Adwd- on the menu. MYSTERY MEATS? or cannibalism

[Lord Liam DarkStark]

We'll never know the end of symon silvertongue's song :(

[Jon Reborn]

We'll never know the end of symon silvertongue's song :(

A pity, truly.

And a singers hands are warm simmered down in a bowl of brown... ?

[louzeyre]

Goat. The accidental autosarcophagist.

I think it's definitely being used to show both how desperate things are going to start becoming in Westeros. But it also

is used as a marker of how dark some characters are.

[Lord Liam DarkStark]

Of course. But yet I should specify more. In lots of cultures the consumption of human flesh is powerful magic. You take on the essence of the person you eat. I was wondering if possibly that will happen in the song. It was part of pagan rituals. Maybe that's why on skagos they eat the flesh of those they slay.

I find the cannibalism interesting. Especially if some magic gets involved.

[Lord Liam DarkStark]

And the song of ice and fire xD not symon silvertongue's!

[DaveRoid]

So upon reading som dance chapters I noticed how often refrences to cannibalism are made or implied. Everywhere from the children and coldhands to frey pie and skagosi.

Thoughts?

Winter is coming and food is scarce. George is desensitizing us to what is to come.

Some of our favourite heroes might have to indulge on meat pies often... and we know just the source!

[Lord Liam DarkStark]

Yet again I know winter is coming!!!! I know why the cannibalism is for survival. With stannis' army or elsewhere in winter. But the point I'm trying to make is, can there be magic involved with the consumption of human flesh? Will we see some rituals with flesh eating. Cause that's what I think happens on skagos. Now that being said in human history consuming human flesh is barbaric and abominadable. But in some cultures it is a powerful way to gain the power of the person you eat. I think its possible george might come up with some ritualistic cannibalism this winter xD

[The Pale Bear]

I think the cannibalism is way too much in adwd and i irritates me (well except for the mighty frey pies way the go manderly ! )

[Ser Endrew Tarth]

I think the cannibalism is way too much in adwd and i irritates me (well except for the mighty frey pies way the go manderly ! )

:agree: I wish someone could ask GRRM "is it sow, or the other white meat that CH feeds to Bran and co.?" so we could at least put that to rest (if he didn't answer ambiguously).

[Lord Liam DarkStark]

I agree. I think there is alot more to the whole humans eating flesh thing. If what happens on skagos is ritual. Or if bran really did eat jojen. That means the consumption of human flesh could be a whole other magic. Its an ancient magic in a lot of tribal societies. Consuming the power of another human...like jojen giving bran his gift. I'm not sure if we will learn more about the whole magic cannibalism. But I do find the reaccuring theme of cannibalism off putting besides those frey pies! I hope there are more of those coming!

[redriver]

Titus Andronicus did it better.

[hotweaselsoup]

I agree. I think there is alot more to the whole humans eating flesh thing. If what happens on skagos is ritual. Or if bran really did eat jojen. That means the consumption of human flesh could be a whole other magic. Its an ancient magic in a lot of tribal societies. Consuming the power of another human...like jojen giving bran his gift. I'm not sure if we will learn more about the whole magic cannibalism. But I do find the reaccuring theme of cannibalism off putting besides those frey pies! I hope there are more of those coming!

Dany eats the stallion's heart, so that its strength would go to her unborn child.

Wildlings are said to drink the blood of their enemies from skull cups. (Mors wants Mance's skull so he can do just that.)

The crows and ravens are constantly feasting on corpses, most especially the eyes. The implication is that they may be gaining some sort of knowledge by consuming this flesh.

Besides the simplest equation - eating allows you to convert someone/something else's energy into your own, I do think that it's possible that other, more magical things might be transferred as well in ASoIaF.

Lapsed or not, GRRM was raised in the Catholic faith, and I'm sure the Eucharist resonated with him - the idea of eating the blood and body of Christ to create a communion with the divine.

[TheWanderer]

Food for thought (pun wholeheartedly (ooh another one) intended): If cannibalism does (or can) hold religious/magical significance in this verse, what has Manderly brought into himself by consuming the Freys?

Cannibalism does seem to be part and parcel of the old faith (or Old Faith) practiced in the North. The Skagosi (who I will discuss because as a semi-civilized island nation are most likely to have maintained the old faith) seem to practice endocannibalism, which is the eating of your own dead rather than enemy dead (exocannibalism), which has typically be practiced as a way to maintain the strength of a tribe or group (ie. the strength of the lost member is returned into the survivors, leaving the tribe at the same level it started at), rather than increase it. This has interesting implications for its use in magic rituals, as it is not really a way to increase the wielders power. Of course a society which has no problems with eating their own dead is may have fewer compunctions about doing other things to the bodies of their enemies. Blood sacrifices are specifically mentioned as being part of the old faith which leads me to believe that while the cannibalism practiced amongst the northmen is culturally/spiritually significant it is not religious/magical in nature or purpose. One sacrifices to the Old Gods for aid, one consumes the fallen to sustain the tribe.

