Arya vs Sansa Thread

[Le Cygne]

So she's saying the whole horseface thing is in the past. It can't hurt her anymore. She's not that "stupid" girl anymore who was made fun of. They're dead and so is who she used to be. She was just sad about Jon not knowing who she was now because he was still alive.

But she's thinking this as they are about to replace her face with a dead girl's face! Face = identity. Loss of face = loss of identity. That's the connection to the story.

The face is ugly. She says, I was never pretty anyway. Well, my father and brother, and these are the two she thinks about the most, the ones who loved her for who she was, thought so, but they are dead and gone. So why NOT give up my face. No one will care.

You just said it, "who she used to be" is dead. Who she used to be was Arya Stark.

If it was only about justice as was mentioned in another thread she would have named Gregor not Chiswyck. She named men who had harmed her personally before instead of those who had harmed other people or the Starks.

It's when she hears the story of what happened to another girl that she names Chiswyck, otherwise, what was the purpose of this part of the story:

“... Now the old man has to drag her out of the kitchen, and no one to blame but hisself. Ser looks her over and says, ‘So this is the whore you’re so concerned for,’ and this besotted old fool says, ‘My Layna’s no whore, ser,’ right to Gregor’s face. Ser, he never blinks, just says, ‘She is now,’ tosses the old man another silver, rips the dress off the wench, and takes her right there on the table in front of her flopping and wiggling like a rabbit and making these noises. The look on the old man’s face, I laughed so hard ale was coming out me nose. Then this boy hears the noise, the son I figure, and comes rushing up from the cellar, so Raff has to stick a dirk in his belly. By then Ser’s done, so he goes back to his drinking and we all have a turn. Tobbot, you know how he is, he flops her over and goes in the back way. The girl was done fighting by the time I had her, maybe she’d decided she liked it after all, though to tell the truth I wouldn’t have minded a little wiggling. And now here’s the best bit . . . when it’s all done, Ser tells the old man that he wants his change. The girl wasn’t worth a silver, he says . . . and damned if that old man didn’t fetch a fistful of coppers, beg m’lord’s pardon, and thank him for the custom!”

The men all roared, none louder than Chiswyk himself, who laughed so hard at his own story that snot dribbled from his nose down into his scraggy grey beard. Arya stood in the shadows of the stairwell and watched him. She crept back down to the cellars without saying a word. When Weese found that she hadn’t asked about the clothes, he yanked down her breeches and caned her until blood ran down her thighs, but Arya closed her eyes and thought of all the sayings Syrio had taught her, so she scarcely felt it.

Two nights later, he sent her to the Barracks Hall to serve at table. She was carrying a flagon of wine and pouring when she glimpsed Jaqen H’ghar at his trencher across the aisle. Chewing her lip, Arya glanced around warily to make certain Weese was not in sight. Fear cuts deeper than swords, she told herself. She took a step, and another, and with each felt less a mouse. She worked her way down the bench, filling wine cups. Rorge sat to Jaqen’s right, deep drunk, but he took no note of her. Arya leaned close and whispered, “Chiswyck,” right in Jaqen’s ear...

[ARYa_Nym]

It's when she hears the story of what happened to another girl that she names Chiswyck, otherwise, what was the purpose of this part of the story:

Yes but unlike Gregor, Chiswyck had personally harmed her before. Would it not make more sense to name Gregor since he was the real perpetrator in the story?

But she's thinking this as they are about to replace her face with a dead girl's face! Face = identity. Loss of face = loss of identity. That's the connection to the story.

They gave her back her face after she killed the insurance man. It's just a disguise. She's no one so she can be anyone.

The face is ugly. She says, I was never pretty anyway. Well, my father and brother, and these are the two she thinks about the most, the ones who loved her for who she was, thought so, but they are dead and gone. So why NOT give up my face. No one will care.

You just said it, "who she used to be" is dead. Who she used to be was Arya Stark.

She says she never cared if she was pretty. She liked that the face was ugly. Jon was not dead at this point.

When she had her face the ones who she says are dead now besides Ned used to call her names and make fun of her. It doesn't matter anymore. It's in the past now. She doesn't want to go back to that.

[Le Cygne]

Yes but unlike Gregor, Chiswyck had personally harmed her before. Would it not make more sense to name Gregor since he was the real perpetrator in the story?

