Arya vs Sansa Thread

[Lord Renly]

Note that the Hare list actually applies for adults, and that not all the boxes need to be checked, see http://en.wikipedia....pathy_Checklist for the methodology.

I kinda disagree with some excuses given to her, that I feel border on whitewashing, though:

Factor 1: Personality "Aggressive narcissism"

• Glibness/superficial charm: Certainly the case once she is in Braavos. How many times have her "friends" been mentioned? The ones she finds everywhere?
  
• Grandiose sense of self-worth:
  "I'm not a boy," she spat at them. "I'm Arya Stark of Winterfell, and if you lay a hand on me my lord father will have both your heads on spikes. If you don't believe me, fetch Jory Cassel or Vayon Poole from the Tower of the Hand." She put her hands on her hips. "Now are you going to open the gate, or do you need a clout on the ear to help your hearing?"
  [...]
  "I am the Ghost in Harrenhal"
  [...]
  "Valar dohaeris." All men must serve. "You know the words, but you are too proud to serve. A servant must be humble and obedient."
  "I obey. I can be humbler than anyone."
  That made him chuckle. "You will be the very goddess of humility, I am sure. But can you pay the price?"
  
• Pathological lying There was nothing pathological, but... she is getting there
  
• Cunning/manipulative She is getting there, too. Not really in her temperament but her experience teaches her to do it. To get Gendry out of Harrenhal, for example.
  
• Lack of remorse or guilt Yes, in fact that is the main point making her creepy early on. The turning point was likely:
  "What did you think I would do?" Her fingers were sticky with blood, and the smell was making her mare skittish. It's no matter, she thought, swinging up into the saddle. The rain will wash them clean again.
  
• Shallow affect (genuine emotion is short-lived and egocentric) Certainly, now that she is in Braavos and in the FM
  
• Callousness; lack of empathy This is likely where I diverge the most with the usual reading. I see all her interactions leading up to Braavos to be less and less empathic. She starts by feeling sorry for Mica or giving water to a man in a cage. She ends up barely able to give a damn when she assassinates some guy for no reason given (and she starts that off by wanting to kill more people without a single thought)
  
• Failure to accept responsibility for own actions: Certainly true in the FM training. The FM training is not good for her.
  

Factor 2: Case history "Socially deviant lifestyle".

• Need for stimulation/proneness to boredom Yeah, no.
  
• Parasitic lifestyle Well, certainly, but that's just a factor of her being a kid, she needed someone to leech off from to grow.
  
• Poor behavioral control Yes.
  
• Lack of realistic long-term goals Indeed. "One day I'll kill them all" doesn't count in my mind as a realistic long term goal, and there is nothing beyond or aside that in Arya. Plans are always done short term and impulsively.
  
• Impulsivity Yes.
  
• Irresponsibility Hard to say, she never was given much responsibility, but I see her rather do something she wants to do rather than her duty. That's why Catelyn thought she was a trial, or Robb thought she would not want to marry. If she is like Lyanna that seals the deal.
  
• Juvenile delinquency: Yes, even before the coup she was not one to stick to the rules. And now she is a thief and murderer.
  
• Early behavior problems: Yes.
  
• Revocation of conditional release: Not applicable.
  

Traits not correlated with either factor

• Promiscuous sexual behavior Not applicable yet, but under the FM guidance, and truly, considering Arya's behaviour, I really could see that in the future. Controlling one's sexuality is empowering anyway.
  
• Many short-term (marital) relationships Not applicable, but considering her personality, again... yeah I could see it.
  
• Criminal versatility certainly.
  
• Acquired behavioural sociopathy/sociological conditioning (Item 21: a newly identified trait i.e., a person relying on sociological strategies and tricks to deceive) This so much. Nobody else meets the criteria better.
  

Point is, when people refer to her as a psychopath, they likely take into account her evolution, and what she is right now, and they don't mean the technical psychopathy but the tendencies Arya has, which in analysing do tend toward the definition anyway. "but it's because" or "she was" are not really relevant. Though again, I'm not sure anyone called Arya a psychopath in this thread.