Also, just a point. The Children are not human (shocking I know) which means them eating people is not cannibalism. If the bones and the paste are meant to be human than it represents (to me at least) more of a gulf between them and humanity rather than magically-motivated cannibalism. And giving Bran the paste (assuming it is human) is them divorcing him from what he was, human and weak, to make him more like them, strong but inhuman.

[Lord Liam DarkStark]

I wouldn't say that bran is inhuman. He is more than a normal everyday human. But him consuming human flesh is cannibalism. And the old gods actually frown upon man eating the flesh of man, if you believe varamyr's prologue. When he speaks to being an abomination. I don't think the frey pies have magical significance. And most of the stories told about wildlings are lies. Not all though. I understand that in winter supplies are low so eating the dead may be needed to sustain yourself. But I think there is another aspect to cannibalism in the story where we will see more ritual cannibalism more than just blood sacrifice.

[alienarea]

There could also be a connection between cannibalism and "the bones remember". And maybe the North remembers because the Northerners eat the bones.

IIRC eating the marrow is popular in ritualistic cannibalism - wasn't that what happened to Magellan?

[Lord Liam DarkStark]

There could also be a connection between cannibalism and "the bones remember". And maybe the North remembers because the Northerners eat the bones.

IIRC eating the marrow is popular in ritualistic cannibalism - wasn't that what happened to Magellan?

Yeah it was something crazy like that. He deserved it though. He put that crew through hell and then took them to savage places throught the south pacific. Cannibalism was still ritual there until 1979

[TheWanderer]

I wouldn't say that bran is inhuman. He is more than a normal everyday human.

He is human at the moment. I was more wondering what he will become. The Children are changing him, they're just doing it slowly. Bryden was human once, I wouldn't say he still is. Certainly not physically and seemingly not mentally/spiritually/morally.

And the old gods actually frown upon man eating the flesh of man, if you believe varamyr's prologue. When he speaks to being an abomination.

The Skagosi are followers of the Old Gods, I mentioned in my previous post that I thought they would likely maintain a version of the faith closest to the old ways, and they practice cannibalism. Varamyr is speaking specifically about the act of hunting and eating humans while in the body of a beast. This is miles away from the assumed Skagosi practice of eating their own dead. The Old Gods might, or might not (remember that Bran has done this and has not yet suffered for it), frown upon a warg hunting humans but it seems self evident that they do not frown upon human sacrifice and cannibalism.

I don't think the frey pies have magical significance.

Okay... I'm going to be honest and say that I'm not sure what you're hoping for out of this thread. I thought it was about the potential future implications of ritual cannibalism, so I floated the idea that the Manderly's (and several others) have already taken part in the single biggest verifiable, on-screen act of cannibalism and what that could mean for them.

And most of the stories told about wildlings are lies. Not all though.

Right. So we have to either assume the stories about cannibalism are true (but perhaps exaggerated) or that they are false. And if they are false then there is no point in including them in a discussion about ritualized cannibalism. And if they are not included in this discussion then there is nothing else. The Wildlings (and Skagosi, who are basically Wildlings) are the only groups to even be accused of ritualized cannibalism. If you want to discuss the possibility of ritualized cannibalism appearing in the story, then they are the only groups that can present it. So the existence of ritual cannibalism in the story hinges on the claims about the Wildlings (and Skagosi) being true.

But I think there is another aspect to cannibalism in the story where we will see more ritual cannibalism more than just blood sacrifice.

Where do you think we will see it then? I discussed why I figured Skagosi religious practices would not include ritual cannibalism as a form of blood-magic. You dismissed that idea, without discussion, but have not presented an alternative point of view.

For the record: if this sounded accusatory or angry I apologize. I'm not mad, just confused. I was hoping for a discussion, if that's not what you want then, having presented my thoughts, I will vanish into the night (like some sort of man masquerading as a winged nocturnal mammal)

[Lord Liam DarkStark]

No I meant that by general points of veiw cannabilism is frowned upon. Now the skagosii are completely different. As we have learned throught the series with their rebellious ways. I've pointed it out actually several times through the thread that I think the skagosii eat people for more than just sustinance..my thoughts of this are because of what they did to the people of skane. Its not all known what they did but it sounded as if the feasted upon them..because of their canabalistic ways....also I just see the frey pie as a form of revenge. Feeding the freys to the northmen and their relatives. I dont think it was some insane way to becoming as powerful as a frey.

[TheWanderer]

Now the skagosii are completely different. As we have learned throught the series with their rebellious ways.

I wouldn't really call them completely different. They seem to be more of a hybridization between the 'civilized' North and the Wildlings. So they're more barbaric and brutal than most northmen (would admit to being) but have Houses and seats and banners and the like.

I've pointed it out actually several times through the thread that I think the skagosii eat people for more than just sustinance..

And I agree completely.

my thoughts of this are because of what they did to the people of skane. Its not all known what they did but it sounded as if the feasted upon them..because of their canabalistic ways....