No, it wouldn't make more sense. She's doing something good here. She's not just thinking of herself.

They gave her back her face after she killed the insurance man. It's just a disguise. She's no one so she can be anyone.

It's what it represents. And she's not no one.

She says she never cared if she was pretty. She liked that the face was ugly. Jon was not dead at this point.

When she had her face the ones who she says are dead now besides Ned used to call her names and make fun of her. It doesn't matter anymore. It's in the past now. She doesn't want to go back to that.

She did care. She didn't really like it. Dead and gone, I said.

We can't just take her at her words. The fact that she is thinking of these things over and over again means she does care.

What is at stake here is her identity as a Stark.

We are just so apart on this, I don't think going back and forth is going to help.

[ARYa_Nym]

No, it wouldn't make more sense. She's doing something good here. She's not just thinking of herself

She is thinking of herself. It's not something bad to want to get rid of someone who hurt you.

The reason why those other men got to rape the girl is because Gregor himself did it first then passed her around. . The real justice would have needed to be dispensed to him.

She did care. She didn't really like it. Dead and gone, I said.

We can't just take her at her words. The fact that she is thinking of these things over and over again means she does care.

What is at stake here is her identity as a Stark.

We are just so apart on this, I don't think going back and forth is going to help.

I'm saying that the quote is wrong. She said that she never cared if she was pretty not that she was never pretty.

I think she did care which is why she doesn't want to go back to being Arya Horseface again and gets mad whenever she thinks about it.

Her identity as a Stark is still an option for her. She would just have to tell the KM she doesn't want to stay and leave presuming that he allows her to leave and doesn't kill her for it whether then or later on.

[Pod The Impaler]

Yes but unlike Gregor, Chiswyck had personally harmed her before. Would it not make more sense to name Gregor since he was the real perpetrator in the story?

Because she is 8 years old (maybe 9 by then at most). She first of all did not trust this promise Jaqen made was real.

Afterwards, she realizes she should have named someone like Ser Gregor or Lord Tywin, somone higher up not a couple of nobodies, but she is a child so she named those who were most immediate. Not wise, not strategic, but again, she's eight.

[ARYa_Nym]

Because she is 8 years old (maybe 9 by then at most). She first of all did not trust this promise Jaqen made was real.

Afterwards, she realizes she should have named someone like Ser Gregor or Lord Tywin, somone higher up not a couple of nobodies, but she is a child so she named those who were most immediate. Not wise, not strategic, but again, she's eight.

What is someone high if Weese had killed her or harmed her? In the moment she has to think about her own safety.

Arya is constantly criticized for failing to see the big picture here and wasting the names but who was going to prevent these men from hitting her if she did not name them?

[Pod The Impaler]

Arya is constantly criticized for failing to see the big picture here and wasting the names but who was going to prevent these men from hitting her if she did not name them?

Well, that's my point, The girl is 8 years old, so blaming her for using two lives on people who seemed more immediately threatening is a bit unreasonable.

[Le Cygne]

I'm saying that the quote is wrong. She said that she never cared if she was pretty not that she was never pretty.

It wasn't a quote.

I think she did care if she was pretty.

She seemed quite surprised and yet happy when her father said she looked like Lyanna Stark:

"You remind me of her sometimes. You even look like her.”

“Lyanna was beautiful,” Arya said, startled. Everybody said so. It was not a thing that was ever said of Arya.

“She was,” Eddard Stark agreed, “beautiful, and willful, and dead before her time.”

Again, we can't just go by words.

She is thinking of herself. It's not something bad to want to get rid of someone who hurt you.

As I said, though, the story was told that way for a reason. Why even tell the story of the gang rape IMMEDIATELY before telling of her naming Chyswyck, if there was not some significance to her choice.

[ARYa_Nym]

It wasn't a quote.

I think she did care if she was pretty.

She seemed quite surprised and yet happy when her father said she looked like Lyanna Stark:

Upthread it was stated in response to the ugly face that Arya said that she was never pretty. That's not what she said.

“She had never cared if she was pretty..."

In AGoT when Sansa calls her ugly she has tears so she does care. She thinks about Lady Smallwood calling her pretty while she's with Sandor and wants to leave him to run back to her but didn't know the way.