Anyway, Arya would probably meet up more points on the Anto Social Personality Disorder list, and there is no denying that she is deeply disturbed, no matter what you call her problem. Considering she is a fiction character, I will continue thinking that GRRM purposefully gave her traits that are covered in the psychopathy/APSD lists, because he always wanted to make her into a disturbed individual doing nasty things.

A lot of your examples are, once again, ignoring social realities of Westeros, or reading things into the text that aren't implied.

It's not having a "grandiose" sense of self-worth for a little noble-born girl to know that her dad is important and that servants have no business giving her a hard time. Sansa knows this. Is Sansa a sociopath? Is every noble in Westeros? "Ghost of Harrenhal" isn't particularly grandiose, either, merely fanciful. Neither is having confidence in your ability to learn.

Neither do I see short-lived emotion in her, even in Braavos--only long-term depression and nihilism, and her Stark identity asserting itself despite having taken a beating (yes, she killed Dareon because he's a deserter; yes, she has the authority to do it, because it requires no special authority--Jon's chapters make it clear that every man's hand is against the NW deserters). In this regard, she's no different from Sansa. Nor is there failure to accept responsibility. Her FM training is the exact opposite of that. She doesn't think, or say, that anything has been forced on her, or that she "has" to do anything. There is no self-declared victimhood here. Her "friends" in Braavos don't seem to be the result of glib or superficial charm, either. We never see her charming anyone. It's a huge leap to assume she must be glibly charming because she has friends.

As for irresponsibility and juvenile delinquency, give me a break. Is Sam a delinquent because he keeps breaking the rules about being a martial, aggressive boy? Is Brienne? She does what she wants, rather than what society tells her is her duty.

Basically the "sociopath" or "psychopath" checklists have no meaning unless we factor in social conditions very heavily. "Psychopathic tendencies" is a very weaselly term in any case: "tendency" is a vague word, pretty much any human being (even in modern 1st-world culture) can have some tendency we might call psychopathic.

If we fail to factor in the social conditions, then Arya is still one of the least "psychopathic" characters, falling far behind most men in the books who never get called sociopaths (including Robert Baratheon, Loras Tyrell, Jaime, Podrick Payne, Gendry, Sandor, Theon), and no more psychopathic than Sansa, who may at this point be plotting the murder of Robert Arryn (depending on her reaction to LF's revelation), and who seems to be emotionally very cold in her last appearances.

If you change the armchair diagnosis from psychopathy to ASD, that doesn't really make it any better. It's the glib diagnosis of medieval fictional characters in war zones that I have a problem with.

None of this, I should note, has anything to do with the morality of what Arya does. I've seen many comments that seem to conflate "Arya was wrong to do X" with "Arya doing X makes her a sociopath." Doing something wrong doesn't make you a sociopath. Moral judgments aren't medical or psychological facts. If Arya, or any other character, repeatedly does harmful things, and if we disapprove of her actions, that doesn't automatically make her a "sociopath." Has she done harmful things? Sure. Can we excuse her? I can excuse a lot of it, but others disagree. Does it make her a sociopath, even if you don't excuse her? Nope. And saying "she's not a sociopath" isn't the same as saying "she never harmed anyone," or "her actions don't count," or "her actions are perfectly okay."

Also, everything Queen Cersei I said is spot-on.

[ARYa_Nym]

The checklist made me realize that my love Gerris has some psychopathic traits.

He has the glibness/superficial charm. I need more evidence on the pathological lying and lack of empathy though.

"Gerris had obliged, lying with every other word, since he dare not tell the truth of who they'd been or why they'd come."

The situation called for it though. Barriston mentioned him being a false coin and Quentyn mentioned a mummer's smile but he had to act though. He could normally be a liar though which is why it came so easy to him.

The lack of empathy I need more info but I'm not sure about him truly mourning because he put on a show right after Quentyn died and definitely was making up a story by saying that Quentyn wanted Dany's love.

Despite all this I would say that he's just an actor and maybe can't be trusted.

Edit: I think he normally has the impulsiveness but in ADWD didn't want to mess with the dragons.

“It was not in Gerris Drinkwater’s nature to imagine they might fail, let alone that they might die…He knows my nature is as cautious as his is bold.”

There's sexual promiscuity. He's still not married in his mid '20s.

Failure to accept responsibility IDK. He did blame everything on Dany but that doesn't apply to himself. He might have a grandiose sense of self worth with his confidence bordering on arrogance.There's not enough info.