Interesting. If that's the case (and thinking back it certainly seems possible) than it kind of blows my whole endocannibalism point out of the water. Assuming they Skagosi did eat the Skanes (the males at least, I believe another option was presented for the women and children) then the important question is did they eat all of them, or just the warriors. Eating an entire islands worth of people is quite a challenging task and it seems like there would've been more meat available than what could reasonably be required by the warriors. This suggests to me that some of the meat would've been transported back to Skagos. This then becomes highly unusual, most acts of ritualized cannibalism (particularly warfare versions) require it to be preformed relatively swiftly. What would be the Skagosi motive for this massive act of cannibalism, and is it the same as their reason for starting the war? It doesn't seem likely that it was a revenge attack, the Skanes were a small enough group that they likely wouldn't have been able to pose a sufficient threat. This leaves either religious or practical reasons. Practical reasons being the need for food obviously. I don't see this as being a primary driver, there have to be easier sources of meat (and if not wouldn't you be better of only killing some of them so you could do it on a regular basis) but it could've become a motivating factor latter on. With the men all involved in this, seemingly pretty large scale, war fishing and hunting would've likely dropped of significantly. Religiously, there doesn't seem to be much motivator for the war itself though cultural beliefs about a warriors strength could've easily motivated the post-war cannibalism.

Personally I'm of the opinion that the Skagosi didn't eat all the Skanes, simply that they beat them in the field (probably ate the dead there) and then enslaved and oppressed the rest into forgetting their Skane heritage. Also, the White Walkers are a possible contributing factor here. They might've killed the Skanes themselves, or they might've turned and the Skagosi did what was necessary to stop them.

also I just see the frey pie as a form of revenge. Feeding the freys to the northmen and their relatives. I dont think it was some insane way to becoming as powerful as a frey.

I agree that that wasn't the intention, but that doesn't mean it can't become a side-effect. I don't think Beric's goal was to create a murderous zombie beast but that's what he made. The magic of this world doesn't always work to its wielders desires, if (and it is a big if) cannibalism has power in this verse than regardless of his intentions Manderly has activated that power. Personally I don't think it will make him a super-Frey but it might make him even more devious, cut-throat and despicable.

[hotweaselsoup]

I wouldn't really call them completely different. They seem to be more of a hybridization between the 'civilized' North and the Wildlings. So they're more barbaric and brutal than most northmen (would admit to being) but have Houses and seats and banners and the like.

And I agree completely.

Interesting. If that's the case (and thinking back it certainly seems possible) than it kind of blows my whole endocannibalism point out of the water. Assuming they Skagosi did eat the Skanes (the males at least, I believe another option was presented for the women and children) then the important question is did they eat all of them, or just the warriors. Eating an entire islands worth of people is quite a challenging task and it seems like there would've been more meat available than what could reasonably be required by the warriors. This suggests to me that some of the meat would've been transported back to Skagos. This then becomes highly unusual, most acts of ritualized cannibalism (particularly warfare versions) require it to be preformed relatively swiftly. What would be the Skagosi motive for this massive act of cannibalism, and is it the same as their reason for starting the war? It doesn't seem likely that it was a revenge attack, the Skanes were a small enough group that they likely wouldn't have been able to pose a sufficient threat. This leaves either religious or practical reasons. Practical reasons being the need for food obviously. I don't see this as being a primary driver, there have to be easier sources of meat (and if not wouldn't you be better of only killing some of them so you could do it on a regular basis) but it could've become a motivating factor latter on. With the men all involved in this, seemingly pretty large scale, war fishing and hunting would've likely dropped of significantly. Religiously, there doesn't seem to be much motivator for the war itself though cultural beliefs about a warriors strength could've easily motivated the post-war cannibalism.

Personally I'm of the opinion that the Skagosi didn't eat all the Skanes, simply that they beat them in the field (probably ate the dead there) and then enslaved and oppressed the rest into forgetting their Skane heritage. Also, the White Walkers are a possible contributing factor here. They might've killed the Skanes themselves, or they might've turned and the Skagosi did what was necessary to stop them.

I agree that that wasn't the intention, but that doesn't mean it can't become a side-effect. I don't think Beric's goal was to create a murderous zombie beast but that's what he made. The magic of this world doesn't always work to its wielders desires, if (and it is a big if) cannibalism has power in this verse than regardless of his intentions Manderly has activated that power. Personally I don't think it will make him a super-Frey but it might make him even more devious, cut-throat and despicable.

Info on Skagos from the text:

"The island sat at the mouth of the Bay of Seals, massive and mountainous, a stark and forbidding land peopled by savages. They lived in caves and grim mountain fastnesses, Sam had read, and rode great shaggy unicorns to war. Skagos meant "stone" in the Old Tongue. The Skagosi named themselves the stoneborn, but their fellow northmen called them Skaggs and liked them little. Only a hundred years ago Skagos had risen in rebellion. Their revolt had taken years to quell and claimed the life of the Lord of Winterfell and hundreds of his sworn swords. Some songs said the Skaggs were cannibals; supposedly their warriors ate the hearts and livers of the men they slew. In ancient days, the Skagosi had sailed to the nearby isle of Skane, seized its women, slaughtered its men, and ate them on a pebbled beach in a feast that lasted for a fortnight. Skane remained unpeopled to this day."