She hated the way she was treated as Arya Stark in response to her looks so going back to that doesn't appeal to her.

EDIT: This is from AGoT. Given the way she was made fun of she might not even like the way she looks.

"Arya took after their lord father. Her hair was a lusterless brown, and her face was long and solemn. Jeyne used to call her Arya Horseface and neigh whenever she came near."

[Le Cygne]

Like I said, it wasn't a quote. POV's are tricky things, and she's a child. So this is my interpretation. I think she cared if she was pretty, I think she didn't think she was pretty, and I think she liked that her father and Jon Snow thought she was pretty. That's why I believe it was brought up at that point in the story. She gets the mask. She remembers this. She says go ahead. I don't believe the point was to show she didn't care. Quite the opposite.

[ARYa_Nym]

Like I said, it wasn't a quote. POV's are tricky things, and she's a child. So this is my interpretation. I think she cared if she was pretty, I think she didn't think she was pretty, and I think she liked that her father and Jon Snow thought she was pretty. That's why I believe it was brought up at that point in the story. She gets the mask. She remembers this. She says go ahead. I don't believe the point was to show she didn't care. Quite the opposite.

That's not what I saying. I was saying that she most certainly did care about being known as horseface. She wants that part of her to be dead and in the past.

[Le Cygne]

The story was symbolic. It wasn't about "pretty" so much as about the connection. Face = identity. They took her face off. She thought the only ones who would have cared (her father and brother) were gone. And her father and brother are the ones she was closest to. They saw her true self when no one else did. That's all I tried to say.

My broader point was that I feel she has all but lost hope. We were comparing Arya and Sansa and I feel more confident that Sansa will pull through, but I'm not so sure about Arya.

[ARYa_Nym]

The story was symbolic. It wasn't about "pretty" so much as about the connection. Face = identity. They took her face off. She thought the only ones who would have cared (her father and brother) were gone. And her father and brother are the ones she was closest to. They saw her when no one else did. That's all I tried to say.

My broader point was that I feel she has all but lost hope. We were comparing Arya and Sansa and I feel more confident that Sansa will pull through, but I'm not so sure about Arya.

She said that Jon and Ned were the only people who told her that though. Most of the people who knew Arya Stark either called her Horseface or Underfoot. So she's more likely going to associate Arya Stark with being unattractive because she was constantly told that and was surprised when Ned compared her to someone who was known as beautiful.

There's a self loathing and insecure undertone here. If people tell you you're ugly you may start to believe it. Hence when she thinks of the stupid girl Arya Stark she can't help but remember what she was known as. It's not a good feeling for her.

When she said says they're dead now and even Arya it's after she mentions that she was made fun of for her looks.

"To her sister and her sister’s friends and all the rest, she had just been Arya Horseface. But they were all dead now, even Arya..."

Next she singles out Jon and says only lives but he doesn't know her as Blind Beth.

Again, hope for what?

As I said, though, the story was told that way for a reason. Why even tell the story of the gang rape IMMEDIATELY before telling of her naming Chyswyck, if there was not some significance to her choice.

It's not the only reason for her choice though which is my point because the real cause of the rape is Gregor. She had more reason to name Chiswyck because he hit her. That's what Chiswyck and Weese have in common.

[The Nite Wolf]

She said that Jon and Ned were the only people who told her that though. Most of the people who knew Arya Stark either called her Horseface or Underfoot. So she's more likely going to associate Arya Stark with being unattractive because she was constantly told that and was surprised when Ned compared her to someone who was known as beautiful.

There's a self loathing and insecure undertone here. If people tell you you're ugly you may start to believe it. Hence when she thinks of the stupid girl Arya Stark she can't help but remember what she was known as. It's not a good feeling for her.

And this is why Arya is my little honey badger. :frown5:

I'm sure we've all experienced some form of insecurity at one point in our lives, and the fact that this 9/10 year old girl was constantly belittled is absolutely heart breaking to me. I understand that kids will be kids - and what were Sansa and Jeyne if not children - and often give little thought to the impact their words will have, but it's for this reason that I tend to dislike those characters at least in A Game of Thrones. Even then....

Of course, given all that's Arya's seen and experienced, her physical appearance is likely to be of little importance at this point but I don't doubt that those memories have left their mark.

