegon was the prince that was promised because a comet was sighted in King's Landing the day he was conceived. Now interestling enough, when a comet is seen during the time of the books, it becomes the talk of the land. There is no discussion that another comet had just been seen about 15 years earlier, by anyone. The comet that we know is seen also occurs right before the year 300 AL.

What if Rhaegar in his correspondence to Aemon, referred to a historical sighting of a comet that occurred when Aegon the V was conceived. (Aegon V may have learned of this as well and may have led him to believe he was the prince that was promised? It just so happens that Aegon V must have been at 200 AL. He was 33 when he became King at 233 AL.

The birth dates and deaths of Aegon V, Rhaegar, and Dany also match up pretty well. Aegon V died in Summerhall which was the day that Rhaegar was conceived. Dany was born on dragon stone very shortly after the death of Rhaegar, so it was conceivable that she was at least in her mother's womb when Rhaegar was killed. The prince that was promised may not exist in one person but in three. This would also explain why Dany is called a child of three.

[Lyanna Stark]

Rhaegar gets positive comments from various sources, and sources who don't normally agree on much. Barristan, Jaime, Ned, Cersei and Jorah Mormont.

[Where Boars Glow]

Rhaegar gets positive comments from various sources, and sources who don't normally agree on much. Barristan, Jaime, Ned, Cersei and Jorah Mormont.

"Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought honorably. And Rhaegar died." – Jorah Mormont

I think this was a fairly backhanded compliment and more a statement on chivalry then Rhaegar

"In my dreams, I kill him every night. A thousand deaths will still be less than he deserves"-Robert Baratheon. ^[

^{Admittedly this was a sore spot for him}

Able. That above all. Determined, deliberate, dutiful, single-minded". That is Barriston....and while complimentary....i wouldn't call it glowing endorsement. Again it is the same way i would describe Tywin

I thought Cersei's quotes which i couldn't find seemed more fawning on how handsome he was and how great it would be when she was queen.

Ned also (I couldnt find the quote) but said something stoic and not highly complenatary just not openly hostile like Robert.

[Frey family reunion]

I think Rhaegar was probably a good, well read guy, that probably got so involved in the prophecies that surrounded him that he didn't pay enough attention as to what was immediately going on around him, (i.e. that his father was batshit crazy). I think he planned on trying to right things when he left for the trident and just wasn't given the opportunity. My guess is he was going to call a great council to remove Aerys from the throne, reveal that he had married Lyanna, was going to set aside his marriage to Ellia (with her blessing), legitimize her children with Arthur Dane (long story), and present Jon Snow as the rightful heir to the throne (and in his mind instrumental in the upcoming apocalyptical confrontation with the Others). Unfortunately Robert's hammer changed those plans.

[Where Boars Glow]

I think Rhaegar was probably a good, well read guy, that probably got so involved in the prophecies that surrounded him that he didn't pay enough attention as to what was immediately going on around him, (i.e. that his father was batshit crazy). I think he planned on trying to right things when he left for the trident and just wasn't given the opportunity. My guess is he was going to call a great council to remove Aerys from the throne, reveal that he had married Lyanna, was going to set aside his marriage to Ellia (with her blessing), legitimize her children with Arthur Dane (long story), and present Jon Snow as the rightful heir to the throne (and in his mind instrumental in the upcoming apocalyptical confrontation with the Others). Unfortunately Robert's hammer changed those plans.

WAIT AD + Elia = Elias children?

[Where Boars Glow]

Rhaegar thought Aegon was TPTWP and that Rhaenys too would play into the prophecy. He was trying to father one more kid, not start from scratch. There's also no hint he ever tried to put Elia aside. If he meant to murder his family, why would he need Tywin's help at all. Exposing his plans would leave him open for blackmail. Rhaegar couldn't be that stupid. He was notoriously private and didn't even confide in those sworn solely to his dynasty.

We don't know a lot about Rhaegar but what gave you the idea it was religious fervor that drove him?

For one that the Ghost of High Hearth spoke to him and thats when he started down his Prince thats promised path.

[James Arryn]

The fifth room, finally, shows a man very much alike her brother Viserys, except that he is taller and has eyes of dark indigo rather than lilac. He is speaking to a woman who is nursing a newborn babe, telling her that the child's name should be Aegon and saying that "What better name for a king?". The woman asks him if he will make a song for the child, and he replies that he has a song and that "He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire.". He appears to look at Dany then, as if seeing her, and then he adds that "There must be one more," and "The dragon has three heads.".