I still love him though.

[Lyanna Stark]

If you think this is shallow, then I would like to remind you two things. 1. As I said, at that age (actually, even in the womanhood for some people) these kind of things are extremely important to most. 2. Please remember all the times we had to endure Sansa while she was thinking how beautiful she was and generally admiring herself in her POV. I don’t think there’s ANYTHING wrong with liking that you’re pretty. But no one can deny that Sansa tended to have very shallow thoughts about people’s appearance and birth - even after her father had been killed, which is the point where some people claim she has “transformed.” But anyway…

This is false. Sansa doesn't do this. In fact, she doesn't reflect at all, or extremely little, on her own looks. OTHER people do, but not Sansa herself.

So Arya decided (subconsciously, I believe) to turn away from all of the lady-like things. Yet we can still see her hurt and resentment between the lines, where she thinks about all the times people tell her or imply that she “should be more like Sansa,” and Sansa wasn’t exactly the amazing-and-supportive-big-sister either. I don’t know about you but I certainly wouldn’t let my best friend call my little sister “horseface,” or refer to my sister as “an embarassment.”

Having grown up with a two year younger sister and a healthy dose of sibling rivalry, this is a load of horseshit. I called my sister far worse things, and she definitely called me far, far worse things. We tried to claw eachother's eyes out and could hardly stand eachother's presence for well over 8+ years.

It passed. It's called sibling rivalry and is EXTREMELY COMMON.

I keep dragging Sansa into this because; 1. Sansa is actually a huge factor -as the big sister- in Arya’s earlier character development, 2. Most of these ridiculous Arya-haters happen to be Sansa-stans - which actually angers me even further, 3. Well, this thread IS titled Arya vs Sansa.

Again, false. Like QC1, I love both girls' characters. Pitting one against the other is pointless.

I’m not going to discuss their strengths or decide which one is “better”… I just want to say a few things as an answer to some of the Arya vs Sansa posts I’ve seen all over the internet, which ROYALLY pissed me off.

1. There are some people who claim Sansa is “better” because unlike Arya, her “compassion increased as the war went on” or blah blah…

Never seen this one myself and I have participated in Sansa threads for over ten years. I doubt this is a very common stance.

2. The whole feminism deal…

Okay. First of all, if you’ve just watched the show and your opinion on this only derives from the “Most girls are idiots” line, then let me tell you: that line doesn’t exist in the books.

Secondly, if you actually think Arya is misogynic, then you need to reread the books. Probably about a million times. Please and thank you. The reason why Arya refuses feminine things is because of the reasons I explained above. NOT because she hates her own gender. Quite the opposite, actually. If you remember, when she was mistaken for a boy by several people (pre-Ned’s death), she was very annoyed about it and always corrected them. She contradicts her parents about gender roles and named her direwolf after a warrior queen, NOT because she thinks men are better but because she thinks women too, can do everything that men can! If you didn’t get this distinction which was so GLARINGLY obvious… then damn, R’hllor is testing me again.

Has anyone ever criticised Arya for not following Westerosi gender roles? Where, in that case, was that?

And the reason why Arya-fans like myself think she’s better than most women in the series is NOT because she uses a sword or refuses feminine things. It’s because she’s a realist (unlike most other girls who dream of gallant knights and obsess over their looks), she’s a survivalist, she’s resourceful, she’s realistic and she’s tough. I love Catelyn for the same reasons - yet Catelyn isn’t exactly a swordsmaster either, is she? So… shut up about this, too.

"Most women", I guess in the series would be...Melisandre, Asha, Dany, Brienne, Arianne and Sansa then? Mel certainly doesn't, neither does Asha, nor does Arianne, and Sansa doesn't anymore. She did in AGOT. Dany wants an attractive man, but her definition of that seems to be far off the Westerosi gallant knight variety. Besides, automatically being disdainful of women's wish for an attractive partner is really awful. Are women not allowed to want someone attractive? Is it shallow to want to actually be attractive to your partner? Should women just STFU already and suppress any wish or need to desire their partners?