And as for Chiswyck, I had assumed that she named him because he was the one telling the story and clearly thought it was quite funny. Although Ser Gregor initiated it, and I highly doubt he regretted his actions, Chiswyck seemed to revel in it.

[Lyanna Stark]

She said that Jon and Ned were the only people who told her that though. Most of the people who knew Arya Stark either called her Horseface or Underfoot. So she's more likely going to associate Arya Stark with being unattractive because she was constantly told that and was surprised when Ned compared her to someone who was known as beautiful.

There's a self loathing and insecure undertone here. If people tell you you're ugly you may start to believe it. Hence when she thinks of the stupid girl Arya Stark she can't help but remember what she was known as. It's not a good feeling for her.

When she said says they're dead now and even Arya it's after she mentions that she was made fun of for her looks.

:agree:

Sansa has similar reactions to her old self, but in her case she thinks back on her old self as a silly stupid girl and "that day was done, and so was Sansa", while she takes on the Alayne persona.

It seems to me both Arya and Sansa will have to face their old demons (and eachother!) before the series is ended. They have issues to sort out with eachother, and with themselves, which have roots in how they reacted and could not accept eachother back in AGOT. As of ADWD, both of them has grown, changed and been thoroughly through the grinder, which means they should have an easier time to come to terms with eachother and their differences. Arya is definitely not just a wilful little girl with little direction, and Sansa is not a naive dreamer with her head in the clouds.

[Lady Sansa Stark]

:agree:

Sansa has similar reactions to her old self, but in her case she thinks back on her old self as a silly stupid girl and "that day was done, and so was Sansa", while she takes on the Alayne persona.

It seems to me both Arya and Sansa will have to face their old demons (and eachother!) before the series is ended. They have issues to sort out with eachother, and with themselves, which have roots in how they reacted and could not accept eachother back in AGOT. As of ADWD, both of them has grown, changed and been thoroughly through the grinder, which means they should have an easier time to come to terms with eachother and their differences. Arya is definitely not just a wilful little girl with little direction, and Sansa is not a naive dreamer with her head in the clouds.

They definitely come to terms I'd say. All they want, although not clearly stated obviously, is to go back home, to Winterfell. I don't think Arya will blame Sansa for anything she's done, just like the other way around; Sansa won't blame Arya anymore. They've grown, got a lot of life experience. I'd say that when they meet (they will, this is my only wish :frown5: ) they will be one heck of a team together. Truly sisters, without the issues they had when they were younger. And Sansa will name one of her children Arya. :cool4:

I'm so biased.

[ARYa_Nym]

And this is why Arya is my little honey badger. :frown5:

I'm sure we've all experienced some form of insecurity at one point in our lives, and the fact that this 9/10 year old girl was constantly belittled is absolutely heart breaking to me. I understand that kids will be kids - and what were Sansa and Jeyne if not children - and often give little thought to the impact their words will have, but it's for this reason that I tend to dislike those characters at least in A Game of Thrones. Even then....

Of course, given all that's Arya's seen and experienced, her physical appearance is likely to be of little importance at this point but I don't doubt that those memories have left their mark.

Agreed. On the previous page I posted a quote where the KM asks her if she can pay the price and the last thing she thinks of before she says yes is the name Arya Horseface.

"She thought of all the names she had worn: Arry, Weasel, Squab, Cat of the Canals. She thought of that stupid girl from Winterfell called Arya Horseface. Names did not matter. “I can pay the price. Give me a face.”

Obviously, becoming no one can be interpreted as sad but it's not like it was roses for her being Arya. She was insecure to the point where she questioned the depth of her mother's love. She thinks that Cat wouldn't want her back in part because she failed to please her.

“…my hair’s messy and my nails are dirty and my feet are all hard.” Robb wouldn’t care about that, probably, but her mother would. Lady Catelyn always wanted her to be like Sansa, to sing and dance and sew and mind her courtesies. Just thinking of it made Arya try to comb her hair with her fingers, but it was all tangles and mats, and all she did was tear some out. ”

When Cat reflects on Arya she refers to her as a trial. Sansa said in ASoS that Arya was entirely unsatisfactory as sisters went.

They both still cared but their discontent was probably well known. There's also the septa.