Not pursay. Again i started out under the same assumption that Rhaegar was a swell guy with a heart of gold...just after rereads i have gotten this feeling.

Ok, thanks.

Well then if there's no specific need for the 3rd dragon to be legitimate, it would seem that there is no motive for murdering his family, yeah? So none of this makes much sense.

Challenging precepts is cool, but this seems to be a huge contstruct built on quicksand. Which is not to say it isn't fun.

[Frey family reunion]

WAIT AD + Elia = Elias children?

A long, possible crack pot theory that I don't feel like retyping for the purpose of this thread, but yea I think it is a possibility.

[Where Boars Glow]

Ok, thanks.

Well then if there's no specific need for the 3rd dragon to be legitimate, it would seem that there is no motive for murdering his family, yeah? So none of this makes much sense.

Challenging precepts is cool, but this seems to be a huge contstruct built on quicksand. Which is not to say it isn't fun.

I did put Crackpot in the title and you bought the ticket :eek:

[jblair]

Unfortunately Robert's hammer changed those plans.

As the legendary Ser Tyson said, "everybody has a plan until they get punched in the face."

[James Arryn]

I did put Crackpot in the title and you bought the ticket :eek:

Totally. Didn't mean to sound as snarky as re-read showed my post to be. Sorry.

I think Rhaegar is an obvious target for iconoclastic theories because he's just about the only universally admired character in the series, barring only Robert who has an obvious reason to be biased, and whose specific grounds are open to question. So given GRRM's general distaste for monoliths, it's natural to try and wonder what lies behind the myth.

That said, there are so many sources from so many directions which all seem to paint the same picture that Occam's Razor would suggest Rhaegar mostly is accurately remembered. I think that still leaves a lot of room for nuance and interpretation, but given that no other character seems to benefit hugely from post-mortem romanticism, the idea that he was fairly all around brilliant is probably accurate.

[Where Boars Glow]

Totally. Didn't mean to sound as snarky as re-read showed my post to be. Sorry.

I think Rhaegar is an obvious target for iconoclastic theories because he's just about the only universally admired character in the series, barring only Robert who has an obvious reason to be biased, and whose specific grounds are open to question. So given GRRM's general distaste for monoliths, it's natural to try and wonder what lies behind the myth.

That said, there are so many sources from so many directions which all seem to paint the same picture that Occam's Razor would suggest Rhaegar mostly is accurately remembered. I think that still leaves a lot of room for nuance and interpretation, but given that no other character seems to benefit hugely from post-mortem romanticism, the idea that he was fairly all around brilliant is probably accurate.

As i said...i think my main premise for this belief is that all the thoughts of him being great, compliments, all have their own otherside of the coin. Like Cersi for example...She was more in love with the idea of being queen and i feel assosiated that a bit with her reflection of Rhaegar.

It's easy to love a beautiful one that died young (James Dean) Heck maybe in Westeros in 20 years they will all be talking about what a swell kid Vysaris was before that Evil Kahl Drogo tortured him to death in his prime...what a tragedy :)

[James Arryn]

As i said...i think my main premise for this belief is that all the thoughts of him being great, compliments, all have their own otherside of the coin. Like Cersi for example...She was more in love with the idea of being queen and i feel assosiated that a bit with her reflection of Rhaegar.

It's easy to love a beautiful one that died young (James Dean) Heck maybe in Westeros in 20 years they will all be talking about what a swell kid Vysaris was before that Evil Kahl Drogo tortured him to death in his prime...what a tragedy :)

Yeah, but what I meant re: James Dean was that there's not much precedent. Everyone else since the Age of Heroes seems to be remembered fairly even handedly outside of house/familial biases. Whereas Rhaegar crosses all bounderies. And I don't see the other side of the coin as you do. I see barristant objecting to romanticism as a concept, as in 'no single knight is ever clearly greater than all others', not in any way disputing that Rhaegar was great, which he affirms. Cersei was in love with the idea of being Queen, yes, but that's not another side. It's one reason she may have fond recollections of Rhaegar, but it doesn't provide an alternative characterization.

And that is the rub. Aside from Robert, there is none. All sources from all angles paint basically the same picture. Ned, who is if anything predisposed to reject the glamor that comes with being a Targ/of the Court/a dashing jouster etc. is as positive about Rhaegar as Cersei was.