I also think that the only time you see the women mentioned "obsess" over their looks is when it is over something specific: Sansa needs to dress for a specific occasion (like the Lords Declarants' meeting) and considers her dress choices. Dany changes dress several times before meeting up with Daario. Dany is described as the most beautiful woman in the world by others. Sansa is described as beautiful by others. You do not see these girls/women go on and on about their own beauty. This is a falsification.

I would also like to point out that several of the other female characters share all, or most, of these traits.

Regarding what you label "the whole feminist deal", I'm not even sure what you are after, but you seem to labour under the illusion that people pointing out that Sansa or Dany are feminist characters who break more with patriarchy automatically infer that Arya is a "bad feminist" or that the character is somehow misogynist, but that is not the truth.

GRRM uses his different female characters to shine lights on different aspects of how women struggle with the narrow gender roles in Westeros. Arya, Dany, Brienne, Arianne, Cersei and Asha show us that women trying to make a "career" in a man's world are going to run into trouble. Arya can't become the High Septon. Dany is the first in effect female Khal and she is a Queen ruling in her own right, and struggles against trying not to be married as a broodmare. Arianne thinks Doran wants to pass her over in the line of succession for a male heir. Asha wants to be Queen of the Iron Isles, but she was born a woman. Brienne wants to be a knight, but that is reserved for men. Cersei is ruling as Queen, but only does so in a limited sense, through her son, and she laments not getting a sword when Jaime did, due to being born a woman.

Cersei, Dany and Sansa also help illustrate that women have little to no power in marriage. They are sold off like cattle, and as Cersei states it, to get ridden like a horse whenever the husband likes only to get thrown away for some younger filly when he gets bored. Married women belong to their husbands, and the husbands are their lord. Women's lives are tailored to please, and they are taught stuff like Septa Mordane's words to Sansa about trying to see something beautiful in their Lord husband because "all men are beautiful". Again a complete denial of female desire. It's worth nothing. While men can go whoring and nobody cares much.

This doesn't make one a "better feminist": imo all the female characters are written to some degree using a feminist lens, since their issues and problems are taken seriously and we sympathise with their struggles with patriarchy. Even Cersei gets understanding and sympathy during her Walk of shame and how she is so horrible bitter about never getting the chance to wield a sword like Jaime.

You can also look at things like the female characters' relationship with their patriarchs and how they either submit, try to usurp, or avoid their patriarchs.

Hence "The whole feminism deal..." heading is a faulty premise and shows a misunderstanding of how the female characters relate to feminism and what issues they are illuminating.

[Real Heir of Bear Island]

If I had to choose which character I like better and which POV I like reading better I would pick Arya, hands down. I wouldn't say one's traits are generally better than the other though. Like most of Martin's characters both are flawed and both have some good qualities. Early on Sansa really bothered me. I blamed her for Ned's death and before that I couldn't stand her narrow view of teh perfect world she thought she lived in. Arya seemed understand, despite being younger, that the world doesn't work liek a song. I think Sansa quickly and brutally learned the truth and has shown lots of growth. I'd say she has grown more than most, and will continue to learn from Littlefinger and grow even more as a character.

[I'll pay the iron price]

Arya by a mile.

[ARYa_Nym]

Having grown up with a two year younger sister and a healthy dose of sibling rivalry, this is a load of horseshit. I called my sister far worse things, and she definitely called me far, far worse things. We tried to claw eachother's eyes out and could hardly stand eachother's presence for well over 8+ years.

It passed. It's called sibling rivalry and is EXTREMELY COMMON.

We've been discussing that while it's common the damage stays. It's not just Sansa and Jeyne who said those things but her peer group and then she got negative comments from her parents and her septa. In Arya's case where would she have learned to love and value herself within the Stark household? We've acknowledged that she's insecure which shouldn't be surprising considering how she grew up. The KM can possibly pick up on this and use it to his advantage.

I don't think Arya gets critiqued as much for defying gender norms on here as she does on other sites. The were more comments like that last year than this year.

This is not from here but for example I've read these type of comments quite a few times on various sites:

And while Ramsay Bolton was extraordinarily bad, few men in Westeros would put up with Arya's independency and her attachment to being like a man.

Then there's the Gendry/Arya shipping. The fact that he "accepts" her as she is is treated as if it's some great defeat and she should like him because it would be near impossible for her to find anyone else who will.

