ab aeterno Posted September 18, 2012 Share Posted September 18, 2012 In this case it made things harder than they needed to be for Cat and Jon, who otherwise might have had a much more fulfilling relationship. Once again this is assuming Jon's parentage is as above. Personally I would be VERY upset if I discovered my husband had been keeping something like from me for all those years.Would you understand if he promised his sister on his dying breath that he wouldn't tell anybody? People are always talking about how the women are or ought to be stronger/more assertive/more competent in fiction and ASOIF, so surely we should expect Cat to be able to act like a compassionate adult and not hate/maltreat a child? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DorneRising Posted September 18, 2012 Share Posted September 18, 2012 As for OP, suely there is no coming back? I did cringe slightly when she was resurrected. Yes, they're fantasy novels but bringing her back to life and then restoring her to her prior self smacks of immature, indecisive writing.I guess the only way she could be fully restored could possibly be a visit to the Elder Brother in the Quiet Isles? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anonymouseuser Posted September 18, 2012 Share Posted September 18, 2012 Would you understand if he promised his sister on his dying breath that he wouldn't tell anybody? People are always talking about how the women are or ought to be stronger/more assertive/more competent in fiction and ASOIF, so surely we should expect Cat to be able to act like a compassionate adult and not hate/maltreat a child?But did she "hate and maltreat him?" She didn't warm to him. She didn't show him affection. I don't know why specifically, perhaps she was the jealous type but she never "maltreated him". Meanwhile the rest of the family were perfectly OK with him as long as he understood his place. Robb told him as much and yet he's never singled out for this kind of disapproval (to put it mildly). And all the while Ned saw this happening and never did anything about it. Jon was bottom table when he wasn't excluded entirely from the big family moments. Yet it's always Cat that gets the blame. Her "hatred and maltreatment" seems to be based on one explosion of rage when she was emotionally unstable after the attack on Bran. Not a nice thing to do granted but once again Ned could have avoided all this if he'd spoken at the right time. He chose not to and yet no-one condemns him for it. After all he had his honour to consider. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ab aeterno Posted September 18, 2012 Share Posted September 18, 2012 But did she "hate and maltreat him?" She didn't warm to him. She didn't show him affection. I don't know why specifically, perhaps she was the jealous type but she never "maltreated him". Meanwhile the rest of the family were perfectly OK with him as long as he understood his place. Robb told him as much and yet he's never singled out for this kind of disapproval (to put it mildly). And all the while Ned saw this happening and never did anything about it. Jon was bottom table when he wasn't excluded entirely from the big family moments. Yet it's always Cat that gets the blame. Her "hatred and maltreatment" seems to be based on one explosion of rage when she was emotionally unstable after the attack on Bran. Not a nice thing to do granted but once again Ned could have avoided all this if he'd spoken at the right time. He chose not to and yet no-one condemns him for it. After all he had his honour to consider.She basically just ignored and ostracized this child for his entire life, and based upon what she tells us about her attitude to him, you can assume her body language wasn't very welcoming. As a mother, she should understand the effect that would have on a child. Also, even when emotionally unstable, telling a fourteen year old that it should have been him crippled and nearly dead is really cruel. It is also telling that Jon doesn't see the least bit surprised by what she says.Also, Jon has to leave WF and take the black, comitting himself to a life of celebacy and likely death because he knows that Cat would never tolerate him staying at WF. When that comes to someone who is still a child- a point she continually makes about Robb, who is older, that is maltreatment in my books, and at best it is negligent, bordering on emotional abuse and neglect. This is a kid who has never done anything to deserve this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anonymouseuser Posted September 18, 2012 Share Posted September 18, 2012 She basically just ignored and ostracized this child for his entire life, and based upon what she tells us about her attitude to him, you can assume her body language wasn't very welcoming. As a mother, she should understand the effect that would have on a child. Also, even when emotionally unstable, telling a fourteen year old that it should have been him crippled and nearly dead is really cruel. It is also telling that Jon doesn't see the least bit surprised by what she says.Also, Jon has to leave WF and take the black, comitting himself to a life of celebacy and likely death because he knows that Cat would never tolerate him staying at WF. When that comes to someone who is still a child- a point she continually makes about Robb, who is older, that is maltreatment in my books, and at best it is negligent, bordering on emotional abuse and neglect. This is a kid who has never done anything to deserve this.He didn't have to take the black. He hero worshipped his uncle Benjen and romatically decided (far too young in my book) that that was the way forward for him. Once again Ned could have tried to talk him out of it - he didn't. And once again everyone else at Winterfell treated him pretty well within the confines of his being (seemingly) a bastard so once again you're putting a lot of weight on the shoulders of a single character. Probably time to stop this. We're going very off topic here and I've already had my first ever post locked (not sure why so if anyone would care to illuminate me.....) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