In AGoT when she is mocked for not getting the sewing right she says that Nymeria loved her even if no one else did.

She definitely has insecurities and issues. Before she starts her FM training she says that she doesn't need friends. She's jaded at this point.

"Braavos might not be so bad. Syrio was from Braavos, and Jaqen might be there as well. It was Jaqen who had given her the iron coin. He hadn’t truly been her friend, the way that Syrio had, but what good had friends ever done her? I don’t need any friends, so long as I have

Needle."

She still manages to later make some and miss them when she wasn't allowed to be Cat. Her insecurities just aren't that apparent imo because she rarely stops to do any serious self reflection. She keeps moving forward and wants to just bury it in the past. Let it die so to speak.

So basically I'm saying there's a lot of negativity attached to her own physical appearance so I can see the idea of changing her face appealing to her. It already was when she saw Jaqen do it.

[Le Cygne]

She said that Jon and Ned were the only people who told her that though.

Though?

I'm seeing that as a central connection for Arya (her father and her brother) and the emphasis in a passage dealing with identity on a deeper level. This goes beyond "pretty" (and even there, she knows these two very significant people thought she was pretty).

She said "they were all dead now, even Arya" and "even Jon" would not know her now.

For Arya to think "Arya" is "dead", there's a profound sense of loss here.

Sansa has similar reactions to her old self, but in her case she thinks back on her old self as a silly stupid girl and "that day was done, and so was Sansa", while she takes on the Alayne persona.

Whether outwardly no one or someone else, the self is still there, inside. It's always there. Her "old self" was Sansa. She was young and she made mistakes, but that's part of who she is and always will be. You go on from there, you don't say "you" are done.

For Sansa to think "Sansa" is "done", again, there's a profound sense of loss.

[The Nite Wolf]

Obviously, becoming no one can be interpreted as sad but it's not like it was roses for her being Arya. She was insecure to the point where she questioned the depth of her mother's love. She thinks that Cat wouldn't want her back in part because she failed to please her.

When Cat reflects on Arya she refers to her as a trial. Sansa said in ASoS that Arya was entirely unsatisfactory as sisters went.

They both still cared but their discontent was probably well known. There's also the septa.

Very true. And while I try not to hold that against Catelyn, it does irk me from time to time.

Quite frankly, had Arya been fostered with say the Mormont women on Bear Island, I don't doubt that she would be considerably less insecure, if Dacey Mormont is any indication. Even Lady Smallwood was a much more positive influence, in my opinion. :dunno:

[ARYa_Nym]

Though?

I'm seeing that as a central connection for Arya (her father and her brother) and the emphasis in a passage dealing with identity on a deeper level. This goes beyond "pretty" (and even there, she knows these two very significant people thought she was pretty).

She said "they were all dead now, even Arya" and "even Jon" would not know her now.

For Arya to think "Arya" is "dead", there's a profound sense of loss here.

They were all dead now isn't referring to Ned and Jon but the ones who called her names. Jon doesn't know who she is now which makes her sad but it's not like he's lost to her yet. She says that Jon is alive and she listens to news about him.

It's not anything new really. In response to Harwin asking her how she knows him in ASoS:

"For a moment she did not know how to answer. She'd had so many names. Had she only dreamed Arya Stark?"

Very true. And while I try not to hold that against Catelyn, it does irk me from time to time.

Quite frankly, had Arya been fostered with say the Mormont women on Bear Island, I don't doubt that she would be considerably less insecure, if Dacey Mormont is any indication. Even Lady Smallwood was a much more positive influence, in my opinion. :dunno:

I think with the Mormonts they at least accept them as they are. It's different because the Mormont women had to be unconventional to protect themselves from wildlings and the Ironborn. The current generation also has more leeway since there are no grown males around. Dacey Mormont still received outside criticism though.

Cat may have accepted Dacey but that wasn't her daughter. Ned and Cat had the same plans for Arya so even as Arya she was on track for a miserable life.

When Arya is Cat of the Canals she can live the way she wants and no one says anything. She didn't want to be Cat forever though.

Lady Smallwood was more effective with Arya than her parents and septa I believe because she gave her positive feedback and told her that everyone had their different strengths. I think Lady Smallwood is probably the best female figure Arya has had in her life but it was only for a short period of time.