The all girls are stupid line didn't help. I think it's based on a misreading that she wants to be a boy and some think that she's a lesbian anyway.

Arya Stark is the youngest daughter of Eddard and Catelyn, a ferociously independent lesbian.

As far as compassion I have seen that and I have a quote on hand but I won't single out a post.

But it's mainly used as a defense for Arya needing to be killed off, being a sociopath/psychopath, or being too damaged, or not being the way a Stark should be anymore.

[Errant Bard]

I don't think Arya gets critiqued as much for defying gender norms on here as she does on other sites. The were more comments like that last year than this year.

This is not from here but for example I've read these type of comments quite a few times on various sites:

Then there's the Gendry/Arya shipping. The fact that he "accepts" her as she is is treated as if it's some great defeat and she should like him because it would be near impossible for her to find anyone else who will.

Meh, it's not because it exists somewhere that readers from this very forum should be lumped with them, though. Rants including this are either Quixotte-esque or trying to mischaracterize the other posters.

It's always doable to find scum on the internet, but those opinions are disgusting.

But it's mainly used as a defense for Arya needing to be killed off, being a sociopath/psychopath, or being too damaged, or not being the way a Stark should be anymore.

Are there that many posts asking for Arya to be killed? As far as I can remember, Arya hate has always been very low, and the death wishes even lower, and most of the psychopathy discussions were between people with different interpretations of characterization, but who all wanted to read more of it.

...wait. "The way a Stark should be"? What's that?

[ARYa_Nym]

Meh, it's not because it exists somewhere that readers from this very forum should be lumped with them, though. Rants including this are either Quixotte-esque or trying to mischaracterize the other posters.

It's always doable to find scum on the internet, but those opinions are disgusting.

No they shouldn't. I have seen it on here but it was mainly last year. I don't see it as much anymore. I know a poster in particular who likes to say that Arya will always fail because she's in an arena where she can't compete as the weaker sex and using femininity is much more successful.

Are there that many posts asking for Arya to be killed? As far as I can remember, Arya hate has always been very low, and the death wishes even lower, and most of the psychopathy discussions were between people with different interpretations of characterization, but who all wanted to read more of it.

...wait. "The way a Stark should be"? What's that?

She's mainly loved but as with anything there will always be detractors. However, it is a popular thing among them to say that she needs to be killed and that she doesn't have a place in society.

As for the Stark thing it's widespread for the fandom to have views about certain houses. A lot of people need the Starks to be the good guys and the heroes. Villains are for the Targaryens and the Lannisters. So you know that she kills people is used as a justification that she's not befitting of a Stark. This is not a opinion of the majority though where Arya is concerned.

[Lyanna Stark]

We've been discussing that while it's common the damage stays. It's not just Sansa and Jeyne who said those things but her peer group and then she got negative comments from her parents and her septa. In Arya's case where would she have learned to love and value herself within the Stark household? We've acknowledged that she's insecure which shouldn't be surprising considering how she grew up. The KM can possibly pick up on this and use it to his advantage.

I completely agree with this, and I'm sure you've seen my rants on Septa Mordane elsewhere. That woman was 100% cruise control in Most Possible Damage mode. Also, people seem to conveniently forget that Cat and Ned were conventional as well. Had the Starks stayed in the North, both Arya and Sansa would have had more "conventional" lives.

I don't think Arya gets critiqued as much for defying gender norms on here as she does on other sites. The were more comments like that last year than this year.

That's just a *facepalm* comment, but it once again reinforces that SFF has some deep issues with sexism it needs to sort out.

Then there's the Gendry/Arya shipping. The fact that he "accepts" her as she is is treated as if it's some great defeat and she should like him because it would be near impossible for her to find anyone else who will.

This seems to be another variety of the whole "women should be grateful for attention" or that the female obviously needs to fall for the male hero as soon as he is nice enough/gives her enough attention/seems heroic enough, or in this case, Gendry manages to somehow "work past her difficult nature" (ugggh).

The all girls are stupid line didn't help. I think it's based on a misreading that she wants to be a boy and some think that she's a lesbian anyway.

The show is full of misreadings and straight up mischaracterisations. Arya as a lesbian I've never seen before, nor that she should somehow not want to be a woman. It just goes to show that when it comes to reader fail, there is always something newer and dumber people can think of.