someonetyriondpayforsex Posted September 18, 2012 Share Posted September 18, 2012 Respectfully, if you find it boring, then just avoid the threads where this type of discussion takes place. The entire point of most works of fiction or art is to elicit an emotional response, and it's that emotional response which drives so much of the discussions on this board and the love for the series.Emotional responses become far deeper, finer, and more complex if you look beneath the surface of your first moral reflex [Like/Don't like]. It's like slowly tasting wine as opposed to gulping it down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Bong of Ice and Fire Posted September 18, 2012 Share Posted September 18, 2012 I'm waiting for Arya to put an end to UnCat. Wouldn't that be something? hehe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ab aeterno Posted September 18, 2012 Share Posted September 18, 2012 He didn't have to take the black. He hero worshipped his uncle Benjen and romatically decided (far too young in my book) that that was the way forward for him. Once again Ned could have tried to talk him out of it - he didn't. And once again everyone else at Winterfell treated him pretty well within the confines of his being (seemingly) a bastard so once again you're putting a lot of weight on the shoulders of a single character. Probably time to stop this. We're going very off topic here and I've already had my first ever post locked (not sure why so if anyone would care to illuminate me.....)Alright, the last thing I'll say is that: He's a bastard, he could either stay at WF (can't because of Cat,) or join the NW, he doesn't really have any other options. Secondly, Ned went along with it because it made Cat happy, because he couldn't stay at WF, and beacuse he would be there with Benjen, who Jon had always liked. Finally I'm not putting it all on Cat, but she was by far the worst culprit and IMO as an adult she should have known better and been more responsible and caring, not taken her unhappiness out on a child.Regarding the other thread, idk, I was in the middle of posting when it was locked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ab aeterno Posted September 18, 2012 Share Posted September 18, 2012 Emotional responses become far deeper, finer, and more complex if you look beneath the surface of your first moral reflex [Like/Don't like]. It's like slowly tasting wine as opposed to gulping it down.Agreed. I didn't mean to support only superficial emotional responses. I'm all for introspection and examining the reasons for the emotional responses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywolf2375 Posted September 18, 2012 Share Posted September 18, 2012 As for OP, suely there is no coming back? I did cringe slightly when she was resurrected. Yes, they're fantasy novels but bringing her back to life and then restoring her to her prior self smacks of immature, indecisive writing.I guess the only way she could be fully restored could possibly be a visit to the Elder Brother in the Quiet Isles?There's nothing in the books though that says she - or anyone else that has been brought back that same way - would be restored. That's pretty much why Beric goes through the process of telling how he becomes less and less what he was before.The Elder Brother doesn't have any special powers to bring the dead back to life or restore what Cat and Beric lost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
What a Flayed Man Holds Posted September 18, 2012 Share Posted September 18, 2012 Dear God, please don't let Catelyn come back. There aren't that many characters left and if UnCat becomes ReCat, they're all completely screwed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ab aeterno Posted September 18, 2012 Share Posted September 18, 2012 To be entirely honest, I think she's better as unCat. Yes, she's a fanatical revent machine but at least now she is unlikely to start any more wars or get any more Starks killed. :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sand Snake No. 9 Posted September 19, 2012 Share Posted September 19, 2012 I've repeated this in I-don't-know-how-many posts in I-don't-know-how-many threads, but what the hell, I'll say it again: IMO UnCat was created to do what no [ETA: living] Stark would do -- really bad stuff. She's going to make the ruthless Tywin look like a choir boy, I think. The more power to her.ETA: to answer the OP, no I don't think she can come back, and if she does what I think she's going to do, no one will want her to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordStoneheart Posted September 19, 2012 Author Share Posted September 19, 2012 I love when posts get off topic. :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melpomene Posted September 19, 2012 Share Posted September 19, 2012 Regarding the OP at hand:I think she might have small progress - but I mainly see it happening near the end of her (undead) life. Like she finally reaches inner peace, or logic hits her.Physical healing I can't really see entirely, other than perhaps slightly better speech as she gets used to her new vocal cords. It seems like her tissue is initially "dead" and won't be regenerating anytime soon.In the off topic bregade: It is sort of a real pity that Cat seems to take in all the blame for causing the war :dunno: as if Littlefinger, Varys, Cersei, Lysa, Joffrey had nothing to do with it ...with their conspiracies, murders, lies, false blames on other people, manipulations....and Jon Arryn and the other Baratheons wanting to out eligimate royal kids. Cat or no Cat, in context, pretty sure shit was going to hit the fan anyway.And she was the one causing the death of the Starks? Robb was elected king by other people and made the poor decision in marrying Jeyne, Cat was just trying to mend the broken ties after her sons massive mistake. Ned was the one who brought his daughters to KL where they later initially faced abuse, captivity and loss. It was Jon's own choice to join the NW. It was Ned's own choice to become Hand of the King at the chaos that is court despite Cat's objection. It was Jaime who made the attempted murder on Bran, and another who attempted the second murder (And Cat did save Bran's life on this one) and with limited resources she needed to pursue justice the best and safest way she knew how and later return home. Someone tried to kill her kid twice, it would be hard to let that go. And afterall, Tyrion WAS a suspect...it was his dagger that was used. What was one supposed to act and think? The possible murderer of your family member is right in front of you, would you risk letting them go free if there is a chance you might never get them again? And in the end, it was Theon and Ramsay who lead the demise of Winterfell, Bran and Rickon suffering that loss.Obviously Catelyn had her moments, but the hate is just completely overblown in my view. Especially since that it doesn't make any sense that people will show love for people like Randyll or Victarion, clearly REAL daily abusers with child torturing and the latter promoting rape and regular murders with his bare hands...yet Catelyn makes one comment towards the figure who regularly reminds her of her husbands alleged affair (Something she normally has to tolerate calmly as the wife of the times) and makes a couple hasty decisions and suddenly gets a tsunami of hatred.Forvige me for sounding all feministy - but it seems like when a female character does something wrong, albiet small in comparison to others, she is awful. But when a male character does something wrong, he is defended and understood, and labelled "So baddass!" for being a swift killer, tactition, or says cool and funny one liners. Tywin has done worse things to his kids than Cat did with hers, and has done worse things to thousands to other people than Cat, with pillaging, rape and mass murders under his belt. But he gets more love than her because he is still offers "awesome" traits like being a good general and making lot's of money for the Lannister name. People have argued on behalf of Jaime and Robert to be understood and liked, people have loved Bronn for his snarky humour despite him having no qualms killing babies for money or killing anyone for money, later marrying a poor victimized woman for his own benefit. People defended Tyrion despite his unhealthy relationship with women, his lookism and what happened to the Antler Men. Oh, but nope, Catelyn is a huge bitch for ignoring Jon and saying a meanie line while in mourning and trying to do what she thought was right for her family even if mistakes were involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordStoneheart Posted September 19, 2012 Author Share Posted September 19, 2012 oh anyone have the link to an interview GRRM gave about his undead? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordStoneheart Posted September 19, 2012 Author Share Posted September 19, 2012 ...i love you, melponene. :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
What a Flayed Man Holds Posted September 19, 2012 Share Posted September 19, 2012 It's true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted September 19, 2012 Share Posted September 19, 2012 Are you suggesting that Ned thought he couldn't rely on Cat keeping her mouth shut about this? Also whether or not she should have been able to "swallow her emotions" if she she couldn't, shouldn't he have put matters right ? Wouldn't have been difficult.I think Ned's choice not to tell the truth about Jon to Cat (and others) was to protect her and their children (and Jon, of course). I think he might have been worried about what Robert would do had he known the Starks had a Targaryen boy. Not only a Targaryen but Rhaegar's son no less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveRoid Posted September 19, 2012 Share Posted September 19, 2012 Beric was cut in half in chest and he was reattached by the healing process. So I assume there are degrees of healing. Scares and such would remain however as well as sensitive injuries (like the eyes and vocal cords).The other question is, does she have her soul or is her soul gone and something else is operating her body? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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