But it's mainly used as a defense for Arya needing to be killed off, being a sociopath/psychopath, or being too damaged, or not being the way a Stark should be anymore.

That seems to be a common theme. Arya is too damaged to be a Stark, while you know, the other kids are...totally intact and the same as before AGOT? Sansa is not a Stark but a Tully. (Strangely all the Stark kids are 50% Tully except Jon, but I guess that never strikes some people?)

It makes you wonder, what is a Stark? How do you have to be to be an accepted Stark and at what point does a character suddenly lose their family ties?

(As someone who ranks Arya and Sansa as my two favourite characters, it makes me want to facedesk repeatedly when people claim they are "not Stark enough". Fuck that right in the ear.)

[ARYa_Nym]

I completely agree with this, and I'm sure you've seen my rants on Septa Mordane elsewhere. That woman was 100% cruise control in Most Possible Damage mode. Also, people seem to conveniently forget that Cat and Ned were conventional as well. Had the Starks stayed in the North, both Arya and Sansa would have had more "conventional" lives.

Yes, lol.

The show is full of misreadings and straight up mischaracterisations. Arya as a lesbian I've never seen before, nor that she should somehow not want to be a woman. It just goes to show that when it comes to reader fail, there is always something newer and dumber people can think of.

TBH, I felt like Arya S2 was an experiment where they could try out things and make up stuff. I don't think book Arya would say that line.

That seems to be a common theme. Arya is too damaged to be a Stark, while you know, the other kids are...totally intact and the same as before AGOT? Sansa is not a Stark but a Tully. (Strangely all the Stark kids are 50% Tully except Jon, but I guess that never strikes some people?)

It makes you wonder, what is a Stark? How do you have to be to be an accepted Stark and at what point does a character suddenly lose their family ties?

(As someone who ranks Arya and Sansa as my two favourite characters, it makes me want to facedesk repeatedly when people claim they are "not Stark enough". Fuck that right in the ear.)

Yes. Not Stark enough seems to be thrown at Sansa more. I think it's stupid though especially since I like House Targaryen and they all get lumped with crazy.

They're all different and there's no inherent way that they're supposed to act.

This seems to be another variety of the whole "women should be grateful for attention" or that the female obviously needs to fall for the male hero as soon as he is nice enough/gives her enough attention/seems heroic enough, or in this case, Gendry manages to somehow "work past her difficult nature" (ugggh).

IA.

The shipping didn't bother me at first until I realized that many were acting like she can only like him which extremely strange given her age. I don't particularly like him and given their history I don't like him with her.

[Elba the Intoner]

{snip}

I know Sansa had a hard time in the Red Keep, with Joffrey’s psychophatic and unstable behaviour. She was abused emotionally and physically - yet nowhere even CLOSE to what Arya has suffered. Sansa still ate very well every day, had handmaidens to look after her every need, slept on featherbeds and remained safe inside the castle. The only time that safety was threatened was during the riot, but she was only ALMOST dragged down from her saddle, to be swiftly saved by the Hound. Even then, when she was returned to Red Keep, she was shaking and stuttering as if she’d just stared death right in the face, whereas Arya was travelling with Gregor-fucking-Clegane, watching actual medieval torture and rape every day. So shut up about it. OF COURSE Sansa would be softer and able to keep her compassionate side better than her sister. Arya has every single right to shut off her compassionate side.

Sansa’s abuse may have been pretty heavy, but this post talks about consequences and what Arya went through could far more easily generate that kind of personality (a behaviour which some people have the gall to criticise, as I said!) than what Sansa went through.

But Sansa did just stare death in the face during the riot. One man's limbs were torn from his body and another man's head was bashed to a pulp with stones. She knew what was going to happen to her when she was being pulled off her horse by the garlic breath man and she suffers from severe PTSD from the memory later when she has her nightmare as she gets her first moonblood. You want people to understand the horrors that Arya saw and endured when she was captured by Gregor, which is well and good. They were terrifying and would leave anyone scarred for sure. But then you do to Sansa's experience in the riot the same thing that you don't like others doing to Arya, which is not recognizing how the horror of her situation might have affected her. Both situations seemed absolutely terrifying to me and I held my breath as I read through the riot just as I did when I read about Gregor's men torturing those people in the village. I wouldn't want to experience either one and I don't see why people feel the need to deem one's experiences as "not as bad" as the other's.

Also, I don't see how Sansa is expected to feel "safe inside the castle" when she is being beaten on a regular basis so she has to find gowns with long sleeves to cover her bruises, has Joff saying that he's going to rape her once she has her moon blood, and during the Battle of the Blackwater when Cersei parades Ilyn Payne in front of her and tells her that he's there to chop off her head if the battle doesn't go the Lannister's way.

The point is that both girls have seen and experienced horrors and brutality and I don't think one's experiences were less horrible than the other's, but they are different personalities and they consequently express their traumas in different ways. I love both girls and hope they can both prevail and won't follow down the dark paths they are being tempted with as of ADWD.

ETA Because I just saw the discussion about the Arya/Gendry shipping and I wanted to say that I do ship them together but not because she can only like him or he deserves her but simply because I saw a lot of chemistry between them.

[Errant Bard]

I like House Targaryen and they all get lumped with crazy.

I think the root of the bloody problem is saying that you like house X or house Y even when those house actually are composed of very different people. It just implicitely makes them all the same.

The shipping didn't bother me at first until I realized that many were acting like she can only like him which extremely strange given her age.

It's more than the age, it's the very idea that the goal of a woman is to get a man. Bran has very specific thoughts about Meera, but what do people talk about: his destiny as greenseer, saviour of the world or what have you. Sansa gets almost raped once, and about 50% of talk about her is about her hooking up with that guy, or another.

Maybe the numbers are wrong, but the tendency is correct. After all it's cultural that a woman, even a fictional one, is only defined by her relation to men, I suppose. So it is with Arya: first guy crossing her path, she must end with him forever and ever.

[LordBloodraven]

Personally Sansa's development is a totally mental and emotional one compared to Arya's more typical-fantasy based bad ass assassin etc. one.

I enjoy the former over the later.

Also, I just have an irrational HATE of Arya.

Why? What did she do to you?

[Lady Arianne Martell]

Why? What did she do to you?

I hate her personality. I hate that readers glorify her and then hate on Sansa because she's not some tomboy bloodthirsty killing chick . I hate everything about her.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

. . .

As far as compassion I have seen that and I have a quote on hand but I won't single out a post.

But it's mainly used as a defense for Arya needing to be killed off, being a sociopath/psychopath, or being too damaged, or not being the way a Stark should be anymore.

Not to mention being Sansa's competition. ;)

The [Arya/Gendry] shipping didn't bother me at first until I realized that many were acting like she can only like him which extremely strange given her age. I don't particularly like him and given their history I don't like him with her.

By the old gods and new, do I HATE Arya/Gendry shipping. Just felt the need to say that because I haven't in the last day or two. :bang:

ETA Because I just saw the discussion about the Arya/Gendry shipping and I wanted to say that I do ship them together but not because she can only like him or he deserves her but simply because I saw a lot of chemistry between them.

Chemistry? ARYA WAS NINE YEARS OLD! She was 9 and Gendry was 16. As far as I'm concerned that kind of chemistry should be reported to Child Protective Services.

Sorry for the slightly hysterical tone, but . . . I just . . . can't . . . :bang:

I hate her [Arya's] personality. I hate that readers glorify her and then hate on Sansa because she's not some tomboy bloodthirsty killing chick . I hate everything about her.

Be calm, my children, for I hate everything about Sansa, and thus the balance of the universe is maintained. :cool4:

[Elba the Intoner]

By the old gods and new, do I HATE Arya/Gendry shipping. Just felt the need to say that because I haven't in the last day or two. :bang:

Chemistry? ARYA WAS NINE YEARS OLD! She was 9 and Gendry was 16. As far as I'm concerned that kind of chemistry should be reported to Child Protective Services.

Sorry for the slightly hysterical tone, but . . . I just . . . can't . . . :bang:

Well, I age them all up in my head for one thing, and for another, younger kids can still make a connection with someone that at a younger age would not be romantic, but as they got older could. Look at Maggie and Ralph from the Thorn Birds for ex., or kids who were friends growing up who later end up getting married. So, maybe chemistry was not the right word, but they had a connection for sure.

[PureGold]

Definitely Sansa. I just find Arya so overdone. The Traveling Tomboy who miraculously survives insurmountable odds. I didn't hate Arya's Traveling Tales until she headed to Bravos, than she became even more trite and her story more uninspired (IMO) than it already was. Not bad just so boring compared to just about every other character. I just find everything with her so uneventful for the most part. If her character died in Bravos who in the story would care. Arya hasn't MATTERED for a long time.

Sansa by contrast I've seen develop more and more as the books have gone on, she's made allies who've than become enemies and has interacted with and been apart of the most engaging and exciting plot twist in the whole series. Her scheme to escape with Dontos, I found to be very exciting, her interactions with the Tyrells VERY intriguing, her treatment by the Lannisters heartbreaking. Sansa has incredibly interesting dynamics with Margaery, Olenna, Cersei, Tyrion, Littlefinger, Little Robin.

She's seen fortunes unbelievably rise and tragically fall. Sansa who started this tale as Naive and flightly is now a Lady-wife, wanted-fugitive, maiden living under a false identity with one of the most deceitful villains in the whole story. In terms of interest Sansa isn't even in the same Library as Sansa.

[ARYa_Nym]

I think the root of the bloody problem is saying that you like house X or house Y even when those house actually are composed of very different people. It just implicitely makes them all the same.

I can't speak for others but for me personally I like both the differences and the similarities. The reason why I like that house is because whether the Targaryen is "good" or "bad" I find them interesting. I like the detailed history we've been given. I want to be fed information whether it's on Daeron II or Maegor the Cruel. The madness actually makes them more complex to me. I think it adds another layer. I like the good and the bad. When we get on the individual level though then I would say no I don't actually like Aerys II as a person for example but I sure did love reading about him.

It's more than the age, it's the very idea that the goal of a woman is to get a man. Bran has very specific thoughts about Meera, but what do people talk about: his destiny as greenseer, saviour of the world or what have you. Sansa gets almost raped once, and about 50% of talk about her is about her hooking up with that guy, or another.

Maybe the numbers are wrong, but the tendency is correct. After all it's cultural that a woman, even a fictional one, is only defined by her relation to men, I suppose. So it is with Arya: first guy crossing her path, she must end with him forever and ever.

I think this assessment is accurate.

With Arya in particular I have a suspicion that some want her importance to be only how can she be of help to other characters that they like hence the constant questions of how she's going to meet up with Jon, Sansa, Gendry, or whoever. Usually theories that want that to happen I find that they never ask for Arya to have aspirations for herself outside of her relation to those characters.

Chemistry? ARYA WAS NINE YEARS OLD! She was 9 and Gendry was 16. As far as I'm concerned that kind of chemistry should be reported to Child Protective Services.

Sorry for the slightly hysterical tone, but . . . I just . . . can't . . . :bang:

I didn't see anything but a child longing for companionship since she was alone without her support group.

[Light a wight tonight]

Syrio lasted no more then 1 minute

You say Syrio took down 5 guardsmen in one minute using a weighted stick? Not bad for a retired dude. And a minute would have been plenty for someone to leave a room.

[ARYa_Nym]

You can also look at things like the female characters' relationship with their patriarchs and how they either submit, try to usurp, or avoid their patriarchs.

That reminds me that I dislike the warrior women always obey their patriarchs while feminine women don't arguments.

For many of them it has negative consequences anyway. Arianne's plot went kaput. Asha is currently in a tight space because if she had obeyed her male authority figures Euron may have just killed her but she's now a prisoner.

Charges that Arya would never seems like selective reading to me.

"She would not betray Jon, not even to their father."

Ned felt that Arya had the tendency to disobey him.

“I can keep it?” she said. “For true?”

“For true.” He smiled."If I took it away, no doubt I'd find a morningstar hidden under your pillow within the fortnight."

Which is partially what prompted him to give her the speech about the lone wolf and comparing her to Lyanna and Brandon.

I don't think Ned was that rigid on discipline anyway. On reread I noticed that Bran disobeyed him often as well when he had the use of his legs. All Ned did really was scold him and give him time out but when Bran continued to do it he just